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I will be loving amazed if Putin doesn't have a hand in this.
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Apr 3, 2016 08:49
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has georgia ever taken a position on armenia vs azerbaijan?
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Apr 3, 2016 09:19
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Turkish president: We stand with Azerbaijan 'to the end
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Apr 3, 2016 09:24
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Of course they will. 
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Apr 3, 2016 10:24
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Tommah posted:has georgia ever taken a position on armenia vs azerbaijan? Historic ties with Armenia. But that won't matter to the Russian tanks.
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Apr 3, 2016 11:02
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Russia is very particular about which historic ties are the ones that matter.
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Apr 3, 2016 11:19
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Unilateral ceasefires best ceasefires. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/fighting-persists-nagorno-karabakh-30-forces-killed-38116105
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Apr 3, 2016 11:47
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Dusty Baker 2 posted:Unilateral ceasefires best ceasefires.
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Apr 3, 2016 16:47
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Jesus christ, they're outright shelling civilians in Martakert? I know people there. This is horrific.  This (massively assholish) RT reporter is tweeting live from central NK: https://twitter.com/MuradoRT Looks like Armenia is pouring most of their military into the republic right now, and Azerbaijan was still shelling this morning post-ceasefire.
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Apr 3, 2016 18:56
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Rime posted:Jesus christ, they're outright shelling civilians in Martakert? I know people there. This is horrific. well i guess the "cease-fire" didnt mean poo poo.
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Apr 3, 2016 19:00
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Uhm, death to Erdogan?
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Apr 3, 2016 19:06
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Azerbaijan rolls troops in every April, usually just a few dustups to try and snipe some NK'ers around Aghdam so that they can trumpet about it in the domestic news. A few people die on each side, things settle down, the summer ends quietly. This year is way different, all my friends over there are packing bags in case they have to flee into Armenia. The general suspicion is that things have been going very badly for Aliyev in Azerbaijan recently, thanks to the low price of oil and increasing repression by his regime outside of Baku, and so he thought rolling into NK with the biggest operation since the 1990's would score political points and simmer things down at home. This is turning out to be a massive clusterfuck which appears to have cost him significant losses (though both sides are reporting wildly inaccurate casualties). The question now becomes whether he will back down and regroup, or decide to escalate into a full blown invasion. Azerbaijan has the upper hand in terms of hardware and budget, but they aren't the best trained troops around. Russia is unlikely to intervene in this, beyond selling poo poo to both sides. gently caress, I'm worried.
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Apr 3, 2016 19:18
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http://www.tert.am/en/news/2016/04/03/hetq/1982578  Armenian news is accusing Azerbaijanis of war crimes. more pics http://www.lragir.am/index/arm/0/photogal/view/130401 Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Apr 3, 2016 |
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Apr 3, 2016 19:34
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I Hope everything turns out ok.
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Apr 3, 2016 19:54
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SHISHKABOB posted:I Hope everything turns out ok. OK is relative in the caucuses
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Apr 3, 2016 20:01
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Uhm, death to Erdogan? Rexicon1 posted:OK is relative in the caucuses
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Apr 3, 2016 23:33
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fade5 posted:Masha'Allah, death to Erdogan. Ultimately, it really has nothing to do with Erdogan beyond some rhetoric though. This is pretty much Aliyev's show [who is very possibly as murderous if not more repressive than Erdogan].
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Apr 4, 2016 03:33
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Does Aliyev still shitpost on Twitter? I remember a thread a few years back where someone posted tweets of him trash-talking Armenia for being poor and Armenian.
