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Okay, gonna freely admit here that I read Page 1 and then Page 23 of this thread, so if there's any major talking points in there I really should see that occurred in the interim, please PM them to me. I'm gonna address OPs point first of all: Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Are nonbinary people entitled the platitude of correct gender pronouns or bathroom privileges based on their personal identity, any more or less than extremely religious people might feel entitled to their sensibilities not being offended, based on their personal religious identity? 1) pronouns are entirely language and social constructs. If someone who (to your eyes) looks masculine tells you that they use feminine pronouns, or someone tells you that they are nonbinary and prefer to use a singular "they" as their pronoun, the only reason someone wouldn't abide by that is to deliberately be an rear end. It costs absolutely nothing to use the proper pronoun for someone; it is no different than calling someone by their proper name. 2) bathroom privileges: there is absolutely no reason why trans individuals should not be allowed access to a bathroom in which they feel comfortable. So much of the legislation trying to be forced through the system right now is built on this weird premise that trans people in public bathrooms somehow puts cis people at an increased level of risk. There are several things wrong with this premise. Firstly, there is not some kind of magical force field that keeps predators or assaulters out of restrooms that would suddenly get broken if trans people are allowed in. Secondly, to imply that the trans community is somehow a greater risk to bathroom goers is grossly offensive; on the level of implying that the black community presets a great risk of muggings or the Muslim community presents a greater risk of suicide bombings. Thirdly; allowing trans people to use the appropriate restrooms does not legalize assaulting people. That remains illegal. 3) religious privilege: in America, people are entitled to both freedom of and freedom from religion. People are allowed to worship whoever they want and attend whatever sort of church they want, etc. However, this free exercise of religion cannot be used to infringe on the rights of other people. As Kim Davis so thoughtfully demonstrated to us all, one cannot use one's religious convictions to withhold civil rights. Now, as a private citizen, one can go right ahead and just privately believe that two dudes getting married is sinful and immoral or whatever, but that shouldn't spill over into public policy. (As an aside; I actually support the right of private businesses to refuse to serve whomever they want, if they own the establishment, they have the right to choose their clientele. That said, any business that actively discriminates against someone on basis of sexual orientation or gender identity is not going to see any of my dollars. I view it as a self-correcting system) rudatron posted:You're setting a precedent for self-declarations to override group concerns, that's not going to end well. If self-declarations are actively harmful or detrimental; then you have a case...someone can't just declare "I am the one true human being, all others must be purged" and expect to get away with murder. Otherwise, you seem to be arguing that someone having a gender identity that doesn't match their biological sex is somehow harmful to society at large; which is pretty indefensible. Turtle Sandbox posted:Lets all of us just agree that it doesn't matter what door you walk thru to sit down and poo poo in public, separating the sexes while they piss and poo poo as something fundamental to society is just loving lol. This is a bit more colorful that I would have put it...but this really is the core of the issue. Bathrooms are used for evacuating waste from the body and cleaning up afterwards. There's no real reason why we can't just have one giant bathroom full of stalls for any and all people to use at will. Again, it comes down to making trans people the boogey monster just waiting to commit dastardly deeds in the bathroom; deeds which remain illegal. blowfish posted:The oppressed status of a segment of the population does not afford them extra privileges, only protections. Exactly. Nobody serious is asking for any sort of special privilege. The trans community just wants the same rights, privileges, and protections that the cis community currently has.
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Mar 28, 2016 17:14
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Lichy posted:Men's public toilets are grim and really horribly dirty and covered in piss and I can't imagine someone wanting to use them if they have any alternative at all especially if they have to come into contact with any surface once inside. This isn't universally true; the men's room at my place of employment; open to the public; is actually cleaned fairly close to the "every 3 hours" posted schedule and is usually perfectly usable.
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Mar 28, 2016 19:12
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DeusExMachinima posted:It's pretty rude to blow smoke up someone's rear end by pretending xir isn't stupid and wasn't beaten to the punch by they. IMHO. "New" pronouns are only a problem because a word needs to hit some manner of critical mass before it gets accepted. Look at the word blog for example. You are correct that a singular 'they' is way easier to use; but some people have grammar rules beaten so far into their skulls that they refuse to accept 'they' as singular and instead seek to invent some other manner of pronoun on the same footing as 'he' and 'she'.
