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Effectronica posted:"Society", if it is sophontic, minded, hnau, whatever you wanna call it, does not interact on a personal level with us. So if your identity is owned by society, the owner is an absentee landlord. I love how you put this. That's brilliant. I agree, the owner is absentee, but the other people in society are all communally renting, and we depend on each other to pay our dues to that absentee landlord, even if we are just stuffing money in a box and putting the box in a river. Our social contract requires this, and our individual positions in society require all of us agreeing to more or less have some common understandings. I'm not gonna say we should go full Confucius and everyone's ultimate duty is to their role in society, but the problem is that if we weaken the inter-subjective network that holds us all together, you get people who are totally alienated from one another. quote:Since identity is owned by society and you, other people have no claim on it and your argument falls apart. I'm not speaking of society as some actuslly existing entity or agent. But more of the inter subjective space . It's like Facebook, that's a contemporary analogy for society. We can forge our identities there and validate our sense of who we are, but in order for it to function it requires a relatively consistent and stable set of inter subjective rules. The reason Facebook is so successful at allowing you to form your online identity is because of the inter subjective structure. You are free to out the content that you like, but it's the uniform structure that allows thst content to reliably function. If everyone is freely allowed to make their own space the way they want, altering the structure as freely as the content, you end up with MySpace. quote:But if we mean by society that we are to conform to whatever the majority wants, I declare that this means that you would have cheerfully sent people to Auschwitz and I will not associate myself with such a craven person. Not at all
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Mar 23, 2016 03:05
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waitwhatno posted:Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, what the gently caress? Right now men don't go into woman bathrooms. If you create unisex bathrooms, man will go into the same bathrooms as woman. You do understand this, right? It doesn't matter why men don't go into woman bathrooms, be it a forcefield or magic or whatever, they just don't go in there. Cis men absolutely do currently go into women's restrooms and even aggressively follow women into the restroom. There's even been cases of cis men standing guard outside/inside women's restrooms to enforce these very same "no men allowed" policies you and others are suggesting in this very thread, who have harassed and abused women. Maybe don't talk out of your rear end, next time. edit: Conservatives literally have advertised recruiting for cis men to go into women's restrooms to try and prove that trans women are predatory. Cis men absolutely go into women's restrooms for a variety of reasons. Sometimes dads go in there just to change their baby, because the men's restrooms don't usually have a changing station! What are you even talking about. les enfants Terrific! fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 03:06
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Effectronica posted:"Society", if it is sophontic, minded, hnau, whatever you wanna call it, does not interact on a personal level with us. So if your identity is owned by society, the owner is an absentee landlord. Since identity is owned by society and you, other people have no claim on it and your argument falls apart. Society does own you. You are societies product. Also I see little reason to debate with someone who once whined about white people liking rap music and reggae.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:07
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OwlFancier posted:Cultural appropriation is considered a bad thing because of the power imbalance involved. It is almost universally one way and done without the consent of the individuals concerned. It serves as a tool of oppression. There is nothing inherently wrong with dressing in clothes you don't understand, merely that doing so contributes to the wider cultural conquest and erasure of the culture with less money behind it. Was that kid on Youtube who ate a consecrated host appropriating Catholic culture? He most certainly did that without permission from the Catholic church.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:07
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Commie NedFlanders posted:I love how you put this. That's brilliant. This is pure psychobabble. quote:I'm not speaking of society as some actuslly existing entity or agent. But more of the inter subjective space . This is a lovely analogy. quote:Not at all Why not? If society has agreed that all the Jews, Roma, gays, and disabled people are to die, won't disagreeing wreck the "inter subjective space"?
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Mar 23, 2016 03:07
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Was that kid on Youtube who ate a consecrated host appropriating Catholic culture? He most certainly did that without permission from the Catholic church. No because the Catholic Church has more money than God and is not in any danger of being erased.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:08
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I was wondering how long before Effectronica would resort to Nazi comparisons. Page 4 a new record.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:09
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Crowsbeak posted:Society does own you. You are societies product. Also I see little reason to debate with someone who once whined about white people liking rap music and reggae. Too bad society is a blind idiot god and can't compel anyone to do anything. Only people can do that, and if it is just to do the unspecific thing where we crush all trans people without getting any blood on our hands, it is also just for me, or any other person, to order you to be silent in the name of society, is it not? Surely, your own logic would compel you to agree that if society decided it, you would remain silent and speak no more!
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Mar 23, 2016 03:09
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Commie NedFlanders posted:if we weaken the inter-subjective network that holds us all together, you get people who are totally alienated from one another. Oh my god do you even hear yourself? This is the flimsiest faux-intellectual handwringing I've seen in a minute. This is a thing that people have to deal with every day, a physical, mental, and emotional health issue. And you telling trans people that we need to button down and shut up because of your very grave concerns about the inter-subjective network is dumb as all get out. 
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Mar 23, 2016 03:12
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OwlFancier posted:No because the Catholic Church has more money than God and is not in any danger of being erased. Do you feel that cultural appropriation applies only to minority cultures?