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Apr 4, 2016 04:04
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I think he's passed it over to an intern, but it waffles between stiffly posting about economic prosperity deals and bitching about "the occupation". https://twitter.com/presidentaz/status/710063456498663424 https://twitter.com/presidentaz/status/708260499813699584 https://twitter.com/presidentaz/status/701825330009534464
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Apr 4, 2016 05:05
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HisMajestyBOB posted:
Just briefly -- pretty much anyone from the West can visit the NKR. I was issued a paper visa on arrival at the "border" -- a small checkpoint along the Goris (Armenia) to Stepanakert (NKR capital) highway, which itself is a bit of a hairy road. I imagine it takes some nerves of steel to drive in SCUDs or trucks carrying tanks along it. I stayed at a homestay recommended in the NYT. The host was gracious enough and pretty involved in the community there, although it was interesting that like some Karabakh Armenians they spoke Russian in the household. His family was also, like many Armenians in the NKR or in Armenia proper, born and raised in Baku and fled the city as the war broke out. During the height of the war both sides engaged in pogroms, so while up until about 1990 you used to have Azeri mosques in Yerevan and Armenian cemeteries in Baku these are all abandoned or repurposed now. I've been to a couple other tense regions -- Israel and the West Bank, Bosnia and Serbia, as well as the Thailand-Myanmar border -- and I can say definitely that the animosity expressed toward Azeris by Karabakh Armenians was the most open racism I've seen in a post-war society. For whatever reason, people kept driving home the point to me that Armenians are the rightful owners of the area and that there's no such thing as Azerbaijan. I heard from several people that Azeris are really just uncivilized mountain Turks, the Azeri language is just broken Turkish, etc. Obviously there is a deep, traumatic history between the Armenians and Turkic people in Anatolia and the South Caucasus, so some of this is understandable in context. This is no sleight against Karabakh Armenians and I'm sure isn't representative of the whole, and it's worth remembering that it was a pretty brutal war -- the Armenians massacred a few hundred Azeri civilians in the village of Khojaly, and for six months the Azeris rained shells onto Stepanakert, killing more than a thousand Armenian civilians. And if what I've seen on social media is any indication lots of Azeris harbor similar opinions of Karabakh Armenians, so I figure it'd kind of mutual. For tourist purposes, the NKR holds a few sites of interest. There's the abandoned Azeri city of Aghdam (loot from which my host had built his house...), pretty much all busted up and sitting in situ along the front lines, and you can check it out from your car if you visit the ancient ruins of Tigranakert like I did. The capital Stepanakert is pretty quiet, there's a few decent restaurants for dirt cheap and I imagine some funky clubs if you get some locals to steer you in the right direction. The scenery is pretty beautiful and definitely pockmarked with the scars of war. I found all the locals to be almost overwhelmingly friendly. Making "friends" and getting invited to people's homes for meals, etc. is pretty easy for anyone with basic social graces, although there's a pretty big language gap if you don't know some Russian or Armenian. A lot of the place is really Kafkaesque -- you have to register your arrival with the "foreign ministry," which is basically a dude with a fax machine downtown. And the "republic" does have a fully functioning modern airport -- fully staffed and everything -- but it doesn't have any flights because it's not recognized by the global air traffic framework. So it's open but empty. Overall, I'd say the vast majority of people just want peace and just want outside powers to recognize them. Several people told me they don't care who -- the US, EU, or Russia -- but they want a patron who will back them against what they see as an aggressive and existential Azeri threat. I visited shortly after a helicopter was shot down in late 2014, and the attitude at the time was that this poo poo happens every now and then. My impression is that the fighting over the past few days is entirely new and unprecedented. When it comes to who is "right" in the conflict, I believe both sides should strive for peaceful mediation at virtually all costs. Any war will only threaten the impoverished Azeri communities that flank the NKR's periphery and their Armenian counterparts along the line of contact. Should either side advance significantly beyond borders then we're talking about wide scale ethnic cleansing -- a total Azeri victory, for example, would likely see the explosion of the NKR's 150,000 residents -- 99 % Armenian -- who have mostly been living in the area for generations. The whole thing is a pretty big poo poo sandwich, and I hope for everyone's sake that fighting abates as soon as possible. MothraAttack fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Apr 4, 2016 |
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Apr 4, 2016 16:15
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Separate post to cover some current events. The fighting has continued today -- reportedly heavier than yesterday -- suggesting that we may indeed be returning to a resumption of hostilities. Here Azerbaijan allegedly hit a bus carrying Armenian volunteers, killing at least five. http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-nagorno-karabakh-armenia-bus-idUKKCN0X11X2?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter And here is a drone video of what Azerbaijan says is it hitting an Armenian command center with artillery fire. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st6bshQjtPU Meanwhile, the Azeri government has threatened to shell the capital of Stepanakert directly should the Armenians continue fighting. http://en.apa.az/xeber_azerbaijani_defense_minister_tells_armed_241620.html It's getting ugly.
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Apr 4, 2016 19:20
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Does any of the belligerents have sufficient personnel/equipment to occupy the other side or are they just going to try and level their enemy back to the ground, should things turn uglier?
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Apr 4, 2016 19:29
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I thought the Azeris declared a unilateral ceasefire? Did that ever get officially rescinded?
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Apr 4, 2016 19:48
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ReagaNOMNOMicks posted:Does any of the belligerents have sufficient personnel/equipment to occupy the other side or are they just going to try and level their enemy back to the ground, should things turn uglier? it would probaly be a bloody stalemate. unless one directly invaded the other. but they mostly fighting over one territory.
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Apr 4, 2016 19:56
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Friendly Humour posted:I thought the Azeris declared a unilateral ceasefire? Did that ever get officially rescinded? They didn't seem to ever have enacted it since they've been shelling Martakert continuously (and vice versa).
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Apr 4, 2016 20:36
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On a tangentially related note, where is Nakhichevan in all of this? Does Aliyev have any real pull over there or is it functionally its own country?
