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LloydDobler posted:And the things I love about Heat are all the sub themes throughout. It's a super long film and yet I wouldn't call any of the scenes wasted or throwaway. They all serve to drive one of the many themes along. The main one being how the cop and the criminal aren't all that different. Their desire for love and normalcy in spite of how it doesn't really fit in to their lives, how sharp and in tune their instincts are in regard to their jobs, etc etc etc. Over the countless times I've seen Heat I think my favourite scenes in the film slowly ended up being the ones between Neil and Eady: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOpqdTeYMC8 I don't know why more movies don't feature relationships based on loneliness... Too close to reality?
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Apr 14, 2016 22:46
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Heat is definitely De Niro's movie. Pacino was already into that phase of his career where he was a parody of himself, but De Niro put in a vintage performance. Maybe one of his last depending on your opinion.
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Apr 14, 2016 22:49
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Pacino's performance is paired with De Niro's perfectly, though. In an opposites attract kind of way, they're a couple. It's all in the colour of their suits. McCauley is dispassionate to the point of isolation. He's a skilled thief, but not a passionate one. It's a job that he's perfect at. He wears a grey suit, his life is stripped of colour. His personal life is bare out of necessity. Pacino is the opposite. His ability as a cop stems completely from his passion. He loves doing what he does and approaches it with emotional intensity. His personal life is neglected because there's no thrill in it compared to police work (note the only time he successfully interacts with his wife or her daughter is during a crisis, the daughter's suicide). He wear's darker suits, throughout. In the end, when McCauley goes back for Waingrow, an act of passion and justice, an act not driven by cold rationality, he swaps his grey jacket for the dark blue jacket of the hotel, because he's driven by something other than necessity. There is so goddamn much to that movie. I've ended up watching it a dozen times or so, and every time I do, there's a little detail I missed the last time.
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Apr 15, 2016 00:21
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Fun fact, De Niro's grey suit and white shirt (along with Cruise's outfit in Collateral) were chosen because according to Mann it's much easier to blend in or be forgettable while wearing that.
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Apr 15, 2016 00:46
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HP Hovercraft posted:I did just watch Thief again and honestly it might be my favorite of his, everything that makes his cinema great is there in that film. The Tangerine Dream soundtrack kills it from the first scene to the end. James Caan gives probably his best performance in it, and Tuesday Weld is Tuesday Weld, you can't take your eyes off her whenever she's onscreen. It struck me how great the screenplay was, and how great a screenwriter Mann really is. The diner scene is a masterclass. Yeah, it's one of those fully formed debut features (like Eraserhead and a bunch of others) where everything interesting about the director thematically, narratively, or formally is on display. Basebf555 posted:Heat is definitely De Niro's movie. Pacino was already into that phase of his career where he was a parody of himself, but De Niro put in a vintage performance. Maybe one of his last depending on your opinion. Hmm, I dunno. I agree about De Niro obviously (though he's not bad in Ronin) but Pacino's no slouch either, and I think he only got truly bad after 2000, his performance in The Insider is great (although that one too is more Crowe's movie than his, but I think the same sort of yin yang performance balance as in Heat is going on.) I think he does an effective job at being, as mentioned, someone who's passionate about his career, and especially as an aging officer who's still trying to be an intimidator. Cacator posted:Fun fact, De Niro's grey suit and white shirt (along with Cruise's outfit in Collateral) were chosen because according to Mann it's much easier to blend in or be forgettable while wearing that. This touches on something interesting that I generally don't see brought up about his characters costumes, which is that they tend to wear sunglasses usually for the sake of anonymity as well. I think Blackhat really hammers this home especially with it taking up the issue of cybersecurity.
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Apr 15, 2016 01:32
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I mean, Pacino's character was supposed to be a guy who was scoring from the drugs they were confiscating, so its not surprising that his performance gets wild at times. However his silent performance at the end is great. He has this great weariness on his face, and this sense of loss that you don't need him to articulate because it's all right there.
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Apr 15, 2016 11:15
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Hey 1994 Al Pacino, your motivation in this scene is "cocaine".
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Apr 15, 2016 13:10
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I watched the Insider for the first time yesterday and it was brilliant, as much as I love Thief and Last of the Mohicans this is almost certainly his best movie.
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Apr 15, 2016 13:14
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For me, the juice is the action.
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Apr 15, 2016 13:33
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I watched the Insider for the first time yesterday and it was brilliant, as much as I love Thief and Last of the Mohicans this is almost certainly his best movie. Christopher Plummer is excellent in that.
