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Helsing posted:The fact that Islam is often violet and reactionary isn't a particularly deep insight. The better question would be why political Islam found such a fertile recruiting ground, and that answer leads us away from sermons on the unique danger of the Muslim hordes and back to fairly pedestrian geopolitical concerns. You'd think, but witness the Pant-making GBS threads that happens when you state this insight. I feel like we're mere posts away from SedanChair going shahid on the local synagogue because, like, feelings and IceIceBaby. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 25, 2016 20:08
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TheImmigrant posted:You'd think, but witness the Pant-making GBS threads that happens when you state this insight. I feel like we're mere posts away from SedanChair going shahid on the local synagogue because, like, feelings and IceIceBaby. It's a meaningless insight. Is the fact that most synagogues are full of reactionaries too some radical insight that's TOO ORTHODOX FOR YOU?
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Mar 25, 2016 20:11
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TheImmigrant posted:You'd think, but witness the Pant-making GBS threads that happens when you state this insight. I feel like we're mere posts away from SedanChair going shahid on the local synagogue because, like, feelings and IceIceBaby. Sedanchair hasn't made a single post this thread. Why are you bringing him up at all?
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Mar 25, 2016 20:11
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Stinky_Pete posted:We still have dudes doing arson to mosques in America, and we had a right wing authoritarian leader justify an absolute gently caress-up of a war (which helped create ISIS) primarly on an undercurrent of racial animus, and now a presidential frontrunner calling for all Muslims to be barred from entering the country indefinitely, so I think some overcompensation on the part of liberals to call for acceptance and protection of Muslims is acceptable. Liberals should stand up for acceptance and protection of Muslims living here, not only because it's morally the right thing to do but because on average American Muslims aren't that extreme. In opinion polling American Muslims are more supportive of things like gay marriage than white evangelical Christians are for example. The problem I have is that many liberals are so averse to criticizing Islam that they'll extend this to a defense of Islamism/political Islam, which is basically as antithetical to western liberal values as humanly possible. There's no conflict between saying saying that Muslims are fine and also that Islam itself is fine but that Islamism is bad, but many just shy away from any criticism at all.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:13
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MaxxBot posted:
Yes, exactly.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:14
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MaxxBot posted:The problem I have is that many liberals are so averse to criticizing Islam that they'll extend this to a defense of Islamism/political Islam Show me an example where this happens. (Defending civil rights and due process is not defending Islamism btw)
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Mar 25, 2016 20:15
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Panzeh posted:It's a meaningless insight. Is the fact that most synagogues are full of reactionaries too some radical insight that's TOO ORTHODOX FOR YOU? Ooh, Jooz. How edgy of you. What are you, 17?
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Mar 25, 2016 20:15
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TheImmigrant posted:Ooh, Jooz. How edgy of you. What are you, 17? How insightful. It's good to see the Donald Trump perspective in this thread.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:17
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MaxxBot posted:The problem I have is that many liberals are so averse to criticizing Islam that they'll extend this to a defense of Islamism/political Islam, which is basically as antithetical to western liberal values as humanly possible. There's no conflict between saying saying that Muslims are fine and also that Islam itself is fine but that Islamism is bad, but many just shy away from any criticism at all. Because it's really not that big of an issue (at least in the US). Like I can also say FARC is a menace that needs to be dealt with but most people won't say that because it doesn't affect them.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:19
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Panzeh posted:You are a meanie with poopypants. Looks like I overmisunderestimated your age.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:20
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Nothing is at stake here. Nearly all of arguments in this thread have had no real object other than to try to demonstrate that someone has the wrong affective reaction to mention of Islam. But that's a loving stupid thing to argue about. Nothing of interest follows from it.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:23
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Any discussion of stuff like this in liberal circles is basically dismissed out of hand, I was surprised when I saw these numbers but they come from Pew Research which is a reputable organization. We had a big thread on the Islamic world a while back and while the Muslim posters were very knowledgeable and had good intentions IMO they were very insistent that Muslims who want sharia law to harshly punish non-Muslims are a rare minority. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/    Hell, even seeing the word "Islamism" or "political Islam" coming from liberal writers is rare. There seems to be a strange dichotomy where this is either ignored or it must be used as a cudgel against Islam or as a justification to drop bombs. I'm not anti-Islam and I'm very anti-interventionist so I want to do neither, I just think that it's a serious problem that so many people have such extreme views. I don't really have a solution to the issue beyond the typical call for less of a military presence in the middle east but I still think it's worthy of discussion.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:34
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It's very telling that the title of the thread is "The Left and Religion" yet all mentions of religion are of Islam.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:37
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MaxxBot posted:Hell, even seeing the word "Islamism" or "political Islam" coming from liberal writers is rare. There seems to be a strange dichotomy where this is either ignored or it must be used as a cudgel against Islam or as a justification to drop bombs. I'm not anti-Islam and I'm very anti-interventionist so I want to do neither, I just think that it's a serious problem that so many people have such extreme views. I don't really have a solution to the issue beyond the typical call for less of a military presence in the middle east but I still think it's worthy of discussion. I don't think that discussion goes anywhere interesting.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:39
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I think a lot of liberals simply align themselves with defending Islam simply because they don't want to be on the same side as Republicans who are critical of Islam there's also the whole idea about multiculturalism but don't think liberals in America even believe in that, I think their identity is just a reactionary form of Not-Republican
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Mar 25, 2016 20:41
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computer parts posted:It's very telling that the title of the thread is "The Left and Religion" yet all mentions of religion are of Islam. Is it? What does it tell? What would more virtuous forums posters be posting about? Why aren't you posting about that thing?