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Mar 28, 2016 19:26
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DeusExMachinima posted:Blog was a compound word that actually covered a new thing though? If I started calling it a webog when blog already existed would anyone bother? Some people are transgender and are off the binary completely. I have a trans roommate who uses a singular "they" Which neatly answers this: EXTREME INSERTION posted:I'm not sure what the point of this post is. Is "they" an acceptable gender neutral pronoun or not? Yeah; if someone uses 'they' as their pronoun, its perfect.
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Mar 28, 2016 20:10
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:So, what would be a list of these pronouns that are in current usage so that I would know how to congugate them and use them in day to day language If you're referring to someone in the third person and you know they're male, use he. If you're referring to someone in the third person and you know they're female, use she. If you're referring to someone in the third person and you don't know how they identify, or don't know what pronoun to use, use they. If you're referring to someone in the third person who you are familiar with and you know they use some other pronoun, use that pronoun.
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Mar 28, 2016 20:20
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Lyesh posted:The bathroom stuff is a much bigger deal and really gets into stuff like quantifying gender presentation and the wonderful days of arresting people who weren't wearing at least three pieces of gender-appropriate clothing. Bathroom access is also something that people need in their day-to-day lives, and non-binary female-assigned people and trans women who don't pass as cis (among others) have a horrific choice there. One that's definitely not made better by the threat of being arrested for having to pee and not feeling safe using a men's bathroom. Yeah; trans-men have a pretty lovely choice in places like North Carolina right now.  ,  ,  .All three of these people have to either A) Break the law and use the men's room, or B) Follow the law and use the women's room. The one in the center actually lives in NC and has taken the approach of handing out these: 
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Mar 28, 2016 20:33
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blowfish posted:I have sat in meetings where the chair opened by "I am %NAME, a %GENDER and %PRONOUN, and want to clarify this is a safe space for all sexual and gender identities and orientations" when the topic was something completely unrelated to gender or even identity in general so yeah occasionally tumbler does spill over into real life. Do you have something against the idea of a group of people assuring all present that everyone is welcome?
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Mar 28, 2016 20:36
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blowfish posted:loving retarded. Do we really need to include ableist slurs here? I totally get the stance of "why talk about gender inclusivity when it isn't relevant"...but there's no need for the slurs.
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Mar 28, 2016 20:46
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blowfish posted:I was wondering how long it would take for some brainless moron on the something awful forums to take offense to the word "retard" and unironically complain about ableism. So...slurs are totally cool with you then? What term do you use to refer to black people, if I may ask?
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Mar 28, 2016 20:55
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SedanChair posted:I ask for a real use of "xir" and somebody comes back with "snow leopard." Not accepting that is pedantry? We're talking about pronouns. Everything about this post is spot on and amazing. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 28, 2016 20:59
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The Kingfish posted:Why? I can't think of a single documented case of someone legitimately being "transspecies" or experiencing species dysphoria whereas gender identity, gender fluidity, and gender dysphoria are common, studied, and documented.
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Mar 28, 2016 21:06
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blowfish posted:"black people" I guess? So...people don't like the use of the word 'friend of the family' so you don't use it because it is offensive. People don't like the use of the word 'retard' so you go ahead and use it even though it is offense. Your stance is internally inconsistent.
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Mar 28, 2016 21:37
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) people with too much time on their hand started complaining, and is largely not controversial despite that because people with too much time on their hand complaining on some random other peoples' behalf is not particularly worth taking seriously by itself.
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The Kingfish posted:Because these types of self-definitions are entirely superficial? If you feel that it's so superficial, then what's the harm in accommodating?
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Mar 28, 2016 21:50
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The Kingfish posted:Because it functions to solidify the importance of gender. So wait....is it superficial, or is it of some gigantic importance?
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Mar 28, 2016 22:10
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The Kingfish posted:The distinctions made by people with personal genders between themselves and the traditional genders are entirely superficial. The social construct of gender is of gigantic importance. So if the social perception of gender is so important, and someone's personal identification is so superficial; it stands to reason that it is better for society as a whole if people's gender identities were respected. As it is superficial to indulge the individual, and of social import overall.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:18
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The Kingfish posted:It does not stand to reason, no. well let's try a different approach then, shall we? How does it harm the social construct that is gender if an individual self-identifies as something other than what their hospital doctor said they were when they were born?
