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Popular Thug Drink posted:pretty much. when you as a child are concieved, ideally you get a single pair of chromosomes, either XX or XY. this does not always happen Do you have any data as to how often a fully XX or XY person transitions as opposed to an individual with a chromosomal basis for their gender dysphoria? Or do transitioned\transitioning people always seem to have an accompanying chromosomal abnormality (which would be my assumption).
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Apr 29, 2016 14:10
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Jebediah Kerman posted:I wouldn't mind learning about the issue, despite thinking gender identity is hogwash. I would like to learn about the issue so I can argue against it better. You have a very strong opinion on something you don't know much about. You'd like to learn more about this, not to challenge or inform your own opinion, but to get more arguments against people who hold opinions different than the one you've preconcieved before gathering more information. That's a strange way to go about things.
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Apr 29, 2016 14:53
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Jebediah Kerman posted:Not at all, I just don't recognize him as female. that's not thinking less of him. I'm just as much of his friend as I've always been. you're a bad friend
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Apr 29, 2016 16:11
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Secular Humanist posted:Do you have any data as to how often a fully XX or XY person transitions as opposed to an individual with a chromosomal basis for their gender dysphoria? Or do transitioned\transitioning people always seem to have an accompanying chromosomal abnormality (which would be my assumption). no, i was only using atypical chromosomes as an example of how a person might not be born 'male' or 'female' from a strictly biological standpoint. i'd guess that the majority of transpersons do not have abnormal chromosomes
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Apr 29, 2016 16:14
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Literally The Worst posted:this is basically like saying "i have a black friend. i don't call them a friend of the family to their face, but they're a friend of the family. if he asks me what i think about black people, i'd be happy to tell him my thoughts re: niggers vs black people" Until we invent telepathy the only thing that matters are words and action that are visible to rest of the world. The realm of ethics ends where my skull begins because my tougths can`t hurt you or help you. I may be obligated to treat you the way you want to be treated but not to think about you the way you want to be tougth about.
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Apr 30, 2016 13:49
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idk if gender is necessarily tied to genitals but I believe it's tied to the Phallus, symbolically speaking
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Apr 30, 2016 17:07
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Baudolino posted:Until we invent telepathy the only thing that matters are words and action that are visible to rest of the world. The realm of ethics ends where my skull begins because my tougths can`t hurt you or help you. I may be obligated to treat you the way you want to be treated but not to think about you the way you want to be tougth about. yeah sure but when you admit to those secret thoughts on the internet we are still allowed to call you an rear end in a top hat.
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Apr 30, 2016 18:55
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Defending your right to have an opinion rather than the opinion itself is the last recourse of the desperate.
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Apr 30, 2016 18:58
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Brass Key posted:See also Delusions of Gender, which breaks down, study by study, why just about every bit of "men are like this, but women are like this" research is total bullshit. Yep. That's why I think transgenderism is purely a psychological thing, not biological. There is no "gender identity"; brains are just brains. You are a man if you are a biologically male human being; you are a woman if you are a biologically female human being. That's what it means to be a man or a woman. And since there is no gender identity in the brain, what does it mean to be transgender? What does it mean for a trans woman to "identify" as a woman? Where did their identity come from? Cis women's identity as women comes from the simple fact that they were born female and grew up as female-bodied people. They don't have to fake it. I think trans women (and I say this as a trans woman myself) are just adopting the superficial socio-cultural trappings of womanhood (whatever that is) but I actually think cis women are just humoring us. Blue Star fucked around with this message at 02:09 on May 1, 2016 |
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May 1, 2016 02:07
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No, if you're biologically male or female you are biologically male or female, whether you are a man or a woman is entirely separate from that though it often correlates, and this is not a belief even remotely unique to people with a grounding in trans theory.
