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blowfish posted:Everyone should agree this is a good thing. Genitals are a thing people usually have and people shouldn't get too worked up over things everyone has. I dunno. I'm kinda tall and slavic looking, but each time I see a drunk hobo washing his pants in the bathroom sink I'm still a little bit scared inside. I think a lot of woman would find such a situation terrifying and rather resort to adult diapers.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:48
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blowfish posted:Lol what kind of retarded society do you want to live in. And yet, if I were to simply dismiss your post as "dumb poo poo" and refuse to respect it, this would not be meekly accepted by you as the absolute truth. There's a moral in that, if you'd only avail yourself of it, as the Duchess said.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:49
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waitwhatno posted:OK, here is my horrible take on the subject. Ready? Almost all jurisdictions require trans people to live life as the gender they're transitioning towards for a specified period of time before they can change their legal sex. (Some places also require surgery.) So that's a catch-22 -- you're not "living as a woman" very well if you're using men's washrooms or vice-versa. Pro unisex bathrooms though.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:50
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Literally The Worst posted:good thing that is super easy to do in every state and not something that takes a long time during which period you sitll have to use the wrong bathroom Government efficiency. Typical.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:52
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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DeusExMachinima posted:Might makes right, philosophy 101 yeah yeah we get it and knew it already. Thanks for your incredibly obvious, incredibly valuable contribution to a thread discussing what we should be doing with that might.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:56
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Octatonic posted:what is it with men and being so into this whole peeing standing up thing. why is it such a big deal to you all? you should just sit and relax like normal people. also it's ok to piss next to someone it's just a bit weird if you choose to stand next to somebody when you don't have to
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Mar 22, 2016 22:56
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Octatonic posted:what is it with men and being so into this whole peeing standing up thing. why is it such a big deal to you all? you should just sit and relax like normal people. It's a little quicker, ideally. Like if you just have to pee, a urinal will usually be quicker, simply because you don't have to close a door, or pull down your pants. That's usually the reason the men's room line goes a bit faster. Interestingly, women's urinals partially fell out of favor because dresses fell out of favor. They were basically like a little cistern you stand over and just let go, which matched the way most women did it in the old days, go find a corner, pull your dress/skirt up a bit and go, because you're not wearing underwear! Perhaps the solution is kilts for everyone! But yes, modern masculinity is a miserable little pile of insecurities.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:57
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I'm fascinated by the notion that we need to differentiate between authentic "trans" status and inauthentic "genderfluid" status, because the one is associated with a medical condition and the other is not. It merely reinforces the idea that, ideally, there would be no gender deviance beyond what is medically prescribed. A quaint and interesting notion.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:59
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But how do you feel about people who start wanting to go by a name that isn't really their name? Like Bill instead of William? Or even worse, Ted instead of Rafael?
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Mar 22, 2016 23:07
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depends how funny their new name is imho
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Mar 22, 2016 23:08
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Horking Delight posted:But how do you feel about people who start wanting to go by a name that isn't really their name? Like Bill instead of William? Or even worse, Ted instead of Rafael? Deviants attempting to mask our ability to control them through knowing their true names.
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Mar 22, 2016 23:09
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I would laugh if one of my friends started insisted on being called eg Blade or something unless they were cool enough to pull it off obv
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Mar 22, 2016 23:11
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Effectronica posted:And yet, if I were to simply dismiss your post as "dumb poo poo" and refuse to respect it, this would not be meekly accepted by you as the absolute truth. That would not be your problem and you could just ignore me if I get offended over it. Effectronica posted:I'm fascinated by the notion that we need to differentiate between authentic "trans" status and inauthentic "genderfluid" status, because the one is associated with a medical condition and the other is not. It merely reinforces the idea that, ideally, there would be no gender deviance beyond what is medically prescribed. A quaint and interesting notion. Why would that be so bad. Also, in general, gender should become less important rather than more important.
