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HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014

Batham posted:

The average person on these forums and other anime forums might be aware of this, but to the average viewer does not. There's a reason why you see stuff like "I like animé a lot, but why does Japan make cartoons about Caucasian people?" pop up from time to time on various boards. The average human in an animé show doesn't look distinctive Asian enough, period.

Here is "distinctive Asian enough" for white people not to assume drawings of Japanese people in Japan made by other Japanese people are of white people.

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Batham
Jun 19, 2010

Cluster bombing from B-52s is very, very accurate. The bombs are guaranteed to always hit the ground.

HorseLord posted:

Here is "distinctive Asian enough" for white people not to assume drawings of Japanese people in Japan made by other Japanese people are of white people.


Throwing a tantrum isn't going to change the reality about it.

HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014
Where is the tantrum? That is literally the conception white Americans have of how to telegraph "Asian" in a drawing. Those are the big racial markers that jump out to white Americans as being characteristic of Asians, specifically Japanese.

Because Anime characters do not look like this, you assume they're white. (Because green or blue hair is unique to white genetics?)

It would do you good to find out what explicitly white characters have looked like in Anime. We're talking like, the biggest loving noses you've ever seen here.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010

Batham posted:

Throwing a tantrum isn't going to change the reality about it.

Arguing "they are not drawn specifically Asian, and are instead broad analogue more than one person can relate to" is one thing, arguing that they they're actually white people is something else.

Animated characters are never one to one with reality anyway, in terms of intent. The Simpsons have already been mentioned, but American Dad, Family Guy and even Frozen use body and face proportions that are basically impossible, and that's fine because they're symbolic representations of people.

Improbable Lobster
Jan 6, 2012

What is the Matrix 🌐? We just don't know 😎.


Buglord

Batham posted:

Throwing a tantrum isn't going to change the reality about it.

Good thing you're wrong then

HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014

Snowman_McK posted:

Arguing "they are not drawn specifically Asian, and are instead broad analogue more than one person can relate to" is one thing, arguing that they they're actually white people is something else.

Animated characters are never one to one with reality anyway, in terms of intent. The Simpsons have already been mentioned, but American Dad, Family Guy and even Frozen use body and face proportions that are basically impossible, and that's fine because they're symbolic representations of people.

No but you see until the animes are perfect photorealistic lifedrawings none of the characters can be Japanese because they don't look like them, no matter little details like living in literally tokyo. But blue haired yellowed skin people are american because of context.

hemale in pain
Jun 5, 2010




Oh my god do people really think anime characters are drawn for white people and not just stylised faces?

G-III
Mar 4, 2001

hemale in pain posted:

Oh my god do people really think anime characters are drawn for white people and not just stylised faces?

There are people who legitimately believe this. You should pity them.

HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014

hemale in pain posted:

Oh my god do people really think anime characters are drawn for white people and not just stylised faces?

Apparently!

Echo Chamber
Oct 16, 2008

best username/post combo
Paramount pretty much settled the question anyway by considering digitally altering ScarJo's face to look Asian.

People pretty have to turn a blind eye to that if they want to keep arguing that the characters couldn't have been Asian. But but but...

HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014
Maybe all the characters in this version are still written as being Japanese. That'd be really loving funny.

Maybe they could do a shot for shot of remake Boyz n the Hood starring Benedict Cumberbatch.

Batham
Jun 19, 2010

Cluster bombing from B-52s is very, very accurate. The bombs are guaranteed to always hit the ground.

Snowman_McK posted:

Arguing "they are not drawn specifically Asian, and are instead broad analogue more than one person can relate to" is one thing, arguing that they they're actually white people is something else.

Again, animé characters are broad enough to be identified as several racial groups, Caucasians being one of them. The differences that are often brought up, e.g. differences in the way the jawline are drawn, mean little to nothing to the average viewer or anyone that has ever been specifically told that information.

Tell me, without doing a google image search or anything like that, what the image below is supposed to represent along with your reasoning behind it.



Is this person a Caucasian or Asian? I can guarantee you one thing, it's not possible for the average person or child to differentiate the two for a character drawn like this.