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Mar 25, 2016 20:44
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fspades posted:Show me an example where this happens. I think this is an interesting recent article on the subject: http://www.politico.eu/article/molenbeek-broke-my-heart-radicalization-suburb-brussels-gentrification/ quote:Over nine years, I witnessed the neighborhood become increasingly intolerant. Alcohol became unavailable in most shops and supermarkets; I heard stories of fanatics at the Comte des Flandres metro station who pressured women to wear the veil; Islamic bookshops proliferated, and it became impossible to buy a decent newspaper. With an unemployment rate of 30 percent, the streets were eerily empty until late in the morning. Nowhere was there a bar or café where white, black and brown people would mingle. Instead, I witnessed petty crime, aggression, and frustrated youths who spat at our girlfriends and called them “filthy whores.” If you made a remark, you were inevitably scolded and called a racist. There used to be Jewish shops on Chaussée de Gand, but these were terrorized by gangs of young kids and most closed their doors around 2008. Openly gay people were routinely intimidated, and also packed up their bags. The author goes on to say that people in the media were agressively hostile to him for bringing the matter up. It's a more topical issue in Europe than the USA due to the relative large Muslim populations here. I think that communal quietism rules the day among Europe's chattering classes, if not an explicit defence of Islamism. The common parlance is that to bring or up or discuss the subject might "give ammunition to the far right" or some variation of that. For instance, a Islam-critical campaigner (Maryam Namazie) was breifly barred from speaking at a university campus by a student union because she could "incite hatred". Treating every criticism of Islam as a fifth column for war/discrimination is another common one. Again, in Britain recently, the National Union of Students refused to pass a motion condemning the Islamic State, because it "promoted war", even though the text of the motion said no such thing.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:44
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computer parts posted:It's very telling that the title of the thread is "The Left and Religion" yet all mentions of religion are of Islam. Well the forum's opinion of fundamentalist Christianity is self-evident, and I've seen plenty of negative talk about the nutty antics of Haredi Jews in Israel even though that's very far away from most of us as well.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:47
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computer parts posted:It's very telling that the title of the thread is "The Left and Religion" yet all mentions of religion are of Islam. It's because there's no controversy involving the Left and any other religion. Ted Cruz is an rear end in a top hat, done. We're all glad not to be Hasidic. Somehow though, Islam is the darling of campus poseur liberal artists.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:48
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MaxxBot posted:Well the forum's opinion of fundamentalist Christianity is self-evident, and I've seen plenty of negative talk about the nutty antics of Haredi Jews in Israel even though that's very far away from most of us as well. Once again, it's telling that your only frame of reference for leftism and religion is inherent opposition. This is not historically true.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:48
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My previous point of western society being unable to cope with radical religious extremists as that would require them to acknowledge in a general sense that they already exist at home. If you want an example, the militia movement in the US and how every mass shooting goes down in the media versus Brussels and France. Like I said, an out of context problem quote:This is a problem that is "outside the context" as it is generally not considered until it occurs, and the capacity to actually conceive of or consider the OCP in the first place may not be possible or very limited (i.e., the majority of the group's population may not have the knowledge or ability to realize that the OCP can arise, or assume it is extremely unlikely). An example of OCP is an event in which a civilization does not consider the possibility that a much more technologically advanced society can exist, and then encounters one. Commie NedFlanders posted:I think a lot of liberals simply align themselves with defending Islam simply because they don't want to be on the same side as Republicans who are critical of Islam I think most people have just a go along belief that "diversity" is good but there is some academic rigor by some as to why it's a good thing. Justice should be blind.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:49
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computer parts posted:It's very telling that the title of the thread is "The Left and Religion" yet all mentions of religion are of Islam. Christianity and Judaism have both been brought up, but Islam is a bit more topical right now for reasons that should be obvious.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:53
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Helsing posted:Christianity and Judaism have both been brought up, but Islam is a bit more topical right now for reasons that should be obvious. Again, only if your line of thinking is "what do we do with the damned theists". If your goal is to enact policy, you can get a lot more productive dialogue out of Jews and Christians (at least in the US) because they are a larger proportion of the population and/or have a larger share of influence than Muslims.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:55
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computer parts posted:Again, only if your line of thinking is "what do we do with the damned theists". Ah, yes, the solution is to join the anti-Islamic dialogue and vote for the next president that advocates disallowing Muslim immigration or mandatory profiling/registration/etc.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:57
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Panzeh posted:Ah, yes, the solution is to join the anti-Islamic dialogue and vote for the next president that advocates disallowing Muslim immigration or mandatory profiling/registration/etc. Who's talking about profiling? Christians have been a large source of worker rights and Civil Rights for quite a while. MLK was a pastor, after all.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:58
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The left is both anti-imperialist and anti-reactionary, which creates conflicting opinions on Islam. Another example could be the Catholic liberation movements in Latin America too, but Romero was killed 30 years ago so guess what it's Islam right now.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:58
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menino posted:The left is both anti-imperialist and anti-reactionary, which creates conflicting opinions on Islam. Thing is, Islam, like any other evangelical religion, is by its very nature imperialistic. Why do you think they speak Arabic in Morocco, thousands of miles from Arabia? If you are anti-imperialist, you must by definition oppose Islam.