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May 1, 2016 03:31
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Baudolino posted:The realm of ethics ends where my skull begins because my tougths can`t hurt you or help you. on the other hand, reality
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May 1, 2016 03:45
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no you see it doesn't matter that i think black people are subhumans made from clay and magical fire, as long as i pretend to respect them to their face its cool as hell, because thoughts don't actually matter
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May 1, 2016 03:45
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OwlFancier posted:No, if you're biologically male or female you are biologically male or female, whether you are a man or a woman is entirely separate from that though it often correlates, and this is not a belief even remotely unique to people with a grounding in trans theory. If being a man or a woman is not connected to biology (chromosomes, hormones, sex characteristics), and it's not connected to gender roles (men as breadwinners, women as housewives, etc.), then what does it mean to be a man or a woman? Nobody has a straight answer. It's not due to some innate congenital "brain gender", since that's been pretty much debunked. It's not due to social roles, since everyone agrees those are restrictive and artificial. So what is it? What makes some a man or a woman?
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May 1, 2016 05:19
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Is the question "what causes it" or "what should cause it"? The first is an open question, without a strong scientific conclusion. Everyone has their own ideas, I have mine, others have theirs. The second is your decision alone. Is an identity even necessary? If so, why? If not, how?
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May 1, 2016 05:45
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Literally The Worst posted:no you see it doesn't matter that i think black people are subhumans made from clay and magical fire, as long as i pretend to respect them to their face its cool as hell, because thoughts don't actually matter yes
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May 1, 2016 05:51
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RE the OP's original question - given there is a >95% overlap between gender and genitals, and has been in pretty much every society since history began, I feel there may be some kind of small relationship between the two.
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May 1, 2016 08:42
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Blue Star posted:It's not due to social roles, since everyone agrees those are restrictive and artificial. So what is it? What makes some a man or a woman? It's like money, or laws, or contracts. Everyone knows that those only exist because everyone else believes they exist. Everyone knows that even though they're thoroughly social creations they manage to cause actual real poo poo for people sometimes. Everyone knows that if everyone overnight stopped believing in the value of a certain banknote then it would stop having any value, or if they had a war and nobody showed up then we could all have a big drum circle or whatever, and yet we also know that that's not something likely to happen, because social constructs hold a lot of power in a social species.
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May 1, 2016 11:36
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LibertyCat posted:RE the OP's original question - given there is a >95% overlap between gender and genitals, and has been in pretty much every society since history began, I feel there may be some kind of small relationship between the two. on the other hand, correlation is not causation
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May 1, 2016 14:20
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Blue Star posted:If being a man or a woman is not connected to biology (chromosomes, hormones, sex characteristics), and it's not connected to gender roles (men as breadwinners, women as housewives, etc.), then what does it mean to be a man or a woman? Nobody has a straight answer. It's not due to some innate congenital "brain gender", since that's been pretty much debunked. It's not due to social roles, since everyone agrees those are restrictive and artificial. So what is it? What makes some a man or a woman? I don't believe you're actually trans. You come into the trans thread all the time to troll and then go "it's ok I'm trans". Being trans comes from the overwhelming feeling that your body isn't yours. If you were trans, you'd have felt that and you'd know that even if you can't define where it comes from it's definitely something innate to you. If the medical community didn't agree, then hormone replacement and gender confirmation surgery wouldn't be the widely accepted treatment for dysphoria. Cis people have a mind and body that are in agreement that their birth sex is correct. Trans people's minds cannot accept the sex of the body they were born in to the point that it causes immense distress and sometimes even suicidal behavior. Nobody knows what causes this today, so you're just going down a disingenuous hole to try to argue that a gap in clinical knowledge means genital essentialism must be the only answer.
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May 1, 2016 17:56
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:I don't believe you're actually trans. You come into the trans thread all the time to troll and then go "it's ok I'm trans". Being trans comes from the overwhelming feeling that your body isn't yours. If you were trans, you'd have felt that and you'd know that even if you can't define where it comes from it's definitely something innate to you. If the medical community didn't agree, then hormone replacement and gender confirmation surgery wouldn't be the widely accepted treatment for dysphoria. You guys sure like to accuse people of not being really trans when they say things you don't like, huh? I'm not going to doxx myself just to make you happy. I identify as trans because I've felt my body is "wrong" and I'm happier when people use female pronouns for me. But where do these come from? It'd be convenient to think that this is something innate, like some sort of true gender identity that is rooted in the brain or in our genes, because that might make it more "real". But if it's something that develops over time, that would point to a more psychological origin. Maybe it's different for early transitioners versus late transitioners.
