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LloydDobler posted:A great thing about Last of the Mohicans is that it's both a dick flick and a chick flick. Action, romance, honor, duty, defiance, freedom, betrayal, sacrifice and redemption all thrown in. I'm a grown rear end man but I absolutely lose my poo poo and have to choke back tears through the entire end sequence starting where Duncan sacrifices himself, Hawkeye mercy kills him, and then they chase down the ladies. I'm not sure if Alice was in love with Uncas or if she's just acknowledging his sacrifice, but the stone cold look of defiance on Alice's face as she backs away from Magua to join Uncas over the cliff is one of the greatest movie moments of all time. MAGUA moves on Alice. His knife is low, about to strike. She stares at him. Her eyes are like pools of deep water, calm, open, almost beatific. It stops Magua ... MAGUA inexplicably, drops his knife hand. He's riveted by her. About him, there's a glimmer of something else. He wears a human face for this one moment. He reaches out with his other hand to offer her safety. To bring her back from the edge ... ALICE looks down at Uncas, her lover, dead on the rocks below. She turns to Magua with enigmatic calm. Her eyes seem to see into him. She steps off the edge. She falls to her death next to Uncas .. I think Michael Mann, Wes Studi, and Jodhi May (who plays Alice) nail the scene. It's so perfectly shot.
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Apr 23, 2016 01:30
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It's not a movie but if anyone wants some more north-american-epic-myth-whites-and-reds-mixing-it-up action, I highly recommend reading Joseph Boyden's The Orenda, it's super beautiful and mega brutal.Uncle Boogeyman posted:This thread has persuaded me to rewatch Heat. Outside of the bank robbery shootout, I never particularly liked this movie, but it's been 10+ years so let's see how I feel now. Watching The Insider for the first time and rewatching L.A. Confidential reminded me that Dante Spinotti is a god. Heat is really good, if a little overlong. It has a funny title, since I would describe Mann's storytelling as 'cold', generally. There is always this distance from the characters, even the sympathetic ones.
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Apr 23, 2016 18:43
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I actually ended up disliking it just as much as I did the first time, if not more so. I'm gonna do a big write up when I have the time.
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Apr 23, 2016 18:44
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Like I said earlier, re-watching it after watching Thief for the first time, it's surprising how much less interesting Heat is visually, given it was 15 years later. I still love the movie, but it must be said, the first hour of Heat doesn't hold up particularly well. All the stuff with Natalie Portman is cringy as gently caress, De Niro's romance is pretty weak and only exists to setup the ending. I'd say from the shootout with William Fichtner's people onwards the movie is truly great though.
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Apr 24, 2016 03:10
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I never liked the complaints about the end of Collateral being silly and turning Jamie Foxx into an action hero or whatever. A big part of the movie seems to be about Vince pushing Max to become a man of action and not just an impotent dreamer. (People used to say it's unrealistic that Vince's last target happened to be Max's last fare, but we all figured out that they got picked up and dropped off at the same building, so it's not that big of a coincidence.) I like that Vince tried to put two in the chest and one in the head of Max, but he hit the doors instead of Max. Earlier he talked about I Ching and being able to adapt and whatever, so maybe it means he's too rigid in his own beliefs or something. Groundskeeper Silly fucked around with this message at 07:27 on May 13, 2016 |
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May 13, 2016 07:17
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Considering the time it was made (24 years ago, around the time of Dances with Wolves) and the source material, I thought Mann did a fantastic job with his portrayals. You can argue some unfortunate implications are baked into Last of the Mohicans - it's a fine line between ending on a note of "The future of Native Americans is going to be loving dire" and "Native Americans are going to ~fade away~ and it's Real Sad but whelp" for instance, and it's still centered to some extent on a white hero guy saving the whitest white women to white the place up. But holy poo poo it is so much better in retrospect than Dances With Wolves that it's ridiculous. It's not perfect, but it's still ahead of the curve in many respects. Avatar aped all the parts of Dances With Wolves that feel kinda gross now and got away with it, after all.
