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Karmalis posted:Asking out of ignorance, how would they be such champs in that? Western Muslims are generally way more likely to become sympathetic to jihadist ideology than Muslims anywhere else, statistically. There's well established networks and militant Imam's that reach recruits, and their message obviously resonates with disaffected Muslims living in the West, although it's still an extremely small part of the overall Muslim population in Western countries. As far as why Belgium has such higher rates than other major jihadist hubs in Europe, I couldn't tell you. There's obviously something though, because they are a pretty big outlier.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:11
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nimby posted:Belgium as a country is pretty racist. Doesn't help that we're happy letting Muslims have their own, semi-detached culture in some cities. Result is little dialog and lots of racism from both sides. Most euro countries have been getting steadily more racist since the 2000-aughts, but it's worth noting that our press and governments are much worse than our citizens on average. How sure is "definitely" when it's on the radio?
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Mar 22, 2016 10:13
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Radio 1 here is mostly conservative when it comes to reporting and they get the info front he police, as far as I can tell.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:15
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Lagotto posted:Can we can the victim blaming for at least one day? Does an entire country count as "a victim"?
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Mar 22, 2016 10:18
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Volkerball posted:Western Muslims are generally way more likely to become sympathetic to jihadist ideology than Muslims anywhere else, statistically. There's well established networks and militant Imam's that reach recruits, and their message obviously resonates with disaffected Muslims living in the West, although it's still an extremely small part of the overall Muslim population in Western countries. As far as why Belgium has such higher rates than other major jihadist hubs in Europe, I couldn't tell you. There's obviously something though, because they are a pretty big outlier. Lots of factors, but one that comes to mind is letting the Saudis sponsor Wahhabi mosques in Brussels.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:18
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Volkerball posted:Western Muslims are generally way more likely to become sympathetic to jihadist ideology than Muslims anywhere else, statistically. There's well established networks and militant Imam's that reach recruits, and their message obviously resonates with disaffected Muslims living in the West, although it's still an extremely small part of the overall Muslim population in Western countries. As far as why Belgium has such higher rates than other major jihadist hubs in Europe, I couldn't tell you. There's obviously something though, because they are a pretty big outlier. Belgium is kinda nice for terrorist cells since it's as close to a failed state as you get in Western Europe.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:21
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Deltasquid posted:Nothing that I can think of. Salah Abdeslam was arrested recently so maybe they decided to act sooner rather than later. Airports are pretty crowded and I read that they blew up the American Airlines desk specifically, but can't confirm that. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 10:24
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Deltasquid posted:Lots of factors, but one that comes to mind is letting the Saudis sponsor Wahhabi mosques in Brussels.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:26
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UncleSmoothie posted:Does an entire country count as "a victim"? Yes. What is it with people here? The situation is still unfolding and the first reaction out of you autists is ~bu-bu-but racism!!! Please just all shut the hell up and wait for the news reports before getting into this knee jerk b/s again.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:26
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Lagotto posted:Yes. What is it with people here? The situation is still unfolding and the first reaction out of you autists is ~bu-bu-but racism!!! Please just all shut the hell up and wait for the news reports before getting into this knee jerk b/s again. Someone asked why someone would attack Belgium. Someone responded saying they have a lot more radicals than other countries. Someone wondered why that is. People responded with the most common theories. What are they supposed to do, not answer them?
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Mar 22, 2016 10:29
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It's not that they hate Belgium in particular, it's that Belgium is the loving world champ in radicalizing its Muslim population. There is racism in Belgium, and thus  Where, exactly, are you going with this?
