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Golluk posted:Never really did any negotiating, the number that came out was a 13.5% increase. So yeah for that. Of course it probably means I'm underpaid if I'm getting raises like that without having to change jobs or negotiate. Something D Eisenhower said really resonated with me when I posted here a year or two ago. Basically I was underpaid and found a job that paid way beyond my mental target. I tried to negotiate, b/c I learned you should always negotiate, but had already made a lot of mistakes in the process so they wouldn't move from the first offer. I posted here asking if I should keep going with negotiation and the advice was that I should stop and just take the job. The new job totally changed my life's trajectory and happiness. Don't let "more" trap you. Thats a nice increase, you should be happy / proud. Whether or not you could have asked for more, or if you're underpaid is separate from this positive event.
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Aug 11, 2016 18:03
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:No - you need an offer to convince yourself what you're worth so you can ask for it confidently. And I mean confirm you're actually not making the market wage, yes? Because maybe that data is flawed. Another line of thought. Assuming you can't get better pay If you like your job but can confirm you're paid less than market, you could use that knowledge in negotiation for more PTO or other noncash benefits.
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Aug 22, 2016 19:29
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I've seen my own company speed up an offer package because a highly desirable candidate let their recruiter know there is another offer on the table and they need to decide within a short time period. Thats when someone is already at the end of the process, maybe they would speed up the interviews too, IDK I'm not involved enough. I cannot say if its only something done for the unicorns or if other firms behave the same, because my sample size is too small.
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Sep 19, 2016 19:55
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Just want to reinforce this. People play the game they want; if they don't disclose salary up front they want to play the negotiation game. Do you think there's a reason that most workers' wages have stagnated or not kept pace with inflation while a privileged few are making bank? I always knew Unions raised worker bargaining power by resolving that "100 people behind you" problem but now i'm wondering how much is also gained because (i think?) these organizations employee professional negotiators.
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Sep 30, 2016 19:56
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Sundae posted:No matter how you look at it, you dodged a bullet here. Seriously. If it helps: my first job was at a place that severely underpaid and underinvested. They generally treated people quite poorly. I discovered through friendships at the company that they were so cheap, the HR system was configured to automatically reject any application that was not in the prescribed salary range. Hiring managers never even got to see those apps. It sucks but I have seen first hand how hiring / recruiting can mirror the business culture. Where I work now, a wonderful company, basically laughed in my face when I asked for more money. I don't know if I've ever gotten a stronger "lol. no." outside of trying to get a date in middle school. Still hired me though. And then when I proved a great performer, they ended up giving me more than I asked for from the start.
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Oct 13, 2016 19:46
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Im not a pro so I feel a little uncomfortably answering but: It's way lower stakes than a job but I felt like I was getting too many yes answers for negotiations. So I got on eBay and made low ball offers on things I might want but don't need, just to see what happens. Actually looking for a rejection. I Got a pretty firm no and counter offer on almost everything. Once someone actually accepted my low offer so idk motivated seller or I could have gone lower. So, idk as long as your respectful, it seems like no big deal to just accept their offer.
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Oct 24, 2016 23:03
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Come to the travel thread in this very forum, mon petit garçon. It's mostly status and hotel nonsense right now but if you ask good questions you will get good answers. Don't bother reading the whole thing. +1 when I started traveling for work it was very helpful.
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Dec 25, 2016 05:12
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Namarrgon posted:I'm not American and our pension system works differently, so forgive my ignorance; what is a vesting period? Does your money disappear in the void if you leave before the end of it? Do you get it paid out in cash instead of bothering with the 401k? What is the point of it anyway, from the company's perspective; they either give you the money or they don't, why would they care if it goes directly to your bank account or to your 401k? Vesting: You work somewhere for X time and now you change jobs. You keep any money you put in personally. So say you put in 5k and they match 100% (woot) for 10k total value. Your company match is multiplied by whatever percentage corresponds to your year on the job for the vesting schedule of your company. Let's say two years vests 50%. Your 5k plus half of theirs so 2.5k for 7.5k. The other 50% 2.5k I don't know exactly where it goes but the company keeps it in some way. So they care because they've kept the money. It's also expensive to hire and train people, so encouraging people to stick around is a plus for the company. although, my opinion, someone riding out time for a 40k isn't going to be the type of retention you want.
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Feb 11, 2017 21:51
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from the company side: I have seen us accelerate the process if someone needs to make a decision soon and we're likely to make an offer. I don't get enough detail to know how it affects negotiations. I guess someone overplaying that position to apply pressure would get dinged for jerk behavior but I think thats happened like..once?
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Mar 2, 2017 18:19
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Goodpancakes posted:Well I went with "I am not comfortable sharing this information which my prior employers consider private. I much rather prefer to focus on the value I would bring to company instead" or similar and it worked fine. I was in a similar position and asked for more. They said "lol no" so I took the job as stated and it was fine. Just a personal experience but I'm glad I asked because it gave me more confidence in just putting it out there.
