The Left and Religion

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Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Ah time for the "Christanity is really Mithraism" part where someone who has read the 12 crucified saviors and Davinci Code pretends that reading those two books makes them knowledgeable on matters of faith in antiquity.

# ¿ Apr 3, 2016 19:56

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 16:44

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Thug Lessons posted:

An important thing to note about Roman religion was that it was very much an elite (and in fact explicitly state) institution, and for those elites took it as seriously as any Christian. It was really the weakness of the ruling elites that let Christianity sweep to power under Constantine and his successors, and while I can see how Christianity might be more theologically appealing to an ordinary Roman I wouldn't overstate it.

It had as much to do with the fact that the traditional pantheon was no longer much respected the 3rd century saw several attempts to impose Henotheism on the empire. Christianity had the benefit of both appealing to the lower classes and to the philosophers. I would even argue that at least at first Constantine was a Henotheist who became a Arian.

# ¿ Apr 3, 2016 20:09

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

blowfish posted:

Julian the Apostate did nothing wrong

Besides going to Antioch.

# ¿ Apr 3, 2016 21:05

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

TheImmigrant posted:

The fundamental difference is that Christianity is a spent force. This is a good thing. Unfortunately, we can't say the same about Islam.

Oh yes it also was a spent force in the 18th century.

# ¿ Apr 4, 2016 23:56

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

icantfindaname posted:

constantine was a despot who destroyed the enlightened liberty of the ancients and turned the Empire into a degenerate theocracy, FYI

Cannot tell if you actually think that Rome was some fantasy made up by enlightenment figures.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 05:43

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Panzeh posted:

It would be tough to consider God as any better than Adolf Hitler given his actions.

Yes because God doesn't turn you into a slave that makes God a mass murderer.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 15:50

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Who What Now posted:

No, I think it's the mass murders that would make him a mass murderer.

Yes what mass murders?

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 16:43

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Who What Now posted:

Which god are we talking about, specifically?

Which God? The God that exists beyond the universe, out of time.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 16:53

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

blowfish posted:

Oh in that case, god is completely irrelevant because he's literally doing nothing.

If we're talking about the god of the jews, christians, or muslims on the other hand...

Well God actually is beyond the Universe for God existed before it.

Who What Now posted:

That description is meaningless. What does it mean to be "beyond the universe"? What does it mean to be "out of time"?

I'll concede that a gibberish nonsense-God cannot commit murders, though.

Really? That the creator of the Universe cannot be part of that universe is meaningless. That time doesn't exist for the creator is gibberish?

I do love this thread is pushing the tired gibbonite narrative that the roman empire was some place of tolerance and light. Do you also think he was right about Democracy?

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 17:39

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Who What Now posted:

Yes, that's all gibberish. If you believe it isn't, explain why.

Well you cannot have time without the universe. So the creator must exist outside time. Likewise to create the universe the creator cannot be of the universe. Look the fact you cannot understand something this simple is beyond me.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 17:54

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Who What Now posted:

And is this an intercessory God?

Yes just as an artist can make alterations on their painting without being part of the painting.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 18:06

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Who What Now posted:

Then this god is at least partially culpable for every evil that occurs in the world. And to cut you off at the pass, no, that would no more violate anyone's free will than a human stopping a tragedy does.

Yes because you choose to be evil Its God's fault now for not making you a unthinking slave. I do love that argument.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 18:11

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Who What Now posted:

Does imprisoning a man who conspires to commit mass murder turn him into an unthinking slave? It obviously limits what he is physically capable of, but does it rob him entirely of his free will?

And not all evil is man-made, and could thus be prevented without violating anybody's free will. Not doing so when it can be done makes your God partially responsible for that.

How is it not all man made? Also a man imprisoned could reform.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 18:30

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Who What Now posted:

What man created cancer? What man created parasites that devour a person's eyes from the inside-out?

Can your God not reform a man without violating his free will? Is he that weak? That stupid that he cannot conceive of a way?

My original point near the bottom of the last page was about the culpability of God for the suffering of the world. The tangent about God being part of the universe just isn't interesting to me, so right now I'm accepting it for the sake of argument.

