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Death Bot posted:If you respect trans people as being their identified gender (I do) then yes 100%. There is no reason not to, and as purely as we treat trans people globally I really doubt anyone is going to play the extremely long and bad con on this one like people seem to expect. What about genderfluid hipsters? In particular, genderfluid dragonkin/flowerkin transspecies hipsters who refer to themselves as "bloomself"? at some point it's not a legit identity anymore, just attention seeking by neglected tweens quote:And even if you don't agree with the pronoun "privilege" I feel like you can (hopefully) at least respect it, in much the same way that you wouldn't (hopefully) casually address everyone you know with "hey rear end in a top hat" I don't even know what you're going on about here, because this discussion hasn't been about checking you're privilege, but hey you're a dumb rear end in a top hat
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Mar 22, 2016 19:55
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Quorum posted:Being a dick to them is never acceptable. Lol what kind of retarded society do you want to live in. Idiots doing dumb poo poo and demanding everyone respect their dumb poo poo because of their self-declared special snowflake status can and should be called out as idiots. Explaining to every idiot in detail why they are an idiot is futile given the effectively unlimited supply of idiots, and nobody should be required to waste their time doing it.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:06
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waitwhatno posted:Trans people should only be allowed to use the type of bathroom that corresponds to their legal sex. At some point you gotta draw a line between the genderfluid dweebs and the real transgender people. Legal sex could be this line. If you went to all the trouble to change your legal sex, you are probably pretty serious about it. 
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Mar 22, 2016 22:16
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Wheeee posted:Bathrooms should all be unisex, gently caress it. Everyone should agree this is a good thing. Genitals are a thing people usually have and people shouldn't get too worked up over things everyone has.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:37
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Effectronica posted:And yet, if I were to simply dismiss your post as "dumb poo poo" and refuse to respect it, this would not be meekly accepted by you as the absolute truth. That would not be your problem and you could just ignore me if I get offended over it. Effectronica posted:I'm fascinated by the notion that we need to differentiate between authentic "trans" status and inauthentic "genderfluid" status, because the one is associated with a medical condition and the other is not. It merely reinforces the idea that, ideally, there would be no gender deviance beyond what is medically prescribed. A quaint and interesting notion. Why would that be so bad. Also, in general, gender should become less important rather than more important.
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Mar 22, 2016 23:13
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Effectronica posted:Why would it be bad if gender roles were tightly enforced? Well, bucko, that goes right against gender being less important. EQETA. More gender identities meeting some arbitrary standard of being valid expands the range of important gender things. People shutting up about things and being parked in one of the existing categories till people stop caring doesn't get in the way of making gender less important. Bucko. Words.
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Mar 22, 2016 23:33
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hmmm 111 new posts what the gently caress, now we're discussing cultural appropriation and capital T Trans-national people, i.e. two first world problems only first worlders ever talk about 
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Mar 23, 2016 08:13
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OwlFancier posted:The argument is that traditional gender roles are unnecessary and should not be assigned to people without their consent. Instead people should be free to choose their own role regardless of their gender and the idea that there are only two acceptable roles is dumb. You should not care about gender roles period. Demanding recognition for an arbitrary range of additional gender roles gets silly and is annying.