Snowman_McK posted:

Animated characters are never one to one with reality anyway, in terms of intent. The Simpsons have already been mentioned, but American Dad, Family Guy and even Frozen use body and face proportions that are basically impossible, and that's fine because they're symbolic representations of people.

Yes, but cartoons like that play into exaggerated facial features to differentiate racial groups. The average face in an animé doesn't do this.

Batham fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Apr 18, 2016

HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014

Batham posted:

Again, animé characters are broad enough to be identified as several racial groups, Caucasians being one of them. The differences that are often brought up, e.g. differences in the way the jawline are drawn, mean little to nothing to the average viewer or anyone that has ever been specifically told that information.

The extremely stylized nature of the artwork does not incorporate racial markers, but that does not mean that the character in question has an unknown nationality.

This has been explained, several times now. The cast of Ghost in the Shell are Japanese. Marge Simpson is a white American. It is right there, in the story.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010

Batham posted:

Yes, but cartoons like that play into exaggerated facial features to differentiate racial groups. The average face in an animé doesn't do this.

Ah, yes. Like how in Frozen, Elsa has the racial marker of her eyes being a foot across, so we know she's Swedish.

Batham
Jun 19, 2010

Cluster bombing from B-52s is very, very accurate. The bombs are guaranteed to always hit the ground.

HorseLord posted:

The extremely stylized nature of the artwork does not incorporate racial markers, but that does not mean that the character in question has an unknown nationality.

This has been explained, several times now. The cast of Ghost in the Shell are Japanese. Marge Simpson is a white American. It is right there, in the story.

Again, that is mostly irrelevant for most mainstream Animé due to dubbing and that most on screen text is written in the latin alphabet. Very rarely does a spoken line or direct reference to Japan, ever come up in Animé.

Snowman_McK posted:

Ah, yes. Like how in Frozen, Elsa has the racial marker of her eyes being a foot across, so we know she's Swedish.

Not all forms of animation try to differentiate through exaggerated facial features, nor did I ever claim that they did.

HorseLord posted:

草薙 素子: I am a Japanese person from Japan. I have lived here my whole life. I work for the Japanese government.

Batham: They didn't draw any slitty eyes how can i tell

You are being really dense right now.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Batham fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Apr 18, 2016

HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014
草薙 素子: I am a Japanese person from Japan. I have lived here my whole life. I work for the Japanese government.

Batham: They didn't draw any slitty eyes how can i tell

HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014

Batham posted:

Again, that is mostly irrelevant for most mainstream Animé due to dubbing and that most on screen text is written in the latin alphabet. Very rarely does the line or direct reference to Japan ever come up in Animé.


You are being really dense right now.

First you tried to claim Anime characters aren't Japanese because they don't look like what you want Japanese people to be drawn like. Now that is defeated, you are claiming that they aren't really Japanese because English language dubs that try to remove signs of Japaneseness exist, or that in some anime series, they don't incorporate the word "Japan" into every sentence.

This is a really poor argument, because You're in the Ghost in the Shell thread. Ghost In the Shell is set in Japan. It focuses extremely heavily on Japanese political intrigue, so they talk about Japan and being in Japan all of the time. The main character, who people do not like to see whitewashed, is called Motoko Kusanagi, which is a Japanese name. There is absolutely no ambiguity in this at all, they are Japanese people doing Japanese things in Japan. There is no way to read or watch GITS without understanding, without any chance of doubt, that they're Japanese. The entire series beats you over the head with this fact from start to end.

HorseLord fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Apr 18, 2016

Davincie
Jul 7, 2008

literally everyone who isn't retarded knows that people in anime are japanese

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

Anime characters have big eyes because anime is descendent of Osamu Tezuka, who was a huge Disney fan, and classic Disney cartoons leaned heavily on large expressive eyes

If you seriously think that anime characters look like they do because they're trying to present a "homogenized, aracial image" that any (light skinned) person can relate to, rather than just being a simplified depiction of a Japanese person that is explicitly coded as Japanese due to their name, spoken language, and stated country of residence, then you are literally retarded irl and living evidence that Hitler, noted Disney otaku, was right to exterminate the lesser sbled

Guy Mann
Mar 28, 2016

by Lowtax

SlipUp posted:

I don't think casting ScarJo was racist, it is possible to reinterpret somebody else's story. It's not like the Departed was racist, or conversely it's not like Attack on Titan should have white Europeans even though they clearly are going for a European aesthetic. The cgi asian eyes though, loving lol.

