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Jebediah Kerman posted:so what would transgenderism be? having a female brain when you have male sex, and male genetics, or vice versa? Or something in between? Good lord this is already confusing me. The best solution is to stop caring what gender people are and let them do what makes them happiest.
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Apr 28, 2016 21:37
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Jebediah Kerman posted:so what would transgenderism be? having a female brain when you have male sex, and male genetics, or vice versa? Or something in between? Good lord this is already confusing me. pretty much. when you as a child are concieved, ideally you get a single pair of chromosomes, either XX or XY. this does not always happen in the womb, before you are born, you start off as a female but could turn into a male if you have XY (or some similar set) of chromosomes. ideally your body will conform to a purely XX or XY standard. this does not always happen. when you are born, there is a chance that your genitals are not fully male or female. at this point, the doctor has the ability to declare that you are male or female before you as an individual even have an identity. ideally they will make a correct decision, but this does not always happen when you are a child, you start to understand boys, girls, and the difference between them. this is entirely dependent on your parents, your family, and the society in which you live. your own self-image and identity however are largely controlled by various features of your brain which can vary and in turn drive your interests and capabilities. ideally your gender self-identity is largely in tune with what everyone who controls your life wants it to be, but this does not always happen when you hit puberty, a whole bunch of hormones go flooding around your body making you crazy and developing your secondary sex characteristics. all kinds of nutty things happen to your body at this time. what if you're a boy and you start growing breasts? what if you're a girl and you start growing thick facial hair? ideally none of this happens to you and you go through puberty largely as expected, but this does not always happen you don't just flip a switch in the body and get male or female, sexual differentiation is a stupidly complex process that takes years to play out and it often breaks down in one way or another to produce some atypical result, causing an androgynous or intersex or trans person. which is why it's important to accept individual people as individuals and not expect them to conform to some broad standard (which is made up anyway) of what a person should be, because it's usually none of your business what some random person is or claims to be until they make it your business, in short Reik posted:The best solution is to stop caring what gender people are and let them do what makes them happiest.
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Apr 28, 2016 21:40
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Reik posted:The best solution is to stop caring what gender people are and let them do what makes them happiest. But then how do I know who to gently caress? I'm not earnest here, just taking the argument to the part we haven't been talking about yet is the actual thought process behind why many people care
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Apr 28, 2016 21:53
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Jebediah Kerman posted:I've heard a few times that transgenderism is a mental disorder, is there any truth to this? From what I've read, technically yes. However, I think its more accurate to say that things like transgenderism (gender dysphoria) are the psychological effects that someone suffers from as a result of having a different gender identity than the one your outward appearance shows. Effects such as: despair, depression, anxiety, etc. Those are the mental illnesses discussed. edit: poo poo, beaten.
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Apr 28, 2016 21:59
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Popular Thug Drink posted:(words) Okay, so someone's body may not conform to a purely male or female standard, that's fine. They could be intersex, and have other characteristics that can make them go either way or both. But as far as gender identity goes, I'm not against how people want to identify themselves, that's up to them. But if for example someone was born male and they identify as female, and I know this, then I would just think of them as a man anyway. Out of respect for the person I would still refer to them as a female though aloud.
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Apr 28, 2016 22:01
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Jebediah Kerman posted:Okay, so someone's body may not conform to a purely male or female standard, that's fine. They could be intersex, and have other characteristics that can make them go either way or both. So you're just too cowardly to say how you really feel, is all.