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Apr 13, 2017 01:58
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:I was not considering going solo, more curious about what is the average Nx? I realize that's a question with a lot of different answers and may not be worthwhile. For most places|people as you get promotions and raises you get more of your billing rate anyway. So might as well negotiate for those things in the usual way. I don't think anyone would adjust your % of billing $ directly, if only because it's an HR and accounting nightmare. It would make sense to ask if you were doing some kind of work where there might be a huge variance in reward, so you end up at like 100:1 or something crazy. But jobs like that usually do big bonuses for those kind of circumstances, I guess. I did some napkin math on salaries and I don't think 4.25 is robbery. Assuming you're getting healthcare and not like buying your own equipment etc etc. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 15:34
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Could you be a lead or senior analyst? I don't know your COL or industry too well but that pay sounds at the upper end of most analyst jobs, double or more even depending on context maybe adding a modifier makes sense to show progression and ability?
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May 4, 2017 17:09
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I'm not a negotiation pro but I would like to comment on the pay for training question. I think I've posted this here before but not in a while: my first job paid below market for my field, but i took it because it had some good training opportunities and the bosses were willing to basically trade experience for $$. I worked there 2 years and left for greener pastures. Eventually, I made 150% more at a vastly more prestigious company all within five years post school. I have some friends who had similar chances but took the BNA of living at home and holding out for better. I don't think any of them are particularly happy with their lives. You gotta know what you're worth and usually it's more than they will offer to pay you. BUT sometimes I think you need to be realistic and strategic and take an opportunity because it will get you to the next one.
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May 11, 2017 20:18
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I hate posting any advice here because I feel so underqualified but it doesn't seem to me like taking a COLA adjustment this year stops you from negotiating next year. Seems like we usually talk about 1 time events. I would be curious what the pros think about this stuff when it's multiple "rounds" like a yearly adjustment conversations at the same place. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 13:01
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since you're in tech, can you look look for an all remote job? Even picking up remote contracts might give you more leverage in the local market. I don't know enough to give more helpful input but if it's an angle you've never considered, maybe look into it?
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Aug 26, 2018 17:47
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I mean jobs that still count as local. Nominally still under contract or as an employee in your home market.
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Aug 26, 2018 19:06
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Every large city and even most smaller ones have software developer communities. Anyone who feels like they aren't a "real" dev, I highly recommend getting out and participating in a community or two. If you really do have holes you'll fill them and if you don't you'll realize you're just as good as anyone. Usually it's people with similar interests too and it's nice to make friends.
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Aug 31, 2018 18:25
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If it's a large operation, it's possible HR and your prospective unit are misaligned enough that you could appeal to the hiring manager. They might be able to push for a better deal. It's also possible that they're so screwed up hr controls the hiring over the people who actually know the job, which has somehow become common. In that case... F-them. I wouldn't move cities for a place acting like that if there are any other options.
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Sep 8, 2018 15:19
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Def *ask* but be prepared for them to decline and then you do the extra job for a bit to parlay into a better paying/higher position elsewhere* with the experience. * Assuming your industry has that kind of fluidity. If it's very difficult to change jobs, maybe you do just say "nope" idk.
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Sep 19, 2018 15:19
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not an expert negotiator but I have started not agreeing to anything big in the same call/conversation it is proposed. I guess I would if it was like way past my expected top of range offer but that hasn't happened yet. I have to talk to my wife, let me think about it overnight, I'll ask my cat. Whatever. Everyone has been fine with this response that I can't decide right now. ...You could also try what my friend does. He negotiates daily for his job and once a year attends a timeshare pitch to practice saying "no" over and over under huge psychological pressure.
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Oct 27, 2018 16:39
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teardrop posted:I currently make 60k but my market is probably 70+. I’m probably qualified for experienced positions and those can pay 85+. I think I have a good chance of getting an experienced position that pays more. Still, a bird in the hand... Devil's advocate: if market is 70+ and they're paying 70 then they're market. Are you being honest with yourself regarding those more experienced positions? Keeping in mind that it's very difficult to get hired up a level
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Nov 5, 2018 23:26
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You could always ask and maybe they give you a small bump to keep things going smoothly but you don't have a viable alternative. Flip it around: why would you pay someone more for no particular reason?
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Nov 27, 2018 21:50
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Dik Hz posted:Make sure to have a minimum number of hours too. No matter how much you ask for, it's not really worth it if you only get 1-2 hours out of it. Caveat that I am not an individual contractor but people who are have said charging by the week or full day can help with this kind of thing.
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Jan 16, 2019 00:50
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Assuming we're talking about a salary in the typical for posters here range, 15k under a target seems like a walk away unless you've got other reasons to need that job.
