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There is no contradiction between gender being an integral part of one's identity and being a social construct. A thing does not have to be inextricable from a human to be integral to its wellbeing. Nor is there any reason why modification of the body should not be a solution to a mental problem, if the body proves easier to change than the mind.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:07
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The Kingfish posted:I think that sexual reassignment surgery still has a role even if gender is entirely socially constructed because of the physical aspect of sexual dysphoria. What it does suggest is that gender dysphoria, especially non-binary gender-dysphoria, is a culturally-bound mental illness. So have you started only using the singular "they" to refer to all people in all circumstances, or are you still reinforcing gender roles that you claim not to support? Because otherwise I find it hard to trust that you're being at all honest or consistent in what you say about this subject.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:13
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Cingulate posted:Do you want to change your statement if I tell you that that's not what I'm referring to? it would depend on the study! Why don't you post it and we'll see?
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Apr 2, 2016 19:16
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Majorian posted:it would depend on the study! Why don't you post it and we'll see? But okay, I can post it.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:19
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Cingulate posted:Because this is mostly about intuitions. It is absolutely not about intuitions. It's about evidence and data. Please post yours.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:20
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Majorian posted:It is absolutely not about intuitions. It's about evidence and data. Please post yours.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:27
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Cingulate posted:No - there is some misunderstanding here. I am not going to make a point like, here is a study showing brains of group x are like this, therefore blah. Then you're just wasting people's time here.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:29
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OwlFancier posted:There is no contradiction between gender being an integral part of one's identity and being a social construct. A thing does not have to be inextricable from a human to be integral to its wellbeing. I said innate, not integral.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:33
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The Kingfish posted:I said innate, not integral. I don't think many people would argue that gender is an innate thing, merely that it's a thing beyond the control of an individual. Like sexuality, it doesn't really matter how it forms whether it's genetic or whatever, the point is that 1. We have no way to control it in most people and 2. There's no harm in letting people be whatever sexuality they want other than social harm. The same is true of gender. I mean, whether gender is innate or simply deeply socially ingrained doesn't really matter, you're stuck with it either way. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Apr 2, 2016 |
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Apr 2, 2016 19:35
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OwlFancier posted:I don't think many people would argue that gender is an innate thing, merely that it's a thing beyond the control of an individual. Plus at this point it's pretty much incontrovertibly true that not letting LGBTQ people be themselves does quite a bit of harm to them.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:38
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Brainiac Five posted:Saying that playing with construction vehicles is caused by hormones relies on the assumption that we are genetically programmed to understand what a backhoe is, if we are to use it as evidence that the relationship is "hormones cause masculine play" rather than "hormones cause an internal state that leads to masculine play". That is, what constitutes a masculine toy is so obviously culturally contingent that it's bullshit to use it as evidence that testosterone causes systematizing thinking over testosterone causing an internal state which we bind up with systematizing thinking in a cultural construction of masculinity and maleness. It could just be possible that things that break rocks, make loud, destructive noises, and move a lot of dirt, and set fire to stuff, appeal to a more primitive side of masculinity or aggressive behavior. The backhoe itself is not the important part of such a concept.
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Apr 2, 2016 21:52
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:It could just be possible that things that break rocks, make loud, destructive noises, and move a lot of dirt, and set fire to stuff, appeal to a more primitive side of masculinity or aggressive behavior. The backhoe itself is not the important part of such a concept. All those things are the same thing as the backhoe within the framework of the discussion. Those are ideas that we use to construct an idea like masculinity.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:15
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SHISHKABOB posted:All those things are the same thing as the backhoe within the framework of the discussion. Those are ideas that we use to construct an idea like masculinity. Without complex machinery in the picture, you could still swing a stick or make loud noises and it would appeal to more primitive and possibly masculine traits.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:25
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Majorian posted:Then you're just wasting people's time here. So I take you to assume that there is a masculine brain, and there is a feminine brain, and having a masculine brain means you behave in a certain way different from having a female brain, and the two can be reasonably well distinguished, and there is a clear link between these brains being so and people behaving and experiencing the world as the corresponding gender, in the sense of neuroscience being able to not only diagnose a specific, individual brain as corresponding to male or female gender, and there being some scientifically understood link between brain anatomy and gender, and there being reasonable cause to assume this is not just a result of upbringing, but biologically predetermined?