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Apr 15, 2016 13:43
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Christopher Plummer is excellent in that. he really disappears into the role to the point where you almost forget it's not actually Mike Wallace. similar to David Straithairn in Good Night and Good Luck (except in that case, y'know, Edward R. Murrow was long dead)
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Apr 15, 2016 14:07
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there are so many amazing character performances in Heat that the one which is always overlooked is Dennis Haysbert as Donald, the last second replacement driver at the final bank robbery. His character is given a backstory and time to breathe and there is an amazing moment in the film where he is self-pitying himself against an AMAZING score in the backdrop and says the line, "Whatcha doin' with me Lilly?" that always gives me chills. I can't find the scene on youtube anymore but here comedy alternative #1 - https://youtu.be/YdxIOxg-8_8
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Apr 15, 2016 15:22
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I watched the Insider for the first time yesterday and it was brilliant, as much as I love Thief and Last of the Mohicans this is almost certainly his best movie. Best part of that flick is when Russell Crowe gets called into that office, goes to sit down, and the view slowly cranes downward until you see that there are two ominous looking dudes sitting in chairs behind him. Thoroughly chilling.
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Apr 15, 2016 15:29
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I love Heat. It's a bit weird for me though, its runtime feels long but the story is efficiently told, I wouldn't cut any scene from it. "The LAPD - police department. Just got made" Dead Snoopy posted:there are so many amazing character performances in Heat that the one which is always overlooked is Dennis Haysbert as Donald
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Apr 15, 2016 16:05
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gently caress me Last of the Mohicans is a great movie. Just watched it for the first time because of this thread and I'm just stunned by how good it was. And that score was just beautiful.LloydDobler posted:This is the post that describes my feelings best so far, so I'll just quote it. I'm really impressed how moving that moment/their relationship was considering the relatively small amount of screen time they actually had. Popelmon fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 01:48
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I love Collateral unconditionally. If I had a son I would name him Collateral. There's probably a bunch I could type about Collateral but I feel this piece does so a bit better than I can: http://www.ew.com/ew/static/longform/collateral/desktop/
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Apr 16, 2016 11:34
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Collateral is one of the few movies I've ever experienced when people actually broke into applause in the theater during the movie's finale.
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Apr 16, 2016 15:55
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:The totally uncommented-on Alice subplot in Last of the Mohicans is incredible. I recall reading that they filmed a scene of her making out with Uncas, maybe even implied sex, but it was cut. I'm of two minds whether that was a good move or not. On one hand, the tragedy is definitely enhanced in the finished version, where their attraction is unconsumated because the world won't allow it. On the other, the film would be a lot more impressive for it having it onscreen.
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Apr 16, 2016 23:37
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Darko posted:The big problem with Miami Vice is that, as I've heard, Foxx threw a tantrum and got tired of shooting the film, and they didn't do the climax yet, which was planned to a big location-set sequence - so the movie just kind of fizzles out and builds to nothing in particular. Makes sense. I really didn't like Miami Vice outside some of the cinematography, but a lot of that is due to Foxx too. It was a huge disappointment (I never saw the TV show either so I didn't have any expectations about it) especially coming after Collateral and I loving loved Collateral--the LA feel is absolutely perfect and Tom Cruise was excellent in it. I think it's the last real good movie he did which is sad since it's over 12 years old by now but I think it's tied with Heat for me as a Mann-favorite and just one of my favorite action movies ever. But really they could have got anyone whose slightly bumbling enough to play Max in there too and in some ways Foxx also brings it down just a little bit there as well.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:07
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I don't think Vice(tv) is on Netflix or Amazon anymore, but if you get the chance, check out the episode "Out Where The Buses Don't Run". It's perfect early Miami Vice.
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Apr 19, 2016 04:48
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I finally read about that new edit of Blackhat Michael Mann screened. I really hope that gets released at some point (the article implied that Mann hadn't actually finished it and that he seems to re-edit movies he did years ago just for kicks?). I love Manhunter but if I can own four different cuts of it than they can sure as hell get out a second cut of a recent flick like Blackhat where all the assets/etc. are likely much better preserved.
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Apr 19, 2016 18:34
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I really want to see Blackhat recut.
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Apr 19, 2016 18:34
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The shot near the end of Blackhat where Chris Hemsworth is moving through the crowd, and everyone but him is obscured by motion blur is one of the more striking things I've seen done with digital cinematography.
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Apr 19, 2016 19:45
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SouthLAnd posted:I don't think Vice(tv) is on Netflix or Amazon anymore, but if you get the chance, check out the episode "Out Where The Buses Don't Run". It's perfect early Miami Vice. I watched the first two seasons of Miami Vice and had a blast. From what I read S3 is where it starts going downhill. Apparently by S4 there is an episode involving aliens (the little grey kind).