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Mar 25, 2016 21:03
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menino posted:The left is both anti-imperialist and anti-reactionary, which creates conflicting opinions on Islam. Actual ideology has that kind of thing going on and it's an entirely human thing. Most people don't hold particularly consistent worldviews.
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Mar 25, 2016 21:03
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computer parts posted:Again, only if your line of thinking is "what do we do with the damned theists". Maybe because devout Christians and Jews here in the US tend to lean way to the right? Also at least in Christianity the denominations that have gone to the left over the past few decades are now in precipitous decline.
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Mar 25, 2016 21:04
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MaxxBot posted:Maybe because devout Christians and Jews here in the US tend to lean way to the right? Also at least in Christianity the denominations that have gone to the left over the past few decades are now in precipitous decline. Black Christians don't, even though they are conservative. Conservative Hispanics by and large still vote for Democrats as well.
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Mar 25, 2016 21:05
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That still counts as leaning to the right, even if they don't vote for the Republicans for fairly obvious reasons, they very well might if they weren't so explicitly racist and anti-immigrant.
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Mar 25, 2016 21:06
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TheImmigrant posted:Thing is, Islam, like any other evangelical religion, is by its very nature imperialistic. Why do you think they speak Arabic in Morocco, thousands of miles from Arabia? If you are anti-imperialist, you must by definition oppose Islam. Recency matters. Otherwise we'd all say "Kraut" is an offensive slur because of their manhandling by Gustavus Adolphus in 1618
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Mar 25, 2016 21:07
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MaxxBot posted:That still counts as leaning to the right, even if they don't vote for the Republicans for fairly obvious reasons. You said "lean way to the right". It's also important to note that economic and social conservatism is not identical. Even in the USSR you had many actions that would today be considered "extremely right" (like anti-semitism and homophobia).
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Mar 25, 2016 21:07
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TheImmigrant posted:Thing is, Islam, like any other evangelical religion, is by its very nature imperialistic. Why do you think they speak Arabic in Morocco, thousands of miles from Arabia? If you are anti-imperialist, you must by definition oppose Islam. What would that sort of anti-imperialism look like in practice? Eject all the speakers of Arabic from Morocco?
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Mar 25, 2016 21:10
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computer parts posted:You said "lean way to the right". Do you have some greater point you are trying to make or are you just pointing out that leftism isn't inherently anti-religion? I agree but I guess that all comes down to what the OP means by the "political left." There's not a conflict between leftist ideology and religion but there certainly is one between for example the "political left" in America and religion.
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Mar 25, 2016 21:24
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computer parts posted:Again, only if your line of thinking is "what do we do with the damned theists". What if the line of thinking is "what do we do about these people who keep attack civilian targets in Europe"?
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Mar 25, 2016 21:25
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Helsing posted:What if the line of thinking is "what do we do about these people who keep attack civilian targets in Europe"? We need to give people hope that a better world can be found without waging war on their perceived oppressors.
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Mar 25, 2016 21:36
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TheImmigrant posted:Because right-wing wanker criticizes wankers even further to the right, the progressive thing to do is embrace the most right-wing antagonist? What do you think criticism is? TheImmigrant posted:Do you have any position on this thread, or are you just here to enforce orthodoxy?
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Mar 25, 2016 22:02
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TheImmigrant posted:Thing is, Islam, like any other evangelical religion, is by its very nature imperialistic. Why do you think they speak Arabic in Morocco, thousands of miles from Arabia? If you are anti-imperialist, you must by definition oppose Islam. They speak generally speak Maghrebi Arabic, and uh, no, the historical spread of Arabic dialects has nothing to do imperialism. That's like suggesting I must oppose Catholicism because the people in France speak French.
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Mar 25, 2016 22:07
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Blurred posted:find me a theologian who is prepared to say openly that the dignity of God is not worth a single human life. 
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