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Apr 2, 2016 22:33
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Without complex machinery in the picture, you could still swing a stick or make loud noises and it would appeal to more primitive and possibly masculine traits. Ok why is swinging a stick and loud noises primitive and possibly masculine traits.
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Apr 2, 2016 23:57
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SHISHKABOB posted:Ok why is swinging a stick and loud noises primitive and possibly masculine traits. Thought so.
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Apr 3, 2016 00:02
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Cingulate posted:Okay, I think it's helpful to discuss preliminaries first. But okay. Here are my preliminaries: I believe empirical evidence, particularly when there is a broad consensus among scientists who work on this issue. Post your evidence if you want to convince me. This should not be that difficult. In your next post, you need to provide the name of the study that you cited earlier to substantiate your argument. If you do not, and you keep wasting my time, I will ignore you, and this discussion will be over. Understood?
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Apr 3, 2016 00:10
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Majorian posted:Post your evidence if you want to convince me. The study is at 10.1073/pnas.1316909110 , either way, but this will help you little as I am not building any argument in favour of my position on it.
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Apr 3, 2016 00:16
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SHISHKABOB posted:Ok why is swinging a stick and loud noises primitive and possibly masculine traits. They're aggressive behaviors. I think that young boys, or tomboyish females, would be more attracted things that are just intrinsically more aggessive than young boys or girls with more feminine traits. Cingulate posted:Have you ever seen a female iguana do any of these things? I don't quite understand what you are saying. Sulphuric Asshole fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Apr 3, 2016 |
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Apr 3, 2016 00:19
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:They're aggressive behaviors. I think that young boys, or tomboyish females, would be more attracted things that are just intrinsically more aggessive than young boys or girls with more feminine traits.
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Apr 3, 2016 00:31
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Brain structure is malleable eg- Becoming a london taxi drivers distorts the hippocampus. So a diagnostic brain scan wouldn't prove intrinsicness, but would be useful as a reliable basis. More generally, using brain scans to diagnose personality traits/dominant behaviors sounds really interesting, but also really scary. The best things tend to be both though! I think people just want to meet expectations (consciously and subconsciously), and with that concept alone, you can explain a lot. If you know you're seen one way, you'll act that out. The issue now is I think we're in this (necessary) transitional era, where you still have hold overs from the old ways, but they're in conflict with the new ways. These old ideas still exist, but we know they're wrong: it's okay for women to be dominant, but the dick is still seen as a symbol of power (see: pegging), it's okay for men to be less traditionally masculine, but if they are they're seen as lesser-value/need-to-man-up, etc. I think this conflict drives all the gender stuff we see today. But that's just a hypothesis. rudatron fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Apr 3, 2016 |
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Apr 3, 2016 00:42
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Cingulate posted:Evidence for what? You're not paying attention. I have not actually made a substantive claim that could be positively demonstrated; I have said, we lack a clear understanding of what, if any, differences there are. And that argument is one of the most bizarrely incorrect ones I've seen made in this thread - which is saying something. We lack a lot of information about the human brain, but we have quite a bit of knowledge on the difference between cisgender male and female brains, as well as structural differences in transsexual brains that would seem to put them in a different category altogether.
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Apr 3, 2016 00:50
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Majorian posted:And that argument is one of the most bizarrely incorrect ones I've seen made in this thread - which is saying something. We lack a lot of information about the human brain, but we have quite a bit of knowledge on the difference between cisgender male and female brains, as well as structural differences in transsexual brains that would seem to put them in a different category altogether. So you would say there is a category "male-gender brain", and a category "female-gender brain", and you are saying science can distinguish them clearly?
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Apr 3, 2016 00:53
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