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Mar 23, 2016 18:46
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:That is incredibly easy to say when you fit into those gender roles. When you are trans and get abused for who you are, it becomes impossible to just "not care." "not care" in that case should be prescriptive for regressives who flip their poo poo over the existence of trans people
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Mar 23, 2016 18:51
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:You called trans people you disagree with annoying in your last post. I called people who not only assign to themselves but demand from everyone around them special snowflake recognition in my last post. quote:I'm using "not care" in this case to refer to the fact that we have to care. We're being abused and attacked for who we are. We don't have the privilege to ignore it like you do. Commie NedFlanders posted:for many people, gender is a fundamental defining feature of their identity, isn't it condescending to tell other people what should or should not matter to them? well good for them, but nobody else has to use that as the primary way of evaluating them quote:I used to think those stupid right-wing articles about liberalism running rampant and universities becoming places where debate is not allowed was just good ol reactionary hysteria, but it seems that liberals today really do want to create a Dictatorship of the Culturally Excluded and they are going full Stalin, trying to police what people value and think and argue that certain issues are not even acceptable to be questioned or debated  or  is the more appropriate response here
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Mar 23, 2016 19:06
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Here's the thing, in my personal life, I would still play along and call someone what they preferred to be called, even if I thought it was stupid as hell. I would play into their silly language game to make them comfortable because that's a kind thing to do for someone else. Because "wouldn't it be nice if everyone were nice to each other  " is not the be-all end-all for how society should work. Ironic, coming from someone complaining that librulz want to shut down debate because their precious feelings were hurt.quote:It boggles my mind that someone who knows what it's like to be mistreated, as many LGBT people do, will turn around and ostracize people for having "politically incorrect " beliefs. Because
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Mar 23, 2016 19:10
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Commie NedFlanders posted:How is a gender blind society an ideal worth striving for? That's good for them, but why should it matter to everyone else? For instance, if someone is sifting through job applications they shouldn't care about what gender the applicant ~self identifies~, but about the applicant's qualifications, accomplishments, team work ability, etc.
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Mar 23, 2016 19:13
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Stinky_Pete posted:The origin of gender was for the sake of division of labor. The woman jobs in hunter-gatherer tribes were the ones that could be done while holding a baby so that they were never interrupted. Now that we have other ways of holding babies and procreating and so forth, genders no longer determine jobs and their social role is more vestigial and mostly relegated to sex (we've also managed to separate sex from its original role, or are trying to, Texas). Cultures that faced a decline in megafauna also saw an increase in the value of the woman job, and so there was more motivation to have a way for men to become women. One way, IIRC, was that during a rite of passage coming-of-age ritual type thing, they put the kid on a vision quest where they're supposed to see either a woven basket or a bow and arrow, and the one they choose determines their job aka gender.  Get hosed.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:16
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WampaLord posted:"Sure, I could call that person what they ask, but This is a perfectly reasonable response. Making other people invest  in your own dumb poo poo does, in fact, make you the bigger rear end in a top hat.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:17
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Effectronica posted:It takes effort not to run down pedestrians crossing the road. Clearly, whoever walks is a bigger rear end in a top hat than the person who murders them with their car. Murdered pedestrians and mildly hurt feelings: literally the same thing. Frosted Flake posted:The guy comes in supporting the triumphalist, end of history view you guys are spouting, adds socio-historical context and gets this: are always bad, no matter whose opinions they are supposed to support 
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Mar 23, 2016 23:21
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Disrespecting people's gender identities can result in suicide. Trans people, including nonbinary people, have reduced life expectancy because of things like this. It's more than "mildly hurt feelings" and to conflate it to such is incredibly disingenuous. Well then something got messed up during these peoples' socialisation because if "oh no I got mistaken for the wrong
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Mar 23, 2016 23:35
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:So this is the "trans people are broken, why can't they just get over it" narrative in play now. No I don't give a poo poo about whether you (used to) have a penis but see yourself as a woman or vice versa, you shouldn't view everything through the lens of your victim complex (which may be the underlying issue here )
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Mar 23, 2016 23:41
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Effectronica posted:Somebody snickering about how only a total pussy would kill themselves is mentally incapable of treating other people decently, though it is valiant to try to educate them. nice strawman
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Mar 23, 2016 23:42
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:blowfish is focused very intently on sex organs being the important part of a person's identity, blowing off how people actually identify. Victim mentality or projection: you decide . Because I actually said that whether your preferred identity matches your genitals isn't important.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:53
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Who What Now posted:You very, very obviously do. Specifically you care that people must be either a man or a women, no exceptions. blowfish posted:Victim mentality or projection: you decide
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Mar 23, 2016 23:55
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rudatron posted:So I think it goes without saying that all human beings deserve respect by default, they have dignity by default, and that human life is a precious, maybe the most precious thing in the universe. But whether or not using a pronoun that you have chosen for yourself constitutes disrespect is a little doubtful. Others could choose to do it because you don't want to offend them, but you don't have a right not to be offended, you have a right to be treated with respect. A good boundary line between the two, I feel, is respect is something everyone could sympathize with in the same position, with honesty. From my view, if you're asking someone to address you as a certain pronoun, and you don't match what that pronoun looks like, or you've invented an entirely new pronoun, you are absolutely being disrespectful yourself by making that demand, that goes beyond what you should be able to ask. Because you're not asking to be treated with respect, you're asking others to indulge you. It is then socially acceptable for them to refuse to do that. So if you don't (reasonably) present like a woman, yet you ask to be addressed as one, you are out of line, period. If you ask to be referred to as 'xir' or whatever, let's be frank, that's not a pronoun in circulation, so what you're asking is not something that could be seen as socially acceptable.