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Apr 4, 2016 20:44
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HorseRenoir posted:On a tangentially related note, where is Nakhichevan in all of this? Does Aliyev have any real pull over there or is it functionally its own country? It's a puppet dictatorship under the control of Azerbaijan, a fully corrupt and North-Korea-esque little fiefdom. It's telling how Azerbaijan trumpets endlessly about NK, but Armenians just look at the massive tank barrier they built along the Nakhichevan border and shudder in fear and sadness. I spent 3 weeks in Karabakh last year, have been everywhere in the republic, and have friends across it who I regularly correspond with. If you have any questions about the place  . MothraAttacks's summary is pretty accurate.
Rime fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Apr 4, 2016 |
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Apr 4, 2016 20:58
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MothraAttack posted:They didn't seem to ever have enacted it since they've been shelling Martakert continuously (and vice versa). Yeah, but it speaks of high incompetence if they can't even be bothered to come up with a reason to officially rescind it.
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Apr 4, 2016 21:03
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Dusty Baker 2 posted:Weaponized shitposts. SA is a nuclear power then, we should be good
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Apr 4, 2016 21:21
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Would be interested in some Azerbaijani perspectives in this thread for balance. I've been to Azerbaijan more times than I can remember as my in laws are Azeri. I've spent plenty of time in the country, but never to the conflict zones. What Mothra Attack said earlier about Armenian hostility towards Azeris goes the other direction. My wife doesn't deal well with even the mention is Armenians and that's pretty much been the case with nearly all Azeris, Tartars or any other non-Azeris I met in Azerbaijan. Generally the conflict is a discussion I preferred to avoid, but it is featured daily on Azeri television in the news and in small commercial segments.
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Apr 4, 2016 21:28
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Rip Testes posted:Would be interested in some Azerbaijani perspectives in this thread for balance. I've been to Azerbaijan more times than I can remember as my in laws are Azeri. I've spent plenty of time in the country, but never to the conflict zones. What Mothra Attack said earlier about Armenian hostility towards Azeris goes the other direction. My wife doesn't deal well with even the mention is Armenians and that's pretty much been the case with nearly all Azeris, Tartars or any other non-Azeris I met in Azerbaijan. Generally the conflict is a discussion I preferred to avoid, but it is featured daily on Azeri television in the news and in small commercial segments. buy your in laws SA accounts then.
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Apr 4, 2016 21:30
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Rip Testes posted:Would be interested in some Azerbaijani perspectives in this thread for balance. I've been to Azerbaijan more times than I can remember as my in laws are Azeri. I've spent plenty of time in the country, but never to the conflict zones. What Mothra Attack said earlier about Armenian hostility towards Azeris goes the other direction. My wife doesn't deal well with even the mention is Armenians and that's pretty much been the case with nearly all Azeris, Tartars or any other non-Azeris I met in Azerbaijan. Generally the conflict is a discussion I preferred to avoid, but it is featured daily on Azeri television in the news and in small commercial segments. My family is Armenian so I hear the Armenian side all the time, but I am genuinely interested in hearing the Azeri side so please post more if you can.
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Apr 4, 2016 21:43
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Rip Testes posted:Would be interested in some Azerbaijani perspectives in this thread for balance. I've been to Azerbaijan more times than I can remember as my in laws are Azeri. I've spent plenty of time in the country, but never to the conflict zones. What Mothra Attack said earlier about Armenian hostility towards Azeris goes the other direction. My wife doesn't deal well with even the mention is Armenians and that's pretty much been the case with nearly all Azeris, Tartars or any other non-Azeris I met in Azerbaijan. Generally the conflict is a discussion I preferred to avoid, but it is featured daily on Azeri television in the news and in small commercial segments. Well to be clear during the initial days of the conflict, there were atrocities committed on both sides and certainly many Azerbaijanis civilians were killed.That part of the story isn't a lie, but simply that Azerbaijan ignores atrocities committed on Armenian civilians. Ultimately, I think generally because Azerbaijan lost the war, that events of the conflict has been build up into a story of "national humiliation" that is still largely rare in the modern world. In turn, the Aliyev family, which has been dominating Azerbaijan since the sixties, has in turn used to conflict to generally cover up the massive amount of corruption and human rights abuses committed by their regime. Baku does very much feel like a "Dubai on the Caspian" tons of new condos and skyscrapers, and a massive amount of people who live in little more than hovels. Oddly enough though, due to both the isolation of the regime and its relative "non-aligned" status both Russia and the US [as well as the EU] have largely ignored what goes on in Azerbaijan beyond selling weapons. If anything Azerbaijan has been slowly been creeping towards a "European identity" through hosting Eurovision and the European games even though it is probably the most autocratic if not out right totalitarian regime in the region [that includes Iran, Turkey, Russia]. Also Azerbaijani society is historically and culturally influenced by Persia and despite obvious Soviet influences, it is hard to figure out why they would be European and Iran isn't [or much of North Africa]. Obviously, this isn't the Azerbaijani perspective but rather what I have gotten from talking with Azerbaijani intellectuals. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Apr 4, 2016 |
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Apr 4, 2016 21:52
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Thanks to everyone for all the informative posts, they are very good and interesting.MothraAttack posted:I heard from several people that Azeris are really just uncivilized mountain Turks, the Azeri language is just broken Turkish, etc.