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Feb 16, 2019 06:10
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pokie posted:Go to glassdoor.com and search for senior or principal software engineer in Boston. Aim for substantially higher than average. Does Glassdoor skew low or is this for anchoring? I'm not the op of that question but I checked on Glassdoor and his 185 looked a good deal higher than the Glassdoor average.
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Apr 18, 2019 20:24
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Another note of travel: it really does effect your health. Even doing things right in regards to habits and maintenance, I felt 5 years younger after I quit my travel job. I'm sort of glad I did it. Gave me opportunities I wouldn't have had, but it's kind of like being an athlete. Don't assume you'll make the long hall, know when it's over, and have an exit strategy for when you're out.
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Aug 10, 2019 14:37
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Cacafuego posted:Ehh, just like anything in life, a job with travel is better for some, less for others based on your individual situation. Pretty much everything KYOON said up there is relevant. I'm pushing back on this because I too remained disciplined with my health and still experienced the effects I was describing. People are built differently and responses are not always in our control.
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Aug 16, 2019 00:24
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Zauper posted:Yeah, the stigma definitely hasn't changed from the employer side. From the employee side there is less concern about it because it happens more often, but it is still definitely something that employers look at when considering candidates. A recruiter once (I assume accidentally) sent me the internal requirements for a job. One of those spam low quality email blasts. It was illuminating: It was a 6 month contract position and they required applicants to have no less than 2 years year average tenure in their previous 5 jobs. So, you don't qualify for that position... If you take that position. This is also in tech where it's hard enough to find good people. I can only assume the tenure thing was tacked on by some clueless HR manager or something.
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Sep 11, 2019 16:37
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silvergoose posted:At a good company it means you don't get a vacation day payout when you leave, so the company isn't carrying that liability on its sheets. I work at a place that has unlimited vacation. They track PTO and give reports to managers for people who have -not- taken time off in a while or not taken enough PTO. It's included in managerial reviews as well. They started doing this after a year of unlimited pto data showed a drop in vacation time, which was not the intent. if you look into the details of an unlimited setup, you can see what they're up to.
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Sep 27, 2019 17:35
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I'd value not needing to deal with airports and airlines at >2k so congrats even w/o any bonuses.
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Sep 27, 2019 20:20
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I want to add something to this conversation: In my masters program, I had a class in negotiations, which I was excited for as a long-time follower of the thread. It was eye-opening how poorly I did in some of the exercises. It was also fascinating to see how some classmates with more experience could take people's lunch money. I came away a better negotiator but also with a lot of humility for how little I know.
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Oct 9, 2019 19:34
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Let's see, idk if any of this will surprise anyone: The concepts are similar to what we discuss here: batna, reserve price, the zone of agreement, etc. How the stronger your batna, the more you can command. Don't give away your reserve price. Basics. Along with the cases, we had a midterm that was pretty much a routine school test. I got an A+ just off of reading this thread for a few years lol. A lot of value here, given away for free. We talked a lot about distributive v integrative negotiations. Aka cutting up a pie vs. making the pie bigger. I was very good at integrative and bad at distributive. Basically: smart but too nice. I improved towards the end, but I have to remind myself to be more firm/aggressive when it is necessary. The most interesting and hardest negotiations were when we had both types inside the framework. Discovering each other's interests but then dividing them up. This is where the experienced people shined because they knew when to collaborate and when to get theirs. I also noticed that they were better at estimating the other side's reserve. For example, one guy was an officer in Afghanistan before discharge. He learned a lot negotiating with tribal leaders. Hard to come away as the winner sitting across from him. One thing we don't talk about too much here is the cognitive biases. For example, the power of anchoring. You really really should ask for a million $ as an opening for a job. poo poo even just working a big number into unrelated conversations. Vice versa, too: I can see now how HR uses these things to push offers lower. There's a book called "influence" by Robert Cialdini that I think *everyone* should read. For texts, We primarily used two books: "getting to yes" and "negotiation genius". I think both come up in our thread. However, it became clear to me that negotiating is more like a sport or music. You need a lot of reps and real practice to be any good and really all the academics are secondary. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Oct 9, 2019 |
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Oct 9, 2019 20:32
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My own thoughts (not taught to me by a phd so reader beware!) are that a big reason HR hiring practices are often so torturous is to try to wash those human fallacies out of their side and use them to get better deals from prospects. Like when you name a salary on a form: you give away not only your probable reserve but anchor at the lowest end of the conversation. Terrible! Or when your comp negotiations go through various business rules and levels: they're trying to negate the biases that could have been created "in the room". Same thought for why your boss can't just give you a raise. NOT saying they're smart/evil enough to be doing it intentionally but using the accumulated knowledge from the job and best practices learned through training.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:13