Oh well death is not evil. It is part of the mechanism of the universe. Also would not God entering a mans head for not being exact not be the definition of turning said man into a unthinking slave? Also you seem to want God to turn man into some sort of benthamnite pleasure creature that has no capacity for anything but pleasure. That would be rather redicullous wouldn't it?

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 18:55

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Who What Now posted:

I agree, but unnecessary suffering absolutely is.

Is that the only way your God could stop a murderer? That's it? He couldn't, say, teleport the victims to a safer location? Transform the weapon into a harmless vapor? Or do anything that a human could do to prevent the murder if they were there to do so? Mind control is literally your god's only power in this universe?

That's not what I'm saying, no, but I also wouldn't turn down living in a world where there is nothing but pleasure. I'd take that in a heartbeat.

1. You seem to see death as the unnecessary suffering.

2. YOu might as well have God then be constantly preventing man from doing anything then.

3. Well a life of only pleasure sounds quite sad.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 19:17

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

1 Ah so you prefer deaths that are just sudden. I can imagine how those living would like the sudden loss of loved ones.

2. Which makes man a slave.

3.Yes a life of only pleasure like I said its almost as if you want to just have the pleasure center of your brain hard wired.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 19:24

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Who What Now posted:

Not all suffering requires death, and in some cases death is a preferable choice to that suffering.

That's not what slavery is, no.

Yeah, that'd be pretty great, actually.

1. Did I say it did. But if you want death to be sudden then you still are causing suffering. In many ways considering your loved ones will be affected by sudden deaths.

2. Inability to commit actions through either intervention or rules. Sounds like slavery to me. Or else a desire by those who want it for God to be their permanent nanny.

3 Yes so you want to be a cennobite.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 19:34

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

khwarezm posted:

What do you think of every human society in the world?

Do they at the moment you think of doing something wrong come in and arrest you. Unless we all want something like Minority Report. Do you want God to be like that?

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 19:39

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

twodot posted:

If society for some reasons thinks it's better to allow someone to commit the wrong and then teleport them to prison, that still seems like an improvement on "we may or may not be able to punish the person performing the wrong, and also we may punish someone innocent".

Ahh so God is evil now because God will not teleport the evil doers away right now.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 19:44

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Peta posted:

Well, actually, yes, it's gibberish. It's impossible to conceptualize a being that exists outside of spacetime because in order to do so you need to apply concepts that depend on spacetime.

Really that which exist outside depends on space time? Also how is God constrained by space time? If one is timeless then one should be quite able to interact with the universe while being apart.

Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Apr 7, 2016

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 20:14

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Peta posted:

Describe the nature of - better yet, a day in the life of - an entity that lacks 100 percent of the attributes (i.e., all spatial/temporal/spatiotemporal attributes) that we understand all other entities to possess.

You mean something not encumbered by the laws of physics. Like say that which created the universe? Why again should it be subject to the mechanisms it created?

Panzeh posted:

I'm just not sure how someone can come out of the bible thinking God is the good guy in it, but here we are.

Well if you want to be a slave....

blowfish posted:

It also makes the whole exercise pretty pointless. Some sort of god may or may not exist but we are completely unable to come up with a useful framework for thinking about it so we might as well do something more useful and get on with our lives.

That's the great mystery.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 20:45

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Peta posted:

[1:26] Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/

Well he's got pretty poor powers of persuasion for an all-powerful all-knowing extracosmic autocrat.

1. The fact you cannot get the subtlety of that is beyond me. God gave us the ability to reason. Which is great
2. Well if you think everything isnpreordained then why is it preordained? You know Muslims and Calvinists have an answer there that you probably do not like.
3. You mean like how you know not to do certain actions? That's a pretty good power if you ask me. That some don't listen shows the nature of free will.

Panzeh posted:

The choice, slavery or genocide. What a wonderful thing.

It's like saying the alternative to the Holocaust was the annihilation of all Germans so it wasn't really bad.