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Mar 22, 2016 10:30
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Lagotto posted:Can we can the victim blaming for at least one day? lilljonas posted:Belgium is kinda nice for terrorist cells since it's as close to a failed state as you get in Western Europe. Lagotto posted:Yes. What is it with people here? The situation is still unfolding and the first reaction out of you autists is ~bu-bu-but racism!!! Please just all shut the hell up and wait for the news reports before getting into this knee jerk b/s again.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:31
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Lagotto posted:Yes. What is it with people here? The situation is still unfolding and the first reaction out of you autists is ~bu-bu-but racism!!! Please just all shut the hell up and wait for the news reports before getting into this knee jerk b/s again. Yeah, shut up and stop posting discussion in the debate and discussion forum you autists 
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Mar 22, 2016 10:31
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UncleSmoothie posted:Does an entire country count as "a victim"? In acts of terrorism, yes. UncleSmoothie posted:Yeah, shut up and stop posting discussion in the debate and discussion forum you autists "If you racists didn't want to be murdered, maybe you should have been perfect paragons of progressive virtues, like me, the stupid poster" is not a discussion, it's just jerking off from a high horse on imagined filthy peasants. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 10:31
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Pesmerga posted:This is going to get very ugly very quickly. Friends based in Belgium who have always been very tolerant and progressive are starting to talk about the 'enemy in our midst'. I don't like where this is going. Terrorism works incredibly well. All this talk of "well statistically you are more likely to die of a car accident blah blah blah" is fine on paper. Seeing pictures of commuters with their guts all over the floor and bodies missing limbs changes minds pretty quickly.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:32
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Kaislioc posted:Someone asked why someone would attack Belgium. Someone responded saying they have a lot more radicals than other countries. Someone wondered why that is. People responded with the most common theories. What are they supposed to do, not answer them? Exactly, it's a very old discussion and can only lead to the standard loving slapfights we've sern ten times over. Would be nice to have a day to actually get some picture of what is happening.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:32
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Toplowtech posted:They may have been hibernating, waiting Judging by pictures, the Zaventem explosion hit the left side of the check in terminal, near rows 3-4. From my experience, those are the check in counters for Brussels Airline, not American Airlines. However, at the moment of the blasts, check in would have been open for the flight to NYC which is a codeshare with United Airlines. A Buttery Pastry posted:Pretty much. I'm not sure if they even have any anti-radicalization efforts going on, given how dysfunctional the country is. They had one, which was run privately by one of the most prominent anti-Jihadi experts. And then the police arrested and brutalized him because he had copies of his book The Jihad Caravan in his car. Fragrag fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 10:34
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A Buttery Pastry posted:
I'm pretty sure there's actions going on after the Paris bombings, but with a civil society divided among language lines, and institutions such as the police being so fragmented, it's kind of the worst possible conditions. But it's sad how effective these attacks are. My wife was already afraid to travel to other European cities after the Paris attack, so this will definitely not help. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 10:35
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id like very much if you could all put a lot of effort into avoiding making this thread as bad as it's already getting anyway, everything in brussels is down and on lockdown. cell network is close to crashing. stations are being evacuated.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:36
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Belgium is a victim in this case, but the last time it was an enabler. Can you explain why Belgium is so dysfunctional?
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Mar 22, 2016 10:38
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Friend is stuck inside her workplace in Brussels right now. They have no plans of being evacuated out at this moment.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:38
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authorities are advising people to use data communication (whatsapp, facebook, etc) because cell lines are jammed
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Mar 22, 2016 10:38
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Boris Galerkin posted:Friend is stuck inside her workplace in Brussels right now. They have no plans of being evacuated out at this moment.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:40
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Counter-terrorism dude saying that if this was part of Abdeslam's cell, it would be unprecedented. After the first big strike in other attacks, the response has been adequate to shut down the cell before they could attack again. If this group managed to get two, then that's not good news.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:42
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UncleSmoothie posted:Does an entire country count as "a victim"? i do not think it does, personally. at least not in this case. saying that the people who were murdered were wrong for leaving their houses and going to the airport because of their racists attitude towards muslims invites violence would be victim blaming, and also very stupid speculating that belgium as a country has problems with radicalizing its muslim population and this might contribute to a higher concentration of terrorist attacks is not victim blaming, it is looking for an explanation for aberrant, dangerous behavior. i couldn't tell you whether or not this is an accurate assessment of the issue, but the takeaway here is that there might be more complex systemic issues at work creating an environment where violence thrives. it is neither an absolution nor indictment of belgium's policies or the terrorist's actions. in other words, the victims of the attacks are blameless, and this is never in dispute. when people speculate about things like this, it is at a systemic level.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:42