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Mar 22, 2016 23:13
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Octatonic posted:what is it with men and being so into this whole peeing standing up thing. why is it such a big deal to you all? you should just sit and relax like normal people. "Sit down and tuck it between your legs," you assure us.
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Mar 22, 2016 23:14
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Effectronica posted:I'm fascinated by the notion that we need to differentiate between authentic "trans" status and inauthentic "genderfluid" status, because the one is associated with a medical condition and the other is not. It merely reinforces the idea that, ideally, there would be no gender deviance beyond what is medically prescribed. A quaint and interesting notion. You are missing the point. You can be whatever you want outside public toilets, it's a free country and I don't judge. But as far as public bathrooms are concerned, woman and men have a right to feel safe and free from creeps in them. The only way to do it in a fair way is to have some kind of formal, objective process to recognize a sex change. Self-gendering can't work with public bathrooms. It's bad that some countries/states make this process unnecessarily complicated. It shouldn't be that way.
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Mar 22, 2016 23:14
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XMNN posted:I would laugh if one of my friends started insisted on being called eg Blade or something You should look at the etymology of names. They are all just words now foreign to us that meant cool things like Blade or Strongman or Who Is Like God? and poo poo like that. It's just we took them from the Bible so we didn't actually know the meaning just thought they sounded cool, like a guy getting a Chinese Character tattoo. I'm a healer!
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Mar 22, 2016 23:14
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waitwhatno posted:You are missing the point. Lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, and breeders aren't incapable of being creeps by virtue of cisgender status, mein freund. This line of reasoning, apart from "appeal-to-bigotry" special cases, leads inevitably to single-person bathrooms. blowfish posted:That would not be your problem and you could just ignore me if I get offended over it. Why would it be bad if gender roles were tightly enforced? Well, bucko, that goes right against gender being less important. EQETA.
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Mar 22, 2016 23:23
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As an aside, honestly unisex bathrooms seem like a legit idea, 'creeps' exist in the outside world that you have to deal with, the bathroom is not some kind of magical place, it's just another part of the public space. To answer your question op, I think 'entitlement' is the wrong way to think about it. You're not entitled to not get offended, that's not what's at stake here. It's the balance of taking offense (individual comfort) vs. social responsibility, and in that respect bathroom/pronoun poo poo is rather minor, while failing to do your job, or blocking police investigation is absolutely unacceptable. If you get offended by either, well tough poo poo, why should anyone else care? The world doesn't revolve around you. But bathroom/pronouns just don't matter, in the scheme of things. Now the what exactly transexuality means, and what the limits of it are, are a totally different debate for a totally different thread.
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Mar 22, 2016 23:26
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Are there any studies on the effects of unisex bathrooms?
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Mar 22, 2016 23:28
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Effectronica posted:Why would it be bad if gender roles were tightly enforced? Well, bucko, that goes right against gender being less important. EQETA. More gender identities meeting some arbitrary standard of being valid expands the range of important gender things. People shutting up about things and being parked in one of the existing categories till people stop caring doesn't get in the way of making gender less important. Bucko. Words.
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Mar 22, 2016 23:33
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Cingulate posted:Are there any studies on the effects of unisex bathrooms? This is one of those things that would have to be started in places of early childhood education, raising a new generation with different social conditioning with regard to gender and segregation. Most people aren't very intelligent, and even fewer are intellectually honest and open with regard to the foundations of their philosophical world views. Any real cultural change can have the ground prepared by adults, but will require new generations raised with new ideas to actually become the norm.
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Mar 22, 2016 23:59
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blowfish posted:More gender identities meeting some arbitrary standard of being valid expands the range of important gender things. People shutting up about things and being parked in one of the existing categories till people stop caring doesn't get in the way of making gender less important. Bucko. Words. What should be the fine for crossdressing? Should we encourage women to stop wearing suits? Should being butch or fem be criminalized? Have you thought this out beyond a childish, "I don't feel comfortable with this so I'll encrust my gut feeling with blather?"