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Apr 4, 2016 23:31
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The hot blooded mountain men are at it again.
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Apr 5, 2016 01:10
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fade5 posted:Thanks to everyone for all the informative posts, they are very good and interesting. Real Turks obviously roam the steppe and shoot arrows on horseback at breakneck speed. Not like those foolish Mountain Turks. edit: for actual content... This conflict is very intriguing to me. I don't know much about the Caucasus Region, north or south, except in the context of the geopolitics of the Byzantine Empire. The Caucasus mountains form a barrier between the Steppe and both Northeast Anatolia and Northwest Iran. The Byzantines and various Persian dynasties were therefore always backing different players in the region, both to protect their flanks and to expose those of their adversary. The peculiar geography of the Caucasus meant a petty warlord could set up a roughly hewn stone tower and make himself master of a portion of a strategic valley, and thus a critical destination for Persian and Byzantine bribery. The region was therefore full of different warlords and chieftains running their own little fiefdoms, with occasional big bosses running whole valleys or more, and each with loyalty for sale at reasonable prices. Geography also placed a lot of different ethnicities and religions in close proximity, which also ensured plenty of opportunity for neighboring powers to produce and maintain instability. A cursory glance at this thread and articles about this current conflict suggest that things are not drastically different today. Is that accurate? Grand Theft Autobot fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 5, 2016 01:58
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fade5 posted:Thanks to everyone for all the informative posts, they are very good and interesting. Aren't turkomen originally from the mountainous regions of eastern central asia?
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Apr 5, 2016 04:01
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:A cursory glance at this thread and articles about this current conflict suggest that things are not drastically different today. Is that accurate? Yes and no, the Soviet Union did much to homogenize the cultures within their respective nations (mainly by forcibly resettling particularly stubborn groups, like the Svans, in places like Kazakhstan). Georgia, for example, is five drastically different little cultural groups which make up the Georgian nation and which united centuries ago to face off against Genghis Khan. These cultural divisions are still present, the food and quirks are very different in Tusheti vs. Svaneti for example, but they aren't raiding each others towns over blood feuds like they were back in the 19th century. Similarly, Armenians and Karabakh-Armenians view each other as slightly separated cultures descended from the same parent. The language is subtly different in Karabakh, the people react differently (a little blunter, less reserved and more hot-tempered than your average Armenian). A good parallel would be how people in Carolina or Virginia are different from Californians. Still American, but the culture is changed. The division in culture goes way back. If you visit the Metanadaran in Yerevan you can see examples of illuminated manuscripts dating back to the 12th century and earlier. Examples from Karabakh use deep colours, with heavy contrasts and rich symbolism, and they also feature women. Examples from Armenia proper, in this era centred in the capital of Ani, are much more byzantine: lots of bright colours and gold leaf, no women, blunt meaning. When it comes to the Armenian / Azeri divide, that blood goes back nearly a thousand years. You have to remember that at one point the Armenian Empire was the direct rival of Byzantium in terms of wealth and ecclesiastical influence, ruling over most of central Anatolia and all the way to the Caspian Sea in modern day Azerbaijan. It's not just because of the genocide that Armenians hate the Turkish tribes: if it weren't for imperial Russia taking over the Caucasus, the Turks would have wiped Armenia off the map entirely. To this day the capital of their former empire sits a kilometre over the Turkish border, while Azerbaijan has spent 30 years systematically erasing every pre-turkic monument they can find. The Caucasus is loving fascinating, it's a shame so little academic history has been translated into English. My Imaginary GF posted:Aren't turkomen originally from the mountainous regions of eastern central asia? Yes, they came from Mongolia and north central asia. The horde under Atilla is largely believed to have been Turkic in origin, now. Going further into history, you'll recognize them as the Scythians. Rime fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 5, 2016 04:09
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Scythians are Iranian.
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Apr 5, 2016 22:35
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Thanks Rime. A comparison I was going to make is that Karabakh is to Armenia how Texas or New Orleans are to much of the rest of the U.S. -- distinctly different and sometimes the locals view themselves a such but still part of the cultural continuum. Also Karabakh has a weird homesteading/frontier vibe that the rest of Armenia doesn't.
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Apr 5, 2016 22:42
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