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Mar 24, 2016 09:55
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:The fact remains that you're one of the people who's consistently dismissed or ignored longer posts with sarcastic or ignorant replies in this thread. You're one of the only sources of what you claim to expect. Almost all of your posts are single sentences, most of them are dismissive of other people, and some of them even contain childish name calling or strawmen. No single one of your posts contain a single complete paragraph. You haven't put any effort at all into this thread, yet you expect others to deliver you content and effort. You've been nothing but extremely disingenuous and derogatory the entire time and somehow still expect to be taken seriously at all. , given that you're the one person (besides effectronica, but who cares about effectronica ) who most consistently reduces everyone who does not agree with you to being evil.
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Mar 24, 2016 21:23
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Literally The Worst posted:dude you're saying straight up gross hateful poo poo and then pretending you don't understand how it's gross hateful poo poo and demanding respect You are arguing on the level of an angry teenager. Atasnaya Vaflja posted:It has been two days of this same nonsense. Twice you have said "maybe you guys should be nicer You are projecting. Everyone who doesn't already live in your own little world and makes arguments that offend you is obviously out to oppress you, consciously or unconsciously, without considering cause and effect when it comes to things that offend you and things that oppress you and without realising that the average person has never knowingly dealt with your issue. After a few rounds of this everyone who didn't already agree with you beforehand goes "I don't want to listen to this poo poo anymore, just shut the gently caress up" and stops caring about your problems. Like angry teenager guy, if you feel too special to explain your problem to the uninformed public, you either don't actually have a problem or you are poo poo at fighting for your cause. The Larch posted:Sex isn't gender. Are you saying there is no overlap at all suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 11:07
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" while spouting off bigoted rhetoric almost word for word from the transphobe's handbook. No matter how anyone responds, you (and people like you) aren't going to be satisfied because you've already got your prejudices made up in your mind.
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Effectronica posted:I kind of enjoy the thought that having sex with someone is morally neutral, and forming your hand into a fist and swinging it repeatedly is morally neutral, rudatron. If nobody involved feels good about it or gets harmed by it then it is morally neutral (or, rather, irrelevant).
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Mar 25, 2016 13:25
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Things have been said but none that the other side of the argument considers a valid point.
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Mar 25, 2016 15:31
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sidviscous posted:FWIW, I actually agree that this is how things are - societally you're a woman or a man if people will accept you as a woman or a man, and that your appearance is important in that. In general, I think the trend for people to primarily identify as what they are rather than what they do is terrible for a society larger than a farming village. I don't want to know that you're Joe, son of Jack, who used to be Jane but identifies as a man, is sexually attracted to women, who happens to be a plumber. I want to know that you are Joe the plumber who happens to be the son of Jack, and used to be called Jane until he realised he'd be happier as a man, and is sexually attracted to women. The former is completely useless unless Joe is my personal friend, the latter tells me everything I need to know when I look up Joe on google to have him come over and fix my leaky piping. It's simply not worth bothering with the first more private kind of identity in a society where everyone doesn't know everyone else. People who care about it (either way - both people wanting everyone to make a big deal out of their special snowflake status and people who flip their poo poo over the fact that people privately identify as something unusual) need to get over the fact that modern society is not a stone age tribe anymore. quote:Hilariously, I'm at that weird phase at the moment where I can claim I'm a trans man and people will instantly switch from "you're not really a woman" to "you're not really a man". See above: the best position to take would be "who gives a poo poo about that, sidiviscuous is first and foremost a shitposter on a dead gay kkkomedy forum"
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Mar 25, 2016 20:17
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Commie NedFlanders posted:If you are fighting for a new sort of social ethics that is more tolerant and accommodating of the thoughts and feelings of other people, including people you disagree with, then you are dooming that fight to failure by doing the exact opposite in your own conduct. No you see, to maintain our brave new world we must be intolerant only (but vehemently) of intolerance itself. It just so happens that intolerance encompasses everything I disagree with. 