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Apr 28, 2016 22:03
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Who What Now posted:So you're just too cowardly to say how you really feel, is all. the racist tree
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Apr 28, 2016 22:03
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Jebediah Kerman posted:But as far as gender identity goes, I'm not against how people want to identify themselves, that's up to them. But if for example someone was born male and they identify as female, and I know this, then I would just think of them as a man anyway. Out of respect for the person I would still refer to them as a female though aloud. well you're appearing to respect that person in public but internally you're disrespecting them by beliving you know them better than they know themselves. that's ok though, nobody can make you think kindly about people if you don't want to, so long as you just play along that's all society demands of you anyways people do this all the time. i might agree with someone and not call them names while internally thinking they are really stupid. so long as you're being polite that's all you really have to do  Who What Now posted:So you're just too cowardly to say how you really feel, is all. eh human social relationships are built on little lies. i would rather that than someone going around declaring who is male and who isn't boner confessor fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 22:04
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Jebediah Kerman posted:Okay, so someone's body may not conform to a purely male or female standard, that's fine. They could be intersex, and have other characteristics that can make them go either way or both. If someone is mentally and genetically a woman, but was born with a penis and forced to live as a boy by her parents her whole life, you would still call her a man?
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Apr 28, 2016 22:06
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Volkerball posted:the racist tree True, pretending to respect someone while not actually respecting them is better than nothing.
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Apr 28, 2016 22:09
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Who What Now posted:So you're just too cowardly to say how you really feel, is all. It's either that or outright tell them that I think they're a man anyway and cause a scene. Also, I know a transgender. I've always called him a her cause I thought he was really a woman (this is someone I knew online), so I still call him a her still just cause. If he ends up asking about my opinion on gender identity I'd be happy to let them know
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Apr 28, 2016 22:10
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Jebediah Kerman posted:It's either that or outright tell them that I think they're a man anyway and cause a scene. Problematic I'm teasing, but entertained by the use of "a transgender" as well as that you've used every pronoun for the same person
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Apr 28, 2016 22:11
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Jebediah Kerman posted:It's either that or outright tell them that I think they're a man anyway and cause a scene. Because of course you have a
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Apr 28, 2016 22:11
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Yes of course, I knew this was coming, paint me as a bigot. As I said, I have no problem with how people want to identify themselves. The way people identify themselves won't change my opinion on gender identity though. It's my opinion, which could perhaps be changed.
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Apr 28, 2016 22:31
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Jebediah Kerman posted:Yes of course, I knew this was coming, paint me as a bigot. As I said, I have no problem with how people want to identify themselves. The way people identify themselves won't change my opinion on gender identity though. It's my opinion, which could perhaps be changed.
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Apr 28, 2016 22:42
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twodot posted:So I don't really care what gender you think people are internally, so long as externally you treat them as they want. What's curious to me is you felt the need to tell us this little fact about yourself, knew it would be poorly received, and did it anyways, despite it being totally irrelevant and unknowable so long as you kept up your external façade. Why do that? That's where the conversation was led to edit: and I knew it would be poorly received, I already knew every post I would make ITT would be unpopular. But I'm posting my opinions anyway.
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Apr 28, 2016 22:48
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i dont think anyone cares if you change your opinion or not, as long as you understand your opinion is wrong
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Apr 28, 2016 22:49
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I've pondered too whether it's a psychological thing or a neurological thing. I guess the main thing is that people in early childhood tend not to have psychological problems. You don't see depression, schizophrenia, etc. You do see things like autism. Also. I find it weird that the anatomical configuration of a person at birth is such a thing in perception. You're really saying that you could know a girl for years, have no idea, treat her like any other woman, and then just finding out that one detail of her history would entirely change your perception of her. I don't doubt btw that you'd think that - I just find it odd that we privilege the genitalia - which we almost never see other people's, as such a fundamental part of identity.
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Apr 28, 2016 22:49
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Jebediah Kerman posted:That's where the conversation was led to edit: Like when someone says their preferred pronoun is "this one", I'll say "nope, not going to do that", and maybe they think I'm a bigot, but at least I'm setting expectations. You're opening the door for people to call you a bigot, when your belief has no bearing on your behavior. twodot fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 22:56
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i dont think anyone cares if you change your opinion or not, as long as you understand your opinion is wrong I think my opinion is in the right. I'm still rather uneducated about gender identity though, I kind of think it's a bunch of hogwash. sidviscous posted:You're really saying that you could know a girl for years, have no idea, treat her like any other woman, and then just finding out that one detail of her history would entirely change your perception of her. I don't think my perception of her would *entirely* change, I would just recognize her as a man if it turns out she was one.