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Mar 28, 2016 22:30
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The Kingfish posted:Exactly? Gender is a bad social construct, and personal genders do nothing to undermine gender as a force in our society. We should be working to abolish gender, not strengthen its grip. If a transgender individual wants to use 'xhe' as a pronoun and someone doesn't want to respect that; that's misgendering.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:42
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Amused to Death posted:I'd respect it but in my head I'd also be going "ppfffft", so where does that leave me? Your personal opinions are your own; and don't really factor into it.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:50
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blowfish posted:I'm of the opinion that people doing or saying absurd things should be actively educated. Climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, neoliberals (neo liberals), lolbertarians, and xe people who think other people need to actually call them that. So we're lumping people with actively harmful and dangerous beliefs in with "being transgender" now?
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Mar 28, 2016 23:00
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The Kingfish posted:Ok good to know where you stand. I support that form of misgendering. So you're an rear end then? Why would you support any form of deliberate misgendering? blowfish posted:Still conflating trans people with single-person gender identities I guess? Does them using a different pronoun somehow make them less transgender? Or less deserving of respect and dignity? jivjov fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Mar 28, 2016 |
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Mar 28, 2016 23:04
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The Kingfish posted:Because I don't believe in using personal genders for the reasons already given. So...you're an rear end then. You are actively advocating for deliberately misgendering someone. Your belief on the matter doesn't make their gender identity any less valid.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:08
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The Kingfish posted:Their gender identity isn't valid. And you were declared the world's sole authority on what genders are and aren't valid....when? May I see your credentials?
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Mar 28, 2016 23:13
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The Kingfish posted:Its only rude because xe people are looking to feel special. People with "xe" as their pronoun are looking to feel normal.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:30
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The Kingfish posted:Definitely not. It's no different than a trans man wanting to use "he" as their pronoun of choice.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:34
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The Kingfish posted:Its entirely different. No. It really isn't. You want to make it different, because you don't like it. But it is no different.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:35
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The Kingfish posted:Its different because transmen adopt he/his in order to better perform their new gender in a society that has preconceived notions about sex and gender. So choosing to use a more comfortable pronoun is undesirable solely because society says so? Did you know that talk of, say, abolishing segregation, was at one point undesirable? Should we have kept "No Coloreds" signs around because to remove them would make white society uncomfortable?
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Mar 28, 2016 23:50
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The Kingfish posted:No it doesn't apply to personal pronouns because non-binary people aren't performing gender the same way that trans and cis people are. Non-binary is a form of being transgender. You literally just said "transgender people aren't performing gender the same way trans[...]people are" And what difference does it make if a segment of the trans population prefers non "standard" pronouns? How in any way, shape, or form does it make their gender less valid than anyone else's? "Because it's different" doesn't count.
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Mar 29, 2016 00:05
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Frosted Flake posted:Why should people indulge them? Because it costs literally nothing to do so. It harms no-one.
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Mar 29, 2016 02:14
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the trump tutelage posted:If you believe that individualism is too dominant an ethos in Western culture, then it follows that you may not want to indulge someone with a de facto narcissistic concern with being perceived "correctly" regardless of how they actually appear, or someone who arrogantly insists that society reshape itself to accommodate them when is they who should accommodate society. So you're saying that someone's gender is subservient to their physical appearance?
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Mar 29, 2016 03:47
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Amused to Death posted:Trans: its absurd to say someone is a demigirl or demiboy, or any kind of gender variant outside of the usual man/women just because they sometimes do and associate with masculine/feminine norms of the opposite gender. Its frankly belittling to trans people and possibly even imtersexed people and what they go through and their desire for them to be taken seriously. Okay...so...looking at the bolded parts there; are you honestly saying that there are no other options other than MALE or FEMALE? That everyone exists solely on the two poles of the binary? That there's no such thing as, say, an androgynous or agender individual?