Yes genocide comes from having free will. Thankfully God gives us the ability to reason. But in the end some do not use it. For that is that free will is non conditional. At least in this life.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 21:33

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Who What Now posted:

What do you mean "at least in this life"? Do you not have free will after death?

Well your choices at least there are probably for a good long while affect that existence.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 21:43

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Peta posted:

We can point to particular parts of the human brain that grant us our reasoning faculties. We can put different parts of the human brain to work and then use neuroimaging techniques to watch those parts light up. These are scientifically observable processes. Without spacetime, they can't happen. Explain how they would work in the case of a god that exists outside of spacetime.

Oh, man. Either you didn't read any of the article or you are very stupid (or very young). Determinism and fatalism are not the same thing, but determinism supplies very clear and compelling explanations.

Less than a third of humans are Christian.

1. So now you are saying humans are exactly like God which is rather funny to argue considering humans are limited beings.

2. Well if one believes in determinism one leaves one open to explaining what determines. It is not my fault your chosen explaination is undermined.

3. So? Universal salvation exists for all.

Also if you're mad at God that's between you and God.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 23:14

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Panzeh posted:

I wonder if the nature of Biblical punishments inspired Cortez and others' policies when they encountered indigenous people.

Perhaps the Aztec practice of human sacrifice justified the near annihilation of their people in slaughter and slavery. A very God-esque sense of logic, no?

Probably had something more to do with the allies of the Spanish really not liking the Aztecs and wanting to return the favor for past slights.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2016 02:02

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Panzeh posted:

I'm fairly sure you could draw this kind of positivity from Mein Kampf if you juxtaposed it with that much massaging in the guise of 'context'.

You just don't understand Hitler's way of communicating if you think Mein Kampf is horrible, really.

. Because Jesus was exactly like :hitler:

Also to all whining about God not proving to you that he is the creator. That's your fault you cannot see God's magnificence. Whine to God.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2016 07:18

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Peta posted:

Nope, that's not remotely what I'm saying. Genesis says humans resemble God. You have explain how this is possible in light of your claim that the worldly mechanisms underlying our characteristics do not apply to God, given that God supposedly exists beyond the scope of the cosmos.

Um. Determinism does explain what determines. That's the whole point of determinism.

Yeah, thanks to the backpedaling of modern papacy as it desperately attempts to keep pace with the advances of humanism.

1. Yeah not really being that its about Man being like the spiritual nature of God.

2. What determines determinism?

3. Yes Origen living in 2nd century Alexandria is very modern. Lol.

DeusExMachinima posted:

IIRC Crowsbeak tends to fall into the "if society makes you do it, then that's what your rights are" which I guess make sense in terms of stating what reality looks like. But he's always short on saying what should be.

He got hilariously defensive in some other thread I can't remember. I asked that since our rights are determined by might, what's wrong with a minority of society's population massacring everyone else for disagreeing with them and then saying everyone else had no right to life after all. I think it was the transgender rights thread.

I loved that thread because in the end it showed that you believe violence is the solution to problems if you cannot get your way right now, and isntead of working through say actual discourse. It really says alot about your personality Deus Ex that you beleive violence is the best solution. But then I don't have a fetish for private property.

Liberal_L33t posted:

It was the gender pronoun thread.

He's scum. Incidentally, to all the religious apologists in this thread - since people love to accuse me of being this and that - how's it feel being on the same side of an argument as Crowsbeak?

If not wanting to murder millions of Muslims makes me scum I consider myself on the right side. Rather than a literal sociopath.

J.A.B.C. posted:

Can I whine to Odin instead? Would that be more useful or less useful in seeing a grand design when all I see is nature and it's laws?

You could. Don't know if it would do you any good. As the Eddas are clear he is rather limited. But all power to you.

Rakosi posted:

Every thread about religion collapses into bullshit because there is a fundamental cognitive dishonesty that is almost universal among those who have faith. If you're Christian, you have to face up to the reality that every justification and reason you can possibly give to refute, say, the Qu'ran, as the one true word of God, is equally applicable to your own religion for others. You are only one god out of many away from being complete atheists.