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Apr 28, 2016 23:00
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This conversation is pretty much on what constitutes being 'a man' or 'a woman'. If you define that as 'whatever the doctor wrote in your birth certificate based on the external appearance of your genitalia, and that's immutable, then well yeah. There's not much further to go from there is there
DeathMuffin fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 23:04
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Jebediah Kerman posted:I think my opinion is in the right. I'm still rather uneducated about gender identity though, I kind of think it's a bunch of hogwash you have every right to think that, but you have no real reason to aside from a personal bias and unwillingness to learn
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Apr 28, 2016 23:15
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Jebediah Kerman posted:I think my opinion is in the right. I'm still rather uneducated about gender identity though, I kind of think it's a bunch of hogwash. Have you considered asking your trans friend about it? Would you even care what they had to say about it? Edit: Jebediah Kerman posted:That's where the conversation was led to Sounds like your just trolling for an excuse to feel persecuted, then.
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Apr 28, 2016 23:21
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Jebediah Kerman posted:no need to complicate things, most people are male or female, with a few intersex folks. That's all the definition that's necessary. It's not complicating things, it's a basic fact.
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Apr 28, 2016 23:38
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Who What Now posted:Sounds like your just trolling for an excuse to feel persecuted, then. Nah, I just wanted to chime in Edit: Who What Now posted:Have you considered asking your trans friend about it? Would you even care what they had to say about it? I hadn't thought of that, I would care about what they'd think, I'm curious about this whole thing, in a way. Edit 2: Popular Thug Drink posted:unwillingness to learn I wouldn't mind learning about the issue, despite thinking gender identity is hogwash. I would like to learn about the issue so I can argue against it better. Jebediah Kerman fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Apr 29, 2016 |
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Apr 29, 2016 02:53
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There's no evidence for saying that it's necessarily genetic, and something not being genetic does not necessarily make it 'unreal'. However politically inconvenient it is for you, and however much you may want there to be such a basis, for use against the people who made that video, there is not, and you're going to have to deal with that.Ytlaya posted:Not sure if you're aware of this, but the brain is an actual physical organ that is a part of your body. There are a number of difference between the brains of the average male and female person.
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Apr 29, 2016 03:00
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Jebediah Kerman posted:I wouldn't mind learning about the issue, despite thinking gender identity is hogwash. I would like to learn about the issue so I can argue against it better. if you want to effectively argue against trans rights and gender identity then my advice is to learn as little as possible
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Apr 29, 2016 03:23
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Jebediah Kerman posted:It's either that or outright tell them that I think they're a man anyway and cause a scene. this is basically like saying "i have a black friend. i don't call them a friend of the family to their face, but they're a friend of the family. if he asks me what i think about black people, i'd be happy to tell him my thoughts re: niggers vs black people" that is what you are saying here. you're saying that you pretend not to be a piece of poo poo to your friend, but you're still secretly a piece of poo poo. ruminate on that for a bit. also "transgender" isn't a noun you idiot
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Apr 29, 2016 04:07
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Nevvy Z posted:If someone is mentally and genetically a woman, This requires you to think that "mentally a woman" is an actual thing. But gender isn't determined by biology. And mental traits don't split along any obvious binary. So, what's left of the definition? I'm not convinced that genders exist in any objective kind of way. Instead, "he's a man" is just a short-hand way of making a bunch of related claims like, "perceives him as male" or "he experiences dissonance if you call him anything other than male." From there, you've got a philosophical point that's technically-correct, but likely to upset a whole bunch of people. So, it seems perfectly reasonable to not bring up the point around people who aren't interested in the debate. falcon2424 fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Apr 29, 2016 |
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Apr 29, 2016 04:39
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Literally The Worst posted:this is basically like saying "i have a black friend. i don't call them a friend of the family to their face, but they're a friend of the family. if he asks me what i think about black people, i'd be happy to tell him my thoughts re: niggers vs black people" that analogy doesn't even work, racism has nothing to do with transgenderism
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Apr 29, 2016 04:46
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Jebediah Kerman posted:that analogy doesn't even work, racism has nothing to do with transgenderism Man just accept that you don't understand it and that's fine. You don't have to get it. Try not to be cunterino.