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Mar 23, 2016 00:02
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Effectronica posted:What should be the fine for crossdressing? Should we encourage women to stop wearing suits? Should being butch or fem be criminalized? Have you thought this out beyond a childish, "I don't feel comfortable with this so I'll encrust my gut feeling with blather?" Law & Order: Gender Crimes Unit.  "What do we got here, Fin?" "It's a new gender the kids are calling the Columbus Porcupine, you spike your hair and wear a flame shirt as a skirt. Kid ended up on the Food Network because of it, saying his pronouns were 'flavor'"
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Mar 23, 2016 00:15
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Effectronica posted:Lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, and breeders aren't incapable of being creeps by virtue of cisgender status, mein freund. This line of reasoning, apart from "appeal-to-bigotry" special cases, leads inevitably to single-person bathrooms. Same-sex sexual harassment and violence is almost non existent, compared to heterosexual harassment and violence.
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Mar 23, 2016 00:15
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waitwhatno posted:Same-sex sexual harassment and violence is almost non existent, compared to heterosexual harassment and violence. Actually, not true. In terms of reported crimes, LGB people commit more sexual violence than straight women. Also, a trans woman is going to fall under homosexual harassment and violence anyways. Furthermore, assuming 0.1% of the population is trans, and 2% are LGB, both conservative numbers, trans women would have to be 20 times more likely to commit sexual assault merely to be as great of a threat to other women as lesbian and bi women in the same bathroom are. This is quite a bit higher than the known difference in reported assaults by straight men and women, so trans women would have to be monstrously obsessive rapists for the fear to be rational rather an example of hatred. Additionally, the social consequences that suppress LGB harassment are also going to be working on T people as well.
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Mar 23, 2016 00:24
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Death Bot posted:there's no reason to deny their new pronouns no matter how seriously you take it unless you want to start a fight or just generally be an rear end
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Mar 23, 2016 00:24
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Effectronica posted:Actually, not true. In terms of reported crimes, LGB people commit more sexual violence than straight women. Holy poo poo, not a single person in this thread is against trans people using their desired bathroom. This is about a forty years old drunk hobo shouting that he is now genderfluid and quickly gonna rub one out in the woman bathroom.
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Mar 23, 2016 00:31
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waitwhatno posted:Holy poo poo, not a single person in this thread is against trans people using their desired bathroom. This is about a forty years old drunk hobo shouting that he is now genderfluid and quickly gonna rub one out in the woman bathroom. There is nothing stopping someone from putting drag on and doing this right now. There will never be a way of fully stopping this without totalitarian brutality, single-person restrooms, or unisex restrooms. Furthermore, there's no magic test to determine an authentic trans person, so I fail to see why you're specifying "genderfluid," here.
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Mar 23, 2016 00:37
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Effectronica posted:There is nothing stopping someone from putting drag on and doing this right now. There will never be a way of fully stopping this without totalitarian brutality, single-person restrooms, or unisex restrooms. Furthermore, there's no magic test to determine an authentic trans person, so I fail to see why you're specifying "genderfluid," here. I would like to add also that he doesn't even need drag to do gross stuff. There is no boobs-only forcefield keeping gross men out of women's restrooms. If a woman born female went into the bathroom and started jacking off to all the women, the women are sti fully justified in saying, "get the gently caress out of our bathroom you perv."
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Mar 23, 2016 00:44
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We're not against welfare in general for good, hardworking people, we're just against welfare queens gaming the system! We're not against abortions in general for women, we're just against teenagers having abortions because they have sex at random!