Well I am willing to consider lesser beings exist. Doesn't mean that they should be worshiped. But people do worship them.

Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Apr 9, 2016

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 06:50

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

J.A.B.C. posted:

Ok, now step back, and let's rearrange some things.

And that's where we start to hit a roadblock.

I don't know if it's because you're being obtuse about it or if you genuinely don't understand this, but your perception of reality and the world around us is different, sometimes at odds, with myself, other non-faithful and almost everything we use to interpret the world around us. From the deep sciences on down to casual observation of ourselves and others, we've been able to come up with explanations for things that were once in the domain of the divine. Not that it makes them any more or less amazing or beautiful, just now that we can trace that back.

When you look at us and see that we can't behold divine inspiration, we look at you and see that you can't behold the simple but elegant way that the world comes together, or how it has built up to that point. In a way, we see each other on the same level: ignorant of a basic truth.

But back to the point up above. When you say that praying to Odin probably won't do me much good, then you are simply stating a name on a list to us. Praying to Odin would be about as effective as praying to Zeus, or sending offering to Izanagi, or baptising ourselves in Jesus' name. They are, at their most, literary and oratory figures that had significance in stories and parables of the past, but never actually existed or had any of the strange powers that their texts said they had. They are Gilgamesh, or King Arthur and his Scabbard, or Harry Dresden. 'God', with much the same proof and validity as these other deities, is just another name on the list of things we don't have any evidence to believe in.

So when you argue with us that we have to take up that argument with God, realize that I might as well argue with Harry Dresden. It'd accomplish the same amount of change and end in the same way.

Well you see actually I could consider them existing. But being that they are of only the universe they wouldn't do you much good. Compared to the actual Creator.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 14:49

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

J.A.B.C. posted:

Fine, then. By what standard does your God get any special treatment, as considered to the other Gods? Why is his creation myth valid while any number of others aren't?

Well my God almost certainly is their origin. Also about Allah, well to me Allah is just a bad interpretation of the Trinity. As are any other actual creator Gods.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 16:30

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Literally The Worst posted:

and your proof of this is?

Plato, Origen, Philo of Alexandria. The fact the pagan Gods were limited.

blowfish posted:

ok which god is your god and how do you know he's not just a figment of your imagination

Well I don't but then if you are implying I am insane in believing him I will gladly continue to seek him out. Because quite frankly his world is a good deal better then whatever you're offering.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 16:47

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

blowfish posted:

so how can you be sure (or even reasonably assume) you're not just using belief as a coping mechanism for depression

I cannot, none of us can. But I will still treat God to be there even if there isn't a God.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 16:52

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

blowfish posted:

so basically you need to think you're being watched over by ~~big brother~~ god to keep functioning and probably have too much sadbrains to appreciate a world where people are adults and can choose their own destiny.

Well it is sad that you think that being rude makes you an adult. Really I will say that if being secular means not being able to teach offspring how to not be rude then it really isn't worth it. At least thats what I am getting from you.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 16:58

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Literally The Worst posted:

"really what i'm hearing here is that not being religious makes you an immoral rear end in a top hat, shame, really"

come on dude

I didn't say not believing in God makes one so. I am saying that you two are very bad examples of your own side.

blowfish posted:

Still missing the point. At this point you're so thick it's probably intentional. Just in case you're actually that much of a dumb gently caress, being secular or religious and thinking that "wouldn't it be nice if we were all nice to each other " is the be-all end-all of human society aren't causally linked. See e.g. every religious extremist rear end in a top hat that exists.

So, people treating each other better is appalling. Good to know. Once again I feel bad that at the moment the atheist side is being so badly represented.

Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Apr 9, 2016

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 17:04

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Kilroy posted:

God exists because some atheists were mean to me on the internet

No, but atheism is rather badly represented when those promoting it believe being utterly rude is the best way to do so. I mean how many people here love those street preachers that tell everyone God hates them?