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Apr 19, 2016 19:45
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Black Bones posted:I recall reading that they filmed a scene of her making out with Uncas, maybe even implied sex, but it was cut. They do leave in a crucial scene, when Uncas and Hawkeye are having their wounds dressed by what's her face and Alice. The Hawkeye/English Patient romance weirdly functions as subtext, to the Uncas/Alice romance. She wants to be free of this genteel courtship and giving away, but also likes being a lady. She wants a little independence and here comes this earthy hunk. Best of all, he's white. But Alice isn't like that, she doesn't want the Disneyfied Leatherstockings Tales version of a Mohawk. It may look like she merely objectifies Uncas and how fit and dark he is, but the intensity of her attraction to him is so evident that you could establish it in like 20 seconds. It could so easily come across like she just wants to gently caress this guy but it's one of the most effective and surprising "love at first sight" moments I've ever seen in a movie (for another example, see Ray Liotta and Debi Mazar in Goodfellas), and that's not something I exactly expected from Mann.
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Apr 19, 2016 19:58
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Neo Rasa posted:I finally read about that new edit of Blackhat Michael Mann screened. I really hope that gets released at some point (the article implied that Mann hadn't actually finished it and that he seems to re-edit movies he did years ago just for kicks?). Michael Mann is the Kanye West of movies. (Alternatively, Kanye West is the Michael Mann of music.)
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Apr 20, 2016 23:27
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Great thread. Mann's work is divisive to me like it is to a lot of people but I genuinely love a few of his movies - The Insider is his best for mine. I too watched The Last of the Mohicans because of the thread and it's an excellent piece of work. That final 10 minutes is unbelievably good (quite possibly the best sequence of his career) and it made the whole movie work for me. It's the kind of emotional/visceral payoff that most other directors couldn't have brought to life. I love how brisk the whole movie is without feeling rushed too. That kind of pacing in a period piece really worked in favour of the story.
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Apr 21, 2016 03:34
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I really loved The Last of the Mohicans when I saw it over five years ago and really want to see it again on a big screen. How do you guys feel about its racial politics, though? Its portrayal of noble savages and white saviors hasn't aged well at all, I think. I can still enjoy it as a popcorn flick but I guess I wish we got a bit more nuance to the Native American characters.
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Apr 21, 2016 04:15
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Vegetable posted:I really loved The Last of the Mohicans when I saw it over five years ago and really want to see it again on a big screen. How do you guys feel about its racial politics, though? Its portrayal of noble savages and white saviors hasn't aged well at all, I think. I can still enjoy it as a popcorn flick but I guess I wish we got a bit more nuance to the Native American characters. It feels dated and is definitely heavily romanticised but I don't necessarily feel it paints the Native American characters in a bad light. I thought Magua was a good character and had motives beyond being a 'savage'. From the sounds of it a lot of development for Uncas was cut which is definitely a shame, I felt he and Chingachgook could have used more backstory and screentime considering the important roles they play. I feel like a lesser movie would have had the final fight between Magua/Chingachgook instead been between Magua/Hawkeye and I appreciated that it didn't go in that direction. For mine the politics in the film can leave you feeling a bit seedy and the focus on the white characters is easy to see but the scenes between Native Americans in the movie are still emotionally resonant and strong. It didn't feel as off in that regard as something like The Last Samurai.
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Apr 21, 2016 05:00
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Apr 21, 2016 14:45
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Vegetable posted:I really loved The Last of the Mohicans when I saw it over five years ago and really want to see it again on a big screen. How do you guys feel about its racial politics, though? Its portrayal of noble savages and white saviors hasn't aged well at all, I think. I can still enjoy it as a popcorn flick but I guess I wish we got a bit more nuance to the Native American characters. It's more nuanced than you might think. Russell Means (Chingachgook) who himself was one of the most prominent Red Power activists of the 20th century, originally wanted to play Magua because he's not just a one-dimensional evil dude. He's charged with making sure his tribe survives, and is forced to pick a side in a conflict that really has nothing to do with him or his people. That monologue he gives to the French dude in the woods adds a lot of depth to the character. Even Uncas and Alice's unconsummated romance is a trope more commonly reserved for the John Waynes and Henry Fondas of the story. I don't think you're entirely off base and a 25 year old movie is always going to look culturally regressive in some fashion, but part of Mann's whole drive with the picture was to bring more nuance to a traditionally exploited culture in Hollywood. It's relatively progressive looking at the decades before it, but seeing it now makes it clear how much is left to be desired.
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Apr 21, 2016 15:08
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Vegetable posted:I really loved The Last of the Mohicans when I saw it over five years ago and really want to see it again on a big screen. How do you guys feel about its racial politics, though? Its portrayal of noble savages and white saviors hasn't aged well at all, I think. I can still enjoy it as a popcorn flick but I guess I wish we got a bit more nuance to the Native American characters. Magua is the coolest hero in any Mann film, period.