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Mar 23, 2016 03:12
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Trans people don't need the inter subjective network and if they do they should just grow some nuts of something furthermore *faaaaaaaart*Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Do you feel that cultural appropriation applies only to minority cultures? Basically yeah.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:13
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Do you feel that cultural appropriation applies only to minority cultures? You can't really appropriate from the cultures forcefully spreading and colonizing, can you?
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Mar 23, 2016 03:14
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:You can't really appropriate from the cultures forcefully spreading and colonizing, can you? Or at least while you can it doesn't take the power of determination away from the owners of that culture.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:15
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:You can't really appropriate from the cultures forcefully spreading and colonizing, can you? Oh you mean like cishetero normativity? 
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Mar 23, 2016 03:16
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Effectronica posted:Too bad society is a blind idiot god and can't compel anyone to do anything. Only people can do that, and if it is just to do the unspecific thing where we crush all trans people without getting any blood on our hands, it is also just for me, or any other person, to order you to be silent in the name of society, is it not? Surely, your own logic would compel you to agree that if society decided it, you would remain silent and speak no more! How am I suggesting you be silent? I am more just pointing out that the individual really doesn't exist. You are the product of society. OwlFancier posted:
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Mar 23, 2016 03:17
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The fun thing is that nobody applies this poo poo to argue that, say, tattoos should be illegalized as blasphemy against the holy inter subjective network. So it's not that being different is an offense unto this secular god, it's seeing gender as something which is not a restricting force. That is, jailers naturally hate the possibility of escape, and seek to stop it at every turn.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:18
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Crowsbeak posted:So I should feel bad when playing GTA:SA as CJ and listening to radio Los Santos? I dunno, do you want to?
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Mar 23, 2016 03:18
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How would one then deal with two members of a minority culture giving conflicting opinions on permission to appropriate something? I've certainly witnessed minority individuals divided on that subject.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:19
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Crowsbeak posted:How am I suggesting you be silent? I am more just pointing out that the individual really doesn't exist. You are the product of society. The individual does exist, because if I were to stub my toe you would not say ouch. You lose, kid.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:19
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:How would one then deal with two members of a minority culture giving conflicting opinions on permission to appropriate something? I've certainly witnessed minority individuals divided on that subject. Trial by combat. Or gently caress it I dunno, the initial question was why do people think cultural appropriation is bad, not what's the absolute true solution to all the problems it presents.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:19
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Sharkie posted:Oh you mean like cishetero normativity? Something, something, breeders. 
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Mar 23, 2016 03:20
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Effectronica posted:The individual does exist, because if I were to stub my toe you would not say ouch. You lose, kid. Not throughout the world. The individual is a rather recent creation of the west. OwlFancier posted:I dunno, do you want to? No. Why should I?
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Mar 23, 2016 03:23
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Crowsbeak posted:Not throughout the world. The individual is a rather recent creation of the west. Wrong. This is Orientalist bullshit that relies on semantical confusion to seduce the disembrained. It actually is just the "Asian is an insectile entity" given new life, a shambling revenant racism.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:26
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Crowsbeak posted:No. Why should I? I dunno, I think you're very slightly contributing to the disenfranchisement of african americans from control over the portrayal of their cultural heritage. Though presumably you mostly did that when you bought the game so whether or not you play it afterwards doesn't really matter as much.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:26
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Crowsbeak posted:The individual is a rather recent creation of the west. Oh for real, I'd be fascinated to see your sources for "Only Western Europeans are Individuals, or at least until we taught the Orient how to do it."
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Mar 23, 2016 03:29
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Effectronica posted:Wrong. This is Orientalist bullshit that relies on semantical confusion to seduce the disembrained. It actually is just the "Asian is an insectile entity" given new life, a shambling revenant racism. How is it orientalist to suggest the individual is a recent construction of the west, and throughout most of history that this idea of someone with absolute autonomy did not exist? You know that denial of absolute individualism that you espouse doesn't make one a collectivist right? OwlFancier posted:I dunno, I think you're very slightly contributing to the disenfranchisement of african americans from control over the portrayal of their cultural heritage. Though presumably you mostly did that when you bought the game so whether or not you play it afterwards doesn't really matter as much. Oh lol. Yes I bought it so I could do that. Not because I like to play a game where I can do drivebys on a bike and blow up LSPD cars. I am really a cultural imperialist.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:31
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I'm pretty sure that one of the classical greek philosophers had something to say on the nature of the individual so "recent" may be pushing it.Crowsbeak posted:How is it orientalist to suggest the individual is a recent construction of the west, and throughout most of history that this idea of someone with absolute autonomy did not exist? You know that denial of absolute individualism that you espouse doesn't make one a collectivist right? Isn't that more or less entirely the basis of stoicism? That the self is entirely independent and autonomous and happiness is achieved by bringing it consciously into harmony with nature? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 03:32
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Crowsbeak posted:Oh lol. Yes I bought it so I could do that. Not because I like to play a game where I can do drivebys on a bike and blow up LSPD cars. I am really a cultural imperialist. I mean I imagine you probably don't buy coke to support exploitation of central americans but you still do support that by buying it.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:34
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:One is a person being able to define themselves. The other is a person being able to define others. Effectronica posted:Ethically, the only purposes for which someone might refuse to address people how they wish to be addressed are cruelty and the will to dominate, which are unethical. wiregrind fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 03:35
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Crowsbeak posted:How is it orientalist to suggest the individual is a recent construction of the west, and throughout most of history that this idea of someone with absolute autonomy did not exist? You know that denial of absolute individualism that you espouse doesn't make one a collectivist right? Cool lemme know if you wanna do some cultural imperialism in gta online
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Mar 23, 2016 03:39
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OwlFancier posted:I mean I imagine you probably don't buy coke to support exploitation of central americans but you still do support that by buying it. Yes I am a bad person because I am a poor college student and do not buy everything local. Commie NedFlanders posted:Cool lemme know if you wanna do some cultural imperialism in gta online Unfortunately I haven't yet bought a PS4 and am considering changing the fund so instead I buy a Nintendo NX. 