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Mar 29, 2016 04:18
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Amused to Death posted:Yes. At best one could argue trans and intersexed people occupy an outsider place on the binary, but that's because of an unusual life experience and/or mixture of male and female physical characteristics. Like being androgynous and breaking gender roles doesn't make you non binary, or Xir or whatever gender variant Okay; so you are just completely and utterly wrong here; and you really should just shut up and go away because you don't know a thing about gender identity. Gender is a spectrum, not two binary poles. I'm really trying to keep a civil tongue here...but you basically just said that one of my best friends is lying to me about who they are, or that they're "just confused" or some other poo poo. So seriously; go educate yourself and don't post again until you have a goddamn clue as to what you're talking about.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:33
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Krysmphoenix posted:Actually that's exactly how it is. When you move away from gender roles you move away from the gender binary. Some people decide that at some point (and it is their job to decide when, not anyone else) they've strayed so far away from the binary that they're something completely different. Being androgynous is just one such way to accomplish this. Yeah; everyone please take note of this parenthetical. Nobody gets to tell someone else what their gender is or isn't.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:38
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Amused to Death posted:Whatever you say, Xir Okay, look here you mouthy little poo poo; you do not get to tell me, or my friends, who or what I or they are. Whatever you think you know about gender, you loving don't. You are an offensive jackass. There are SO many people that don't meet your narrow little view of gender. Just because you don't understand it, just because you REFUSE to understand it, does not mean that non-binary individuals are making it up, or wrong about their own gender identities. Educate yourself and stop being an rear end to people; seriously.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:45
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OwlFancier posted:Uh, how would you know? This exactly! There is precisely ONE person that can say with certainty what someone's gender identity is...and that is that one person.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:48
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Amused to Death posted:Because despite what Xir said up, I actually am a bit educated on this stuff since I've for years been in the orbit of trans/other lgbt communities and have inevitably read a lot of stuff from a lot of people, I've been a first hand witness to the rise of non binary and other neo pronouns and a good deal of people using them currently I wanna go "pffffft" to Your opinion on someone else's identity doesn't matter one IOTA. You can "pffffft" til you pass out, and be as closeminded and arrogant as you drat well please and its not going to change the simple fact that you. Are. Wrong. You haven't the faintest idea what is going on in the head of a non-binary individual because you have already decided that their experience is somehow faulty and not worth incorporating into your limited little worldview.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:54
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Amused to Death posted:We can't rule it out Ahh good; so you are just trolling. Glad to know I can safely just discount everything you've posted as some manner of performance art rather than being sad that someone with those opinions actually exists.
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Mar 29, 2016 04:57
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Amused to Death posted:Actually while I am trolling a bit I also fully believe in what I was saying, and to make it worse you have to accept the fact these opinions are coming from a leftist trans person, not your Drumpf voting aunt at the family dinner Oh; okay; so you do in fact believe that non-binary people don't exist. I feel very sorry for any trans individuals in your life that you marginalize with your toxic attitude, but am secure in the fact that you're fundamentally incorrect. OwlFancier posted:I have a lovely image of some goon on a chair dispensing gender idenities like some kind of marginally more horrifying version of king minos. Goddamn; excellent reference. Well done.
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Mar 29, 2016 05:05
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Amused to Death posted:I know 3 trans people IRL, they're all of the same sentiment Well, guess what? They're wrong too. I know trans people as well, one of them is not only a very good friend of mine, but they're also non-binary, and has spent quite a lot of time in discussion about it. You, and your friends, do not get to dictate anyone else's gender.
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Mar 29, 2016 05:34
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Amused to Death posted:Weirdly enough Xir, as a real life amnecdote you picked a person in one of the circumstances where identifying as non binary isn't dumb as hell. We're fixated on nonbimary though, let's discuss how neopronouns and an endless litany of genders like demiboy actually work out in real life Any particular reason why you keep misgendering me in particular? And while I'm at it, and I know I'm going to regret asking, why are you suddenly saying that it's not dumb for my friend to be non-binary? When up til now your stance was pretty hardline "unless they're intersex it's dumb"?
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Mar 29, 2016 10:55
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:I feel like this thread in a nutshell is: A lot of people on that second side are taking it quite a bit further; either implying or outright stating that people using neopronouns (or identifying non-binary at all) are failing some societal duty or are being "excessively" deviant. This is an incredibly toxic and transphobic viewpoint to take, and just perpetuates the stigma that to be transgender is to somehow be lesser.
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Mar 29, 2016 12:06
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"