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Apr 21, 2016 17:16
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Yeah Magua loving rules
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Apr 21, 2016 17:20
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After being inspired by this thread to watch Blackhat and Insider I can attest this to be a very accurate portrait of the M Mann emotion Who else itt watched 13 Hours for Dion Bebee? The color in that movie is amazing.
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Apr 21, 2016 22:05
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Kull the Conqueror posted:It's more nuanced than you might think. Russell Means (Chingachgook) who himself was one of the most prominent Red Power activists of the 20th century, originally wanted to play Magua because he's not just a one-dimensional evil dude. He's charged with making sure his tribe survives, and is forced to pick a side in a conflict that really has nothing to do with him or his people. That monologue he gives to the French dude in the woods adds a lot of depth to the character. Yeah, I think it's still pretty novel about the way it approaches Native Americans today, because it grants them complexity, nuance, and agency in ways that are still super rare in fiction. If anything, I'd say the film's agenda was to complicate and deconstruct "noble savage" myths by painting a more detailed picture of colonial geopolitics. The political constellation maps out unique relationships and motivations for Hurons, Mohicans, Mohawks, etc., just as it does for French or English colonists. The entire reason Magua works as a character - at once deeply sympathetic and convincingly villainous - is because of how well the film constructs him and his world on a human level. The ending scene blows my mind, and not just on a craft level. It re-frames the entire story in ways that marginalize the *white* characters instead of the indigenous ones. Uncas' death is ultimately more important than Duncan's, motivating Alice's suicide and setting the stage for the final confrontation, which is between Magua and Chingachgook. Hawkeye essentially shifts from the lead to a sidekick.
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Apr 22, 2016 01:10
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It's nice seeing that Michael Mann came out with a re-cut of Blackhat. Not to say that i didn't enjoy the initial cut, but i am currious to see what he came up with. Also the talk of Manhunter has me wanting to watch it all over again.
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Apr 22, 2016 01:39
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Kull the Conqueror posted:It's more nuanced than you might think. Russell Means (Chingachgook) who himself was one of the most prominent Red Power activists of the 20th century, originally wanted to play Magua because he's not just a one-dimensional evil dude. He's charged with making sure his tribe survives, and is forced to pick a side in a conflict that really has nothing to do with him or his people. That monologue he gives to the French dude in the woods adds a lot of depth to the character. AIM leader Dennis Banks even has a brief cameo as a Mohawk chief. Means wasn't really a good enough actor for Magua, Wes Studi deservedly launched his career with that role. Mann's film definitely set the bar at the time for working with aboriginals to create a more authentic image of them in film, but it's probably almost impossible to remove all the racist assumptions from Cooper's story. Chingachgook's speech, where he gives the land to his white son and says the title, it's presented as a sad yet inevitable fact. I mean thankfully, Cooper and the 19th century were wrong; the Mohicans survived and are still around. But this story (and others) definitely influence how society in general still tries to act like the real Indians have all faded away, like elves or something.
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Apr 22, 2016 02:52
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It may be apocryphal, but apparently they show this scene at Marines bootcamp to help them practice reloading their rifles. "If this namby-pamby Hollywood boy can switch out a magazine in less than five seconds there's loving excuse for you to be slower!"
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Apr 22, 2016 17:40
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Vegetable posted:I really loved The Last of the Mohicans when I saw it over five years ago and really want to see it again on a big screen. How do you guys feel about its racial politics, though? Its portrayal of noble savages and white saviors hasn't aged well at all, I think. I can still enjoy it as a popcorn flick but I guess I wish we got a bit more nuance to the Native American characters. Considering the time it was made (24 years ago, around the time of Dances with Wolves) and the source material, I thought Mann did a fantastic job with his portrayals. I especially like the speech Magua gives for his motivations, and the part near the end at the Huron village really plays into the complex relationships that Native Nations had not only with each other, but with the European colonists as well. I mean yea at the end of the day its about a white man adopted into a native tribe on a mission to rescue white women from the other "bad" tribe, but such is the source material that Mann has to work with, and I think he does about as well as he could given the times and it still holds up today. That could also be an indictment on Hollywood though that one of the few movies that tries to show the complexity of Native Nations during the colonial period and stars many Native American actors came out 24 years ago...
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Apr 22, 2016 18:41
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This thread has persuaded me to rewatch Heat. Outside of the bank robbery shootout, I never particularly liked this movie, but it's been 10+ years so let's see how I feel now. Watching The Insider for the first time and rewatching L.A. Confidential reminded me that Dante Spinotti is a god.
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Apr 22, 2016 23:09
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