Literally The Worst posted:

all i asked for was for you to back up your claims, dude, don't lump me in with that ding dong

Already explained myself. I will believe in God even if God doesn't exist and live my life if God was there. Which of course makes me a horrible person.

blowfish posted:

if you think living in a nice but fundamentally delusional world is better than living in a world with rude people but where people actually try to discover and debate reality. protip: being rudely told off while someone is trying to prove your opinions dumb and wrong is better treatment than being babied by someone concerned over ever hurting someone's precious feelings

it makes you look like an eternal manchild

Yes suggesting you not be rude to people makes me the eternal manchild. I mean would you explain here why we should be rude to people over believing in God? I think it would be quite enlightening.

Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Apr 9, 2016

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 17:08

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Kilroy posted:

I didn't decide to be an atheist because I was annoyed by street preachers.

I didn't say you were. I am saying that Street preachers do not actually convert people but push them away. Just as you push people away from Atheism.,

blowfish posted:

I'm not trying to convert you over the internet.

THen why take offense to my believing in God if it was not offensive that I believed you would not care.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 17:12

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

blowfish posted:

Because we are having an internet slapfight on D&D

So it is then all about being : smugbert:

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 17:24

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Who What Now posted:

Again, humans are animals, we belong to the kingdom animalia, the phylum chordata, class synapsida, and so on so on so forth. So anything we can do is de facto something that can be done by animals (specifically the human animal). As for why we have different characteristics than other animals the answer is the same for why we can't run as fast as a cheetah, aren't a strong as a gorilla, and cannot fly like so many other species; we evolved differently. There's absolutely no reason to say that we are special beyond that we have evolved in a different manner when compared to other animals and not because of divine magic.

Yes you did. Right here, to be exact:

You do realize that people can scroll up to see what you posted before, right? What you say doesn't just evaporate into the aether.

The fact you cannot read is not my fault. As I said I was suggesting that he and you likewise are rather poor arguments for atheism. Sorry that you choose to not understand that.

But such is a person who believes life should consist of their brains pleasure center being constantly turned on like some Clive Barker character.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 17:53

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

blowfish posted:

Materialism is cool and good.

Perhaps we but the majority arguing for it in the thread are making poor arguments for it.

Kilroy posted:

Who do I push away from atheism? I actually know a few people who became atheist due to my influence and have remained so for decades. And I wasn't even trying to "convert" anyone!

The people in this thread aren't being that rude to you - it's more that you're just incredibly thin-skinned. I mean, the treatment you're getting is nothing compared to what would be coming your way if you were some kind of homophobe or bigot or something else that actually mattered instead of just having laughably wrong and anachronistic intuitions about how the universe works.

Yeah being rude tends to do that. Now the fact you can't deal is beyond me.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 18:22

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Panzeh posted:

I've still not seen anything posted in this thread substantively saying God is more moral than Hitler by his actual action

The Gnostics had the right idea. That's why the early church repressed them. Christianity has always been ruthlessly intolerant.

The Gnostics died out for not being popular. Sorry you cannot deal with history

Peta posted:

Our "spiritual nature" is explained through science. There's no reason to incorporate a totally unnecessary additional layer of explanation involving extracosmic nonsense.

Um. You can read a variety of books and articles on cosmology, multiverse theory, etc., if you're craving an explanation of the origins of the universe. Beyond that first starting point (and the claim that there is a particular starting point to spacetime is hugely controversial), determinism determines determinism.

Haha, hey, remember that time when abortion was a cardinal sin?

1. How do you explain God through science again?

2. I have didn't find them any more convincing also do you have any evidence of a multiverse?

3. It is a sin and one involved will have to deal with their actions.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 18:27

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 16:44

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

blowfish posted:

That's what happens when you stop arguing based on reason and evidence and start arguing based on personal preference.

It's not like we want everyone to join Team Atheist because we have free cookies.

No not really but it's easy to see you cannot stand people being theists.

Who What Now posted:

Yes, I'm well aware that you lied about your intent when called out on what you said. But of course someone who thinks all rules are literal chattel slavery has no qualms about lying.

I didn't I was arguing from a point of hyperbole. The fact you cannot understand this is rather hilarious.

Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Apr 9, 2016

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 18:29

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