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Oh I forgot to mention an important point. Remembered when i that post above: It was really, really obvious who prepared for a negotiation. Even a bad negotiator well prepared did much better than folks who were stronger but checked out that week. it really drilled into me how you need to do your research, think about their perspective and know your numbers. Again, a lot of sport/ performance analogies.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:27
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Each side has a role with their perspective and issues they value. Sometimes dollars sometimes points to represent your interest. An example: Person A issue #1 Option 1 500 Option 2 400 Option 3 300 Person B issue #1 Option 1 200 Option 2 300 Option 3 400 There is also a batna for if you don't make a deal. Like no-deal = 100. Batnas were lower than the deal but not always symmetrical. So if you played too hard you get your batna and get a lower score than someone who made a deal. However, because batnas are not symmetrical, that could be a worse outcome for one side so they need a better deal to not walk away. In this case, each side wants something different, but person A cares more. It's an overall lower value deal to split the difference. If B is smart, they give A option 1, probably in exchange for their big issue. Sometimes each side wants the same thing. sometimes it's equal values but different wants, so someone is going to take more benefit. You make your deal, and the instructor tallies the overall deal score and determines how each side did. For ours, she also applied a z-score since we were being judged against each other with a variety of different cases. Within each scenario, there are also unique details. Like one we were only permitted to send emails, no f2f or phone calls, another one person is the agent and might not perfectly align with their client. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 17:37
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That's great. Our teacher was very buttoned down so we never got to do anything completely nuts. Closest anyone got was a scenario where you play the board of a company voting on biz issues. One group went totally off script and fired their CEO. I think the guy did a bad job prepping so they decided he was incompetent. It was actually honored in the scoring, CEO got a big fat 0, which was less than his scripted batna lol. I had one where i made up an nda and got my partner to sign so i could tell him something we weren't supposed to reveal. It was more of a joke than a real tactic but in the debrief he actually mentioned i told him! So, i jumped up waving my NDA, demanding my damages. The class loved it but the prof refused to award value bc it was too far outside case parameters.
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Oct 10, 2019 18:17
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bamhand posted:Very cool. I assume the Nash equilibrium rarely gets met in these scenarios, right? And also, your BATNA is hidden to the other party? Is there some set up for what you're negotiating about, or is it completely abstracted into numbers? Always a setup/case. Like you're doing a play or maybe improv. Once we reached the back half of the class, you had to build your values. So if you didn't prep right, it was pretty much impossible to evaluate a deal. We covered some game theory stuff, including nash equilibrium, but, tbh, I've forgotten it, so can't say. Batna hidden *usually*. I was irritated by one case due to this issue. It was a mock job negotiation, and the company side role HAD the applicant's existing salary. So they knew the batna. The story was that your character had provided it previously. As a loyal reader of this thread, i bitched quite a bit about that, but part of the lesson was information asymmetry. I also raised my eyebrow on how the only time information was that skewed was when a job applicant was set up to fail — maybe reading too much into it... Edit: a deal was always better than no-deal, but it wasn't always the same level of bad. A side batna = 100 B side batna = 300 So "A" is going to be willing to take a worse deal for themselves than "B," giving B more leverage. However, both parties would probably be able to earn like 900 points through some agreement, because it's a lame exercise if one side is overwhelmingly strong and can lean too hard on their batna. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 18:42
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Contract agencies can be pretty scummy. If you're only talking to them they may be the source of the bs. But if they're paying you the point stands about this being a red flag. Just might explain the company being cool but this experience going poorly.
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Oct 10, 2019 22:39
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Bring the 105 to company A and see if they'll match? Have you worked with offshore before? Are you ok with weird schedules? Cultural issues? International travel to build rapport?
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Oct 18, 2019 21:39
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I have never found it enjoyable. Even when the offshore team is good, it's a slog uphill getting stuff done. Unfortunately, often, the offshore team is not good, and it's really a tough ride. When you're the manager, a lot more stuff becomes your problem. You may have experienced this stuff below but it's my experiences and observations after a few years working with offshore or adjacent to it: Timezone differences make calls at weird hours pretty common. The distance narrows communication bands, so you're never sure if you understand each other. Also, if everyone understands the language, cultural stuff catches you from odd angles. It helps a lot in building rapport to visit their office, hence my note on travel. If it's project/client work, it can also be quite isolating. You are not fully a part of either team and do a lot of advocating and translating. Also, if it's offshore for cost reasons, its often commodity work( or seen as such by the client), so they're looking to squeeze as much as possible out of their dollar. That means squeezing you and your team. A lot of these businesses/projects I've seen seem to run on burning out middle managers trying to make it all work. Not that anyone admits it. I'm not saying you don't take it. They're paying more, and maybe the firm has a good handle on how to do these things well. Perhaps you can get more info on how they operate or talk to someone currently in the role or who recently left?
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Oct 18, 2019 22:36
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