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Mar 23, 2016 00:50
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Effectronica posted:There is nothing stopping someone from putting drag on and doing this right now. Except for laws, fear of consequences, social taboos, etc. quote:There will never be a way of fully stopping this without totalitarian brutality, single-person restrooms, or unisex restrooms. Actually, non-transgender people are pretty satisfied with the current arrangement. No need for totalitarianism at all. quote:Furthermore, there's no magic test to determine an authentic trans person, so I fail to see why you're specifying "genderfluid," here. No need for magic tests. Legally changing your sex is such a hassle that it is reasonable to assume that, for the most part, only people who genuinely want to live as a transman/transwoman are gonna do it. There are no genderfluid bathrooms, you go into the man or woman bathroom. That's why I'm singling it out.
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Mar 23, 2016 00:58
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waitwhatno posted:Except for laws, fear of consequences, social taboos, etc. Okay, and what laws against public masturbation, social taboos about public masturbation, or consequences of public masturbation would be eliminated? Please try to keep up. Actually preempting people from going into the wrong bathroom and being a creep requires one of those three options. Currently, all we can do is react, and that is what would be the case even if we don't have police smashing people's teeth out for being genderfluid. How do you stop someone who hasn't legally had their birth certificate updated but passes from using the toilet that they visibly should be using? Do we have Potty Cops TM checking papers?
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Mar 23, 2016 01:05
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Effectronica posted:How do you stop someone who hasn't legally had their birth certificate updated but passes from using the toilet that they visibly should be using? Do we have Potty Cops TM checking papers? This is a pretty dumb question. If your behavior in a bathroom is questionable for whatever reason, the bathroom owner will tell you to get lost and if you refuse then the Real CopsTM show up to collect a trespasser.
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Mar 23, 2016 01:11
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Literally The Worst posted:i sit down to pee and, hell, i like it I would like a separate bathroom for men who want to sit down to pee so I don't have to sit on pissy toilets.
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Mar 23, 2016 01:16
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DeusExMachinima posted:This is a pretty dumb question. If your behavior in a bathroom is questionable for whatever reason, the bathroom owner will tell you to get lost and if you refuse then the Real CopsTM show up to collect a trespasser. How do you stop people who pass from entering the bathroom, as waitwhatno is saying? Like, I get that your neural network looks like a pair of parallel lines, but please answer what is actually being written.
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Mar 23, 2016 01:17
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Couldn't you knock the center wall out of the bathrooms and then fill one wall with a bunch of disabled toilets and make it unisex? And also nicer?
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Mar 23, 2016 01:19
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Effectronica posted:How do you stop people who pass from entering the bathroom, as waitwhatno is saying? Like, I get that your neural network looks like a pair of parallel lines, but please answer what is actually being written. Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, what the gently caress? Right now men don't go into woman bathrooms. If you create unisex bathrooms, man will go into the same bathrooms as woman. You do understand this, right? It doesn't matter why men don't go into woman bathrooms, be it a forcefield or magic or whatever, they just don't go in there.
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Mar 23, 2016 01:26
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Effectronica posted:How do you stop people who pass from entering the bathroom, as waitwhatno is saying? Like, I get that your neural network looks like a pair of parallel lines, but please answer what is actually being written. yeah im sure that is empirically a super important problem
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Mar 23, 2016 01:28
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just have unisex bathrooms you goddamn morons its not that difficult
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Mar 23, 2016 01:29
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waitwhatno posted:Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, what the gently caress? Right now men don't go into woman bathrooms. If you create unisex bathrooms, man will go into the same bathrooms as woman. You do understand this, right? It doesn't matter why men don't go into woman bathrooms, be it a forcefield or magic or whatever, they just don't go in there. What the gently caress are you talking about? You said, and I quote: waitwhatno posted:No need for magic tests. Legally changing your sex is such a hassle that it is reasonable to assume that, for the most part, only people who genuinely want to live as a transman/transwoman are gonna do it. That is, you are assuming that only people who have legally had their recognized sex updated can go into their appropriate bathroom. I am asking how this is to be enforced. If that's not what you meant, please retract it instead of acting incredulous when I respond to the words that you say.
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Mar 23, 2016 01:29
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