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May 13, 2016 15:09
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Groundskeeper Silly posted:I never liked the complaints about the end of Collateral being silly and turning Jamie Foxx into an action hero or whatever. A big part of the movie seems to be about Vince pushing Max to become a man of action and not just an impotent dreamer. I agree. I'm never understood what about his actions in those scenes says "action hero". Because he's able to pick up a gun and aim it? He's clearly shown to be tentative about it, and there's a huge difference between the way he handles the gun versus the way Vincent does. Max gets lucky at the very end, plain and simple. Like you said, its about him finally having the balls to stand up to Vincent and let the chips fall where they may. There is nothing "action hero" about the way Max holds the gun or how he randomly sprays bullets into the door. He's just backed into a corner and he's doing anything he can to survive. And he gets extremely lucky. I'd expect people to have more of a problem with Vincent's perfect foreshadowing of his own death with that "man dies on a train and nobody notices" story.
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May 13, 2016 15:22
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Groundskeeper Silly posted:I like that Vince tried to put two in the chest and one in the head of Max, but he hit the doors instead of Max. Earlier he talked about I Ching and being able to adapt and whatever, so maybe it means he's too rigid in his own beliefs or something. This is basically the theme of McCauley in Heat too, he has his rigid rule of dropping anything in 30 seconds when he feels the "heat" (movie title!) around the corner and then can't let his vengeance against Waingro go and that's what gets him killed. Basebf555 posted:I'd expect people to have more of a problem with Vincent's perfect foreshadowing of his own death with that "man dies on a train and nobody notices" story. What's more unrealistic is the thought of people using public transport in LA (the script was originally set in New York)
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May 13, 2016 18:08
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Cacator posted:What's more unrealistic is the thought of people using public transport in LA (the script was originally set in New York) I'm glad they actually set it in LA. It really worked out quite well and captured some of the LA very nicely with isolated sprawled out disconnected feeling. I don't think it'd have been nearly as good if it was set in NYC
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May 13, 2016 20:29
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:This thread has persuaded me to rewatch Heat. Outside of the bank robbery shootout, I never particularly liked this movie, but it's been 10+ years so let's see how I feel now. Watching The Insider for the first time and rewatching L.A. Confidential reminded me that Dante Spinotti is a god. Opposite for me, I've always loved and continue to love Heat, but this thread prompted me to rewatch The Insider (possibly my least favorite Mann movie) and I had the same reaction I did the first time, it's about an hour too long. I know it's a revered film but I just can't get into the third act at all. Maybe it's because I was raised in a harshly anti-smoking household but my biggest problem with it is that he has a huge revelation about big tobacco... that everybody already knows every detail about and doesn't care. Smokers smoke and non smokers don't, regardless of whatever facts exist. It's like having the smoking gun that a prominent politician is a philanderer or a high ranking priest is a pedophile. Or a rock star has an addiction. I can barely bring myself to care that Big Tobacco is threatening his family, because it's pointless. They really should just let him testify because everyone, especially smokers, know that cigarettes are addictive poison, they just don't give a gently caress. So when they have the big conflict and crisis over news integrity and putting it on the air, and then drag it out for an hour, I've already completely checked out emotionally. It's a story/subject problem for me, not a directing problem or performance problem. I even think Russell Crowe is great in this, and I usually dislike him in anything except LA Confidential. On the plus side this thread also reminded me that I've never seen Manhunter which is now sitting on my TV stand ready to watch today. LloydDobler fucked around with this message at 11:15 on May 15, 2016 |
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May 15, 2016 11:08
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The revelation wasn't that cigarettes were addictive. It was that companies were working hard to make them more addictive. And it was huge news in 1996 when it turned out they had lied under oath about their understanding of their own product. I think you're underestimating how chill society was about cigarettes before that poo poo went down.
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May 15, 2016 16:35
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And that 3rd act is probably the best part of the whole story. The notion that a corporate wing of a major news organization would shut down a story was unthinkable at the time. Insider rules.
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May 15, 2016 21:20
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It's interesting what now seems quaint from that movie.