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FourLeaf posted:Can you explain why Belgium is so dysfunctional? Oil quote:Critical media reports, however, stand in stark contrast to the positive self-representation of the Islamic Center. Just days before the Paris attacks, the French daily newspaper "Libération" wrote, "For thirty years, the Great Mosque of Brussels has been an active Salafist refuge, offering fertile soil for their networks to grow." http://www.dw.com/en/brussels-great-mosque-and-ties-with-salafism/a-18866998
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Mar 22, 2016 10:44
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Dazzling Addar posted:i do not think it does, personally. at least not in this case. Well said. Here's an article that expands further on Belgium in particular if anyone is interested in finding out more about it. http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/11/belgium-radical-islam-jihad-molenbeek-isis/416235/
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Mar 22, 2016 10:44
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Here's some confirmed info: Brussels Airport (Zaventem): at around 8 am, 2 explosions, one of which was a suicide attack. At least 13 dead and 35 injured. Metro: At around 9 am bomb in a carriage in Maelbeek station. No official word on wounded/dead atm. Metro in Brussels is closed, some train stations are being closed, entire country is on highest alert level and everyone is asked to stay where they are. We're on complete lockdown it seems. Phone network is completely oversaturated edit: Belga news agency now says 11 dead at the airport, it's pretty chaotic
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Mar 22, 2016 10:46
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All tunnels in Brussels have been closed off as well. Central station in Antwerp's been evacuated - just as a precaution.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:49
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The idea that you can victim blame a country escapes me because I can't think of any productive response to a terrorist attack beyond scrutinising government policy (which is a very broad action anyway and applies to all political views)
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Mar 22, 2016 10:50
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:The idea that you can victim blame a country escapes me because I can't think of any productive response to a terrorist attack beyond scrutinising government policy (which is a very broad action anyway and applies to all political views) We could perhaps scrutinize the government in the afternoon, when the bodies aren't quite as still warm?
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Mar 22, 2016 10:51
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willemw posted:We could perhaps scrutinize the government in the afternoon, when the bodies aren't quite as still warm? With all respect, if we aren't going to discuss anything of substance, then this thread just turns into a memorial wall of people posting their thoughts and prayers etc. That's a lovely and admirable sentiment but not exactly titilating reading. Maybe it would be more sensible if those who aren't ready to discuss the subject should stay away from discussion threads about it.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:58
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:The idea that you can victim blame a country escapes me because I can't think of any productive response to a terrorist attack beyond scrutinising government policy (which is a very broad action anyway and applies to all political views) I'd scrutinize the attackers first, but that's just me.
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Mar 22, 2016 10:59
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willemw posted:We could perhaps scrutinize the government in the afternoon, when the bodies aren't quite as still warm? What do you propose people post in the Debate and Discussion forum in the interim other than "This is a tragedy and terrorism is bad"? I'm not unsympathetic to thinking analysis of the causes of terrorism is a bit crass when people are still dying in the streets, I just don't know what this leaves the forum to do other than have a moratorium on posting or just post generic condolences.
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Mar 22, 2016 11:01
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steinrokkan posted:I'd scrutinize the attackers first, but that's just me. Can't do both, of course.
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Mar 22, 2016 11:01
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UncleSmoothie posted:With all respect, if we aren't going to discuss anything of substance, then this thread just turns into a memorial wall of people posting their thoughts and prayers etc. That's a lovely and admirable sentiment but not exactly titilating reading. I'm not talking about thoughts and prayers, but it seems a bit stupid to discuss so and so while nobody already knows what happened. I wouldn't call that substance... E: you can do whatever you want, of course
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Mar 22, 2016 11:02
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Dazzling Addar posted:saying that the people who were murdered were wrong for leaving their houses and going to the airport because of their racists attitude towards muslims invites violence would be victim blaming, and also very stupid No, it's insinuating they were wrong to not properly respect the specific cultural sensitivities of some imagined 'Muslim community'. Or the self-evidently moronic notion that someone who blows himself up in a crowd of civilians is just following a path that's the logical endpoint of being microaggressed against by satirical cartoons. It's the suggestion that terrorism of this sort is self-inflicted and condign punishment for passing anti-burqa laws. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 11:03
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Sober and thoughtful discussion of policy-related causes is fine imo I understand concerns about it degenerating into empty anti-racist virtue signalling but that hasn't happened itt yet, so maybe calm down
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Mar 22, 2016 11:08
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10 deaths in Maelbeek metro station, as confirmed by the fire dep
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Mar 22, 2016 11:10
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Firefighters now saying 10 dead in the metro.
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Mar 22, 2016 11:10
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