Don't even get me started on Fury Road's leads not being Australian.

Clipperton
Dec 20, 2011
Grimey Drawer

HorseLord posted:

草薙 素子: I am a Japanese person from Japan. I have lived here my whole life. I work for the Japanese government.

she could be a white japanese person though

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
The other thing to remember specifically about eyes is that, in both 2d and 3d animation, they can't be 1:1 analogues to real eyes. They're the one part that needs to be a lot more expressionistic. 'realistic' eyes, like those in "Polar Express" look creepy, while massive, over the top, expressive eyes, seem more real. There's other symbolism to the eye as well. In Anime, like Ruroni Kenshin, eyes change size and colour depending on the character's relationship to killing. The titular character's eyes are very large, with purple irises, most of the time, while, when he's in killing mode, they narrow, and become red. Good characters are consistently large eyed, evil ones consistently narrowed.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN
Mamoru Oshii's live-action animes Avalon and Garm Wars star a bunch of Pollacks and Canadians, because they were made in Poland and Canada. His film Assault Girls has a Japanese cast because it was made in Japan.

Racial purity is not a big thing to fixate on.

Owlofcreamcheese
May 22, 2005
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!
Buglord
The thing that is so weird is that this story had such an easy way to make her white since she has a new body and like 99% of the themes are being alienated from your own body but then they just made everyone else white too so they can't even have that be their cover on why they had to make her white.

SHISHKABOB
Nov 30, 2012

Fun Shoe
My girlfriend and I watched a little bit of gundam wing and hahaha oh my god.

SlipUp
Sep 30, 2006


stayin c o o l

Guy Mann posted:

Don't even get me started on Fury Road's leads not being Australian.

White on white crimes goes totally unnoticed of course.

I always thought anime depicted a near unattainable Japanese ideal of beauty, which among other things include a very light skin tone. (Where this is because of a western standard of beauty who knows.)

Then of course there's the feminist angle. Try making a full movie with a bare chested female protagonist and see how that goes. Arguing she's not a person but a literal thing probably wouldn't help that very much.

At the end of the day, it's a movie based off a cartoon. It doesn't really owe the cartoon anything except money in the hands off the right people.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.

SHISHKABOB posted:

My girlfriend and I watched a little bit of gundam wing and hahaha oh my god.

It's amazingly stupid in the best way, I love it.

Hope you're watching the Dub, for the best crazy voices.

The Cameo
Jan 20, 2005


SlipUp posted:

White on white crimes goes totally unnoticed of course.

I always thought anime depicted a near unattainable Japanese ideal of beauty, which among other things include a very light skin tone. (Where this is because of a western standard of beauty who knows.)

The Japanese obsession with white skin goes back long before they were ever aware of European people. If anything it probably ties into class structures and has just carried over into modern life - a farmer would be tanned by the sun, while more noble/rich people would be able to remain indoors (especially during the devastatingly hot summers), keeping their skin light. It would also explain why so much art back then depicted purely white skin, why one of the common aspects of geisha is to paint your skin with white makeup, and so on. It's just a deep-seated part of their culture.

SlipUp
Sep 30, 2006


stayin c o o l

The Cameo posted:

The Japanese obsession with white skin goes back long before they were ever aware of European people. If anything it probably ties into class structures and has just carried over into modern life - a farmer would be tanned by the sun, while more noble/rich people would be able to remain indoors (especially during the devastatingly hot summers), keeping their skin light. It would also explain why so much art back then depicted purely white skin, why one of the common aspects of geisha is to paint your skin with white makeup, and so on. It's just a deep-seated part of their culture.

Two thumbs up for this post, thanks for this. Interesting stuff.

Inzombiac
Mar 19, 2007

PARTY ALL NIGHT

EAT BRAINS ALL DAY


This is the funniest thread in SA right now.