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May 15, 2016 21:23
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In a post-Reagan post-fairness doctrine USA I can't believe anyone actually found it shocking or surprising. Hell, the idea that a corporation would try to addict you to its products was already a punch line in popular culture before the events of the movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKRFlNryaWw&t=98s On the other hand I've been cynical for a very long time now. On a more positive note, Manhunter was excellent. A bit dated at times but what else could you expect? The Blu-Ray restoration made it look really fresh, and Mann's long, lingering shots were something to savor. Nerd alert: I really enjoyed finding one continuity error due to some work history I have in the tape drive industry. At the beginning, Crawford makes a point to specifically tell Graham that they made copies of home movies for him on "Half inch video tape" which would have been either VHS or Betamax, the new standards exploding for home users at the time, but the cartridges he's watching later are still massive 3/4" relics from the 70's.
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May 16, 2016 08:11
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For some reason, I absolutely love the poo poo out of the shot in Manhunter when Graham steps into the elevator at the hotel he's staying at right before he reviews the home videos of the killing at the beginning. It's just so 80's-cool and totally Mann. Also, Will checking his voice recorder and camera in the cop car in the beginning sticks in my brain. It almost seems unnecessary to put in the film, but it's just little things like that Mann puts in his films to show that his characters are skilled at utilizing the tools of their trade. I love the old school brass check that Caan's character does in Thief.   "I am the last guy in the world that you wanna gently caress with". Edit: Photos are from IMFDB, a really awesome site for movie/firearm fanatics like myself. Mental Hospitality fucked around with this message at 07:16 on May 18, 2016 |
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May 18, 2016 07:13
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LloydDobler posted:In a post-Reagan post-fairness doctrine USA I can't believe anyone actually found it shocking or surprising. Hell, the idea that a corporation would try to addict you to its products was already a punch line in popular culture before the events of the movie. Does the Blu have any of the other cuts on it? For a time there was the DVD release that had the original cut, and then one that came with that and the Director's Cut (With some really poor quality footage), but the Anchor Bay set had the 'Theatrical Cut' that was actually a hybrid of the Theatrical and DC. It would be good to have a set that makes things a little clearer. Saying that, I think the DC of MANHUNTER is a mixed bag and honestly feels like Mann just tinkering. Some shots or moments are longer, while others feel shortened (Including the first scene in the hotel of Graham reviewing the tape of the murdered family). The only real addition comes when he meets with Chilton. This site here has a list of the changes http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=1299 however according to the comments there's at least 4 different versions of the movie out there, with two separate cuts being marketed as the 'Director's Cut'.
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May 18, 2016 13:04
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There's actually even nine! There was a VHS release in 2000 (when Hannibal came out everyone rereleased Silence/etc.) that's called the theatrical cut but has some totally different shots in it. It was also shown on WPIX and some other TV stations under the name Red Dragon. :O To me the best overall version of the movie is the director's cut Anchor Bay released later under the DiviMax line. This is basically the same as the one on the two disk limited* one Anchor Bay did earlier but is a much nicer transfer (and has a Michael Mann commentary). The Anchor Bay one is so bad because it's a "director's cut" but is treated like the laser disk original Star Wars trilogy on those sets, like the (brief but important to me) scene where he meets Chilton was clearly taken from someone's old VHS recording of a TV cut of the movie. The movie is on blu-ray now but has anyone done a comparison to know which version they went with for that *It's "limited" but don't worry they made like 50,000 copies of it and no one bought it. One cool thing about it is it comes with a "case profile" envelope with photos/bios of the major characters. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 17:45 on May 18, 2016 |
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May 18, 2016 17:42
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The Shout Factory blu ray doesn't say anything about a directors cut or two different versions, so I assume its the theatrical cut. I don't think Shout Factory would be lazy/uninformed about that kind of thing, if it were a directors cut they'd say so.
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May 18, 2016 17:57
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gently caress sake. Supposedly the only real actual theatrical cut (Aside from I guess the initial VHS) is an old Laserdisc release. Everything since then has been a hybrid cut. Also, for some crazy trivia, Mann initially wanted William Friedkin to play Lector.
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May 18, 2016 21:06
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I just saw Friedkin's Rampage and the main killer has freaky slow motion visions of himself covered in blood while a tiger stalks in the background. Not sure if it came before or after Manhunter but drat, between this and To Live And Die In LA, Friedkin was biting Mann's style for a while (or vice versa).