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Mar 23, 2016 03:42
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Crowsbeak posted:Yes I am a bad person because I am a poor college student and do not buy everything local. I didn't say you were a bad person, I said that your actions have consequences, whether you care about those and/or whether you want to view that as a personal failing or an inevitable result of the envrionment in which you live, is up to you.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:43
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Crowsbeak posted:How is it orientalist to suggest the individual is a recent construction of the west, and throughout most of history that this idea of someone with absolute autonomy did not exist? You know that denial of absolute individualism that you espouse doesn't make one a collectivist right? Like I said, semantical confusion to seduce the disembrained.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:46
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Effectronica posted:Like I said, semantical confusion to seduce the disembrained. Oh good now we are at the point where effectronica makes up words. I love this part.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:47
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Effectronica posted:How do you stop people who pass from entering the bathroom, as waitwhatno is saying? Like, I get that your neural network looks like a pair of parallel lines, but please answer what is actually being written. I'm not agreeing with keeping people out of bathrooms. I'm saying that waitwhatno's question is dumb. "So what if it's not 100% successful at stopping everyone, what is?" ~the opposition. And most transfolk I've known don't pass as their identified gender anyway. Crowsbeak posted:Not throughout the world. The individual is a rather recent creation of the west. No, I'm pretty sure throughout the world you don't say "ow" because you psychically know if someone else stubs their toe. Crowsbeak is kinda weird in that what he's saying about society being able to force people to do whatever isn't inaccurate, but gently caress if that isn't an obvious statement to make. What's the point of saying that unless in some way you're endorsing it? I guess the response would be that if society just refuses to respect the boundaries of someone's identity then maybe in that case it's good for society's enforcers to be in fear of someone with an AR15 and a grudge. Might making right and all that.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:47
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
Crowsbeak posted:Oh good now we are at the point where effectronica makes up words. I love this part. I'm not the guy that confused subjectivity of perception with libertarian metaphysics just to sneer at trans people. Nor am I the guy who is unfamiliar with the word"semantics", showing himself to be bringing a pie to this intellectual gunfight. Ironically, I am also unconcerned with which exact person you are of the many who've sworn pitiful revenge oaths against me.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:51
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DeusExMachinima posted:
Remember everyone, don't like a law. Shoot someone. That always gets people to consider your argument. Just imagine how far gay rights would be today if they had started to do armned take over court houses for refusing to marry them. Effectronica posted:I'm not the guy that confused subjectivity of perception with libertarian metaphysics just to sneer at trans people. Nor am I the guy who is unfamiliar with the word"semantics", showing himself to be bringing a pie to this intellectual gunfight. Ironically, I am also unconcerned with which exact person you are of the many who've sworn pitiful revenge oaths against me. LMFAO! I do this to make simple observations about reality, whether you can stand reality or not. Ddraig posted:Dissembrained is actually a very cromulent word to describe the phenomena he's talking about. Or someone who doesn't understand what words are. Really it just sounds like something I made up to sound intelligent when I was 14. And didn't understand the world. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 03:51
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Effectronica posted:Like I said, semantical confusion to seduce the disembrained. The question was asking "how" is it that way. Effectronica posted:You cowardly crustacean of a man, crawl out from your shell and make a drat argument. This is the internet, and all that will happen is the mild sting of the possibility someone who you view with utter contempt anyways might laugh, or, worse, post earnestly at you. Say what you want to say, instead of merely hinting at it, you hermit crab in human guise. wiregrind fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 03:51
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Crowsbeak posted:Oh good now we are at the point where effectronica makes up words. I love this part. Dissembrained is actually a very cromulent word to describe the phenomena he's talking about. Or someone who doesn't understand what words are.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:52
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Crowsbeak posted:Remember everyone, don't like a law. Shoot someone. That always gets people to consider your argument. Hey now, watch your individual thought there, it doesn't matter what you consider! If they manage to kill and/or intimidate everyone who'd try to stop them, they've earned the right to decide what's right, right?
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Mar 23, 2016 03:56
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