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

Tenzarin posted:

They also made a point that Togusa is really the odd man in the group because he has not received any cyborg augmentations and he has a wive and kid. Only other person with that kind of background is Aramaki, it makes it look like he is teaching Togusa to one day take over the team.

Actually, I always wondered about this. Togusa is explicitly said to have no cybernetic enhancements, being totally human. Aramaki is somewhat implied to be similar. However both of them are always jumping into cyber lobbies for meetings, having thought conversations with the rest of the team and going into autistic mode or whatever so they can't by cyber talked to. How the hell does Togusa keep doing these things that require at least minimal cyberization?

Also his use of a revolver is a little too on the nose.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010

Gyges posted:

Actually, I always wondered about this. Togusa is explicitly said to have no cybernetic enhancements, being totally human. Aramaki is somewhat implied to be similar. However both of them are always jumping into cyber lobbies for meetings and having thought conversations with the rest of the team. How the hell does Togusa keep doing these things that require at least minimal cyberization?

Also his use of a revolver is a little too on the nose.

Wasn't there an episode where Togusa starts doubting if he actually has that family, that they might be a layer of manipulation?

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

Snowman_McK posted:

Wasn't there an episode where Togusa starts doubting if he actually has that family, that they might be a layer of manipulation?

Probably, there's a shitload of people sitting around talking about the nature of reality so why not Togusa too?

I want to say that there was an episode where Togusa wasn't able to see the Laughing Man as he was getting away despite being the only member of the team who should have been immune to the effects of the Laughing Man.

Barudak
May 7, 2007

Gyges posted:

Actually, I always wondered about this. Togusa is explicitly said to have no cybernetic enhancements, being totally human. Aramaki is somewhat implied to be similar. However both of them are always jumping into cyber lobbies for meetings, having thought conversations with the rest of the team and going into autistic mode or whatever so they can't by cyber talked to. How the hell does Togusa keep doing these things that require at least minimal cyberization?

Also his use of a revolver is a little too on the nose.

They both have basically smartphones put in their heads, but they don't have direct ports and their physical bodies are still fully organic. In theory, if they get hacked their whole body isn't up for grabs like the rest of the team, just the add-on they use to join group-chats/surf data files which is why they're useful individuals in the division but have, theoretically, non-combat roles. He's also like, the only competent investigator on the team and the only one with a family so from a narrative perspective hes a great audience surrogate/anchor.

Edit: Plus he's gonna actually be able to retire in comfort unlike the rest of the squad in SAC since his wife's day-trade account has been taken over by the best money-making AI of all time.

MisterBibs
Jul 17, 2010

dolla dolla
bill y'all
Fun Shoe
Maybe I missed someone answering it with all the white-washing discussion, but has there been a live-action anime movie that has done reasonably well (read: drawn in audiences that would actually know the source anime from any of other anime)?

I guess I can't wrap my head around the existence of this movie on a fundamental level. From what little I half-remember, there's not a great audience for an authentic adaptation, but if you go the take-a-hose-and-rinse-off-all-the-anime route, you're going to catch hell about white-washing and cultural appropriation.

GonSmithe
Apr 25, 2010

Perhaps it's in the nature of television. Just waves in space.
The 1996 moavie was very well received.

MisterBibs
Jul 17, 2010

dolla dolla
bill y'all
Fun Shoe

MisterBibs posted:

live-action anime movie

I'm trying to find something that reasonably gauges how much of a market there is for the sort of adaptation we're discussing here.

GonSmithe
Apr 25, 2010

Perhaps it's in the nature of television. Just waves in space.
I know what you meant (I do read posts), I just meant that's how it can exist. I don't think it's a good idea, but there is a reason (besides the #1 reason).

MisterBibs
Jul 17, 2010

dolla dolla
bill y'all
Fun Shoe
Right, but I'd argue that the draw/reception (financially, first and foremost) of an anime movie and an anime-based live action movie are apples and oranges. Adapt the movie 'accurately', and you'll get the half-a-million-according-to-box-office-mojo returns. Adapt it for a broader audience, and people will kvetch over it.

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Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

the problem is that there just aren't a lot of live action anime adaptations to form a sample size from, since most anime adaptations get stuck in development hell almost immediately since every motherfucker tries to "fix" it for release.

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