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May 19, 2016 05:59
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Absolutely, To Live And Die In LA is straight up a fake Mann movie. It's too bad the soundtrack is goddamn Wang Chung and not Tangerine.
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May 19, 2016 09:42
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They're also pretty good friends. Also, Petersen is fantastic in both movies. It's a shame that he didn't really have much interest in movie acting and largely did it for the money. He's that mix of (Sort of) leading man looks and scuzzy character actor.
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May 19, 2016 10:27
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DrVenkman posted:Does the Blu have any of the other cuts on it? I have no idea, I rented it from Netflix and the envelope said "Theatrical cut" but I didn't even look at the disc to notice who the publisher was or anything. I didn't notice any bad quality shots but mostly because I got sucked in to the story and I only noticed the super nice shots when they lingered or were high detail like a face close up. If anything, the cuts and editing during the final gunfight were noticeably atrocious, things like the shot going off, then a horrible time delay before the camera angle changes and the victim goes flying, or their squibs go off. I just chalked it up to 1986.
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May 19, 2016 12:31
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Absolutely, To Live And Die In LA is straight up a fake Mann movie. It's too bad the soundtrack is goddamn Wang Chung and not Tangerine. See, this is an interesting take to me because I've always maintained that To Live And Die In L.A. is the buggy prototype of all of the 80s/90s Bruckheimer-Simpsons projects . It has the same formula but was darker and buggy: - high concept, w/ good looking male lead - 3-4 action set pieces - cast interesting character actors, immediately recognizable to the audience, in supporting roles for flavor - modern pop/rock soundtrack - striking/slick visual style Really, aside from a very unconventional ending - killing the male lead in the theatrical cut - a lot of that template was used in those Bruckheimer-Simpsons films. TLADILA comes out in '85 - Flashdance in '83 - Beverly Hills Cop 1 in 84 - Top Gun in '86 -Beverly Hills Cop 2 in '87 - Days of Thunder '90 - Bad Boys & Crimson Tide both in '95 - The Rock in '96 Now, I do see flaws in my theory. Flashdance isn't an action film and it definitely gets the credit for ushering in the importance of the modern movie soundtrack (w/ a collection of pop artists) before TLADILA is released and Beverly Hills Cop also is released before it but MAYBE Bruckheimer-Simpson saw a private cut of the film while they were working on Beverly Hills Cop and admired it. Beverly Hills Cop 1 doesn't really use recognizable supporting character actors the way its sequels would and the way the subsequent productions of these producers would. Anyways, its a flawed theory but a fun one I've harbored considering its cult-like status.
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May 19, 2016 17:36
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That's a great theory, and Flashdance is really not that different from Days of Thunder or Top Gun.
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May 19, 2016 17:40
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Basebf555 posted:I agree. I'm never understood what about his actions in those scenes says "action hero". Because he's able to pick up a gun and aim it? He's clearly shown to be tentative about it, and there's a huge difference between the way he handles the gun versus the way Vincent does. It's also that Max actually adapts. He improvises. For all Vincent's talk about it, he's in a rut too. And it's exemplified by him doing the same shooting pattern he always does.
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May 21, 2016 08:57
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:That's a great theory, and Flashdance is really not that different from Days of Thunder or Top Gun. It's an interesting idea, but I think Beverly Hills Cop and then Lethal Weapon in 87 were much more influential and the blueprint being followed. This is re-iterated by the fact that Tony Scott did Beverly Hills Cop 2 and then Last Boyscout, which were obviously descendants of the former 2, and Michael Bay's whole aesthetic was ripped off from Scott, so I think that's a much cleaner through-line. Plus To Live and Die in LA is way too weird and abstract for anyone to have used it as a formula, at least until you get into more modern stuff like Drive.
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May 25, 2016 05:52
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Yeah but what I'm proposing is that they were influential on the [Bruckheimer-Simpsons] producers' recipe, not the hired guns of the producer themselves. I'm not suggesting it was a film of widespread influence, I just suspect it had a core influence on these particular producers. The other ripples are incidental at best.
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May 25, 2016 06:01
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