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Apr 29, 2016 04:55
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Jebediah Kerman posted:that analogy doesn't even work, racism has nothing to do with transgenderism this is true, but racism is more or less viewing a human as less than a human which you've kind of admitted is what you do with your trans friend
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Apr 29, 2016 05:32
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Popular Thug Drink posted:this is true, but racism is more or less viewing a human as less than a human which you've kind of admitted is what you do with your trans friend Not at all, I just don't recognize him as female. that's not thinking less of him. I'm just as much of his friend as I've always been.
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Apr 29, 2016 05:55
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Jebediah Kerman posted:Not at all, I just don't recognize him as female. that's not thinking less of him. I'm just as much of his friend as I've always been. Did you even read Popular Thug Drink's post earlier on this page? This one: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3772717&perpage=40&pagenumber=8#post459273867 He fully explains all this stuff that you claim to "not understand" (primarily about sexual differentiation not being as clean cut as you and many others seem to believe). Either explain why you think he's wrong, or admit that you're just sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring what he said. Also keep in mind that you're not defending the status quo here; the consensus among professionals/scientists in related fields is that gender dysphoria is a legitimate thing. It makes some sense for people to thoughtlessly accept the consensus of experts (since we kind of have to do this), but you're thoughtlessly believing something that doesn't have any support other than the "gut feeling" of a bunch of dumbass laypeople. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Apr 29, 2016 |
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Apr 29, 2016 06:25
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Jebediah Kerman posted:Not at all, I just don't recognize him as female. that's not thinking less of him. I'm just as much of his friend as I've always been. You should probably tell her that so she doesn't have to live under the false belief that you think her identity is valid. Basically if you don't, you're a poo poo friend, and a lovely human being. [real talk: it'll never happen anyway because your trans friend doesn't exist and you're a lovely troll] DeathMuffin fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Apr 29, 2016 |
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Apr 29, 2016 06:58
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Man if you find yourself saying "I'm uneducated about $topic but I think.." maybe you should just shut up because nothing that comes after that could possibly be of any value to anyone in the universe.
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Apr 29, 2016 06:58
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Obdicut posted:People arguing about gender and genetics ought to read Brain Storm. See also Delusions of Gender, which breaks down, study by study, why just about every bit of "men are like this, but women are like this" research is total bullshit.
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Apr 29, 2016 11:33
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falcon2424 posted:This requires you to think that "mentally a woman" is an actual thing. All I meant was that her brain thinks her body should be female. IE gender dysphoria. Because someone can also be genetically female, born with male parts, and go through life with no dysphoria whatsoever. Right?
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Apr 29, 2016 12:21
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Jebediah Kerman posted:Not at all, I just don't recognize him as female. that's not thinking less of him. I'm just as much of his friend as I've always been. Here's the thing, you are thinking less of her. You're expressly thinking that she is too stupid to know what she's talking about when she tells you that she's a woman, or that she is deluded, or that she is lying. And rather than actually taking ten minutes to, you know, ask her about it you just happily wallow in your own ignorance. You aren't her friend, you're just an rear end in a top hat pretending to be.
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Apr 29, 2016 12:37
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Brass Key posted:See also Delusions of Gender, which breaks down, study by study, why just about every bit of "men are like this, but women are like this" research is total bullshit. Thanks, I hadn't seen that one before.
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Apr 29, 2016 12:52
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