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Mar 25, 2016 20:20
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Stinky_Pete posted:Certain posters in this thread do have a nasty habit of putting words in the mouths of others, but for the most part I try to excuse that as the product of years of frustration and even abuse IRL, and focus on how I can help bridge the divide. Most people literally don't know or care about a possible distinction between sex and gender, and everything the average person knows about trans people or any gender identity beyond man/woman can be comprehensively summed up as "they're people who think they were born in the wrong body" in the best case.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:27
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Commie NedFlanders posted:he was calling for people to stand up for this is about as far as a 2016 activist will correctly parse that sentence
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Mar 25, 2016 20:32
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:Peaceful protests and respectability politics don't work, which is why Martin Luther King Jr. accomplished absolutely nothing and black people still have to sit in the back of the bus in 2016
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Mar 25, 2016 20:43
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Pththya-lyi posted:"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and all that. (As for whether or not my faith is "thoroughly silly," well, I'll agree to disagree.) What if I don't want to require every random joe on the street to be nice to me?
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Mar 25, 2016 20:49
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Effectronica posted:There is a light that shines in the darkness, and the darkness perceives it not. Can you just say what you mean instead of being a tryhard faux-intellectual with tourettes?
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Mar 26, 2016 22:02
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tl;dr:  this stupid thread and everyone in it
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Mar 27, 2016 20:02
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:You're being rude. Yeah and?
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Mar 27, 2016 23:55
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main takeaway for everyone from this thread: the other guys are beyond saving, gently caress them, and forwards unto my own brave new world
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Mar 28, 2016 11:40
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Lyesh posted:Then my answer is found in the answer to my own rhetorical question. "Neckbeards" do not have issues with access to employment, safe bathroom facilities, or medical care at levels any higher than the general population. The oppressed status of a segment of the population does not afford them extra privileges, only protections.
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Mar 28, 2016 17:07
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At some point ~my feelings~ shouldn't be something strangers need to care about.
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Mar 28, 2016 19:56
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Ddraig posted:The classic sociopath argument: Dealing with strangers you will probably never see again: must look enjoyable with faux-politeness or you're literally a sociopath. Maybe you should go live in a country where people aren't socialised to reflexively project a polite happy image now matter how annoyed or miserable they are like in the UK or America and be terrified of the 95% sociopaths in the population.
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Mar 28, 2016 20:12
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Cingulate posted:The nice thing about singular they is that it's under specified. It doesn't mean "neuter", it means "I don't know". this would be a good thing because people caring about genders of other people (maybe apart from their friends/partners) is just a dumb loving thing that doesn't fulfil any useful function
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Mar 28, 2016 20:14
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Lichy posted:Gender had a huge influence in such diverse fields of life like sports, dating and susceptibility to disease to count a few, so I wouldn't discount it as completely useless information. Dating I'll give you, but unless you consider gender and sex the same (it's a D&D thread so probably no) and except for transpeople taking hormones sports performance and physical health are exclusively related to physical sex . SedanChair posted:It's really important for you to be able to let people know you think they are freaks, huh? But I wonder how long you'd last if you went through life with others telling you the same. Not long, I imagine. Projecting very hard again, I see, so let me clarify. I would certainly let you, in particular know I consider you a freak because you're so annoying I'll take any opportunity to insult you, but that doesn't apply to random people who haven't been annoying pieces of poo poo to me regardless of their self image.
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Mar 28, 2016 20:26
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