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May 1, 2016 18:06
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Blue Star posted:If being a man or a woman is not connected to biology (chromosomes, hormones, sex characteristics), and it's not connected to gender roles (men as breadwinners, women as housewives, etc.), then what does it mean to be a man or a woman? Nobody has a straight answer. It's not due to some innate congenital "brain gender", since that's been pretty much debunked. It's not due to social roles, since everyone agrees those are restrictive and artificial. So what is it? What makes some a man or a woman? It means whatever it means to the individual. You do not require a consistent cause, or even any cause, to understand that gender exists, in some form, and affects human behavior. Sometimes it affects it in ways which are very deleterious to individuals. All you are required to do is be aware of that and try to offset the damage it causes to the best of your human ability.
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May 1, 2016 18:31
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Blue Star posted:You guys sure like to accuse people of not being really trans when they say things you don't like, huh? I'm not going to doxx myself just to make you happy. I identify as trans because I've felt my body is "wrong" and I'm happier when people use female pronouns for me. But where do these come from? It'd be convenient to think that this is something innate, like some sort of true gender identity that is rooted in the brain or in our genes, because that might make it more "real". But if it's something that develops over time, that would point to a more psychological origin. Maybe it's different for early transitioners versus late transitioners. Lots of gay people slowly realize they're gay over time too. Do you think sexual orientation isn't innate either? A trans person "slowly becoming trans" as you say is simply a person struggling to fit into the identity society has assigned them until they finally figure out why they've been miserable all this time. Maybe I shouldn't have gone all "no true trans scotsman" on you, but it's really frustrating to see such ignorant posting justified with "as a trans person myself, here's a really bad opinion about transpeople".
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May 1, 2016 18:31
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Blue Star posted:You are a man if you are a biologically male human being; you are a woman if you are a biologically female human being. That's what it means to be a man or a woman. Do you actually believe this? I really think that this is the crux of what all this trans-crap comes down to.
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May 1, 2016 19:26
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Blue Star posted:You guys sure like to accuse people of not being really trans when they say things you don't like, huh? I'm not going to doxx myself just to make you happy. I identify as trans because I've felt my body is "wrong" and I'm happier when people use female pronouns for me. But where do these come from? It'd be convenient to think that this is something innate, like some sort of true gender identity that is rooted in the brain or in our genes, because that might make it more "real". But if it's something that develops over time, that would point to a more psychological origin. Maybe it's different for early transitioners versus late transitioners. It's possible that there are variations among people that eventually identify as trans but the children who identify early, the feelings people like LeftistMuslimObama describe and the evidence on the subject all point to gender being something that is innate to an important degree. Wikipedia Gender Identiy posted:A well-known example in the nature verses nurture debate is the case of David Reimer, otherwise known as "John/Joan". As a baby, Reimer went through a faulty circumcision, losing his male genitalia. Psychologist John Money convinced Reimer’s parents to raise him as a girl. Reimer grew up as a girl, dressing in girl clothes and surrounded by girl toys, but did not feel like a girl. After he tried to commit suicide at age 13, he was told that he had been born with male genitalia, which he underwent surgery to reconstruct.[24] This went against Money’s hypothesis that biology had nothing to do with gender identity or human sexual orientation.[25] http://kuow.org/post/when-do-kids-know-they-re-transgender-younger-youd-think quote:How can you tell if a child is really transgender? quote:How early might a child express gender identity out loud?
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May 1, 2016 19:28
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Popular Thug Drink posted:I' 'd guess that the majority of transpersons do not have abnormal chromosomes Something like 1/150 or something pregnancies result in 45 or 47 chromosomes, 45 is usually non-viable but 47,XXY (Extra 47th X) I've read is somewhere around 1/1000 males have. XXY men tend to be 3 inches or more taller than their parents and 'grow' faster but have higher risk of learning disabilities There's also XXX females, also about 1/1000 chance, also mature faster but tend to have language disabilities. You can even have a mix of 46 and 47 pairs (mosaic). Not at all saying any of this has anything to do with being transanything, never seen anything specific about it causing gender issues/dysmorphia (There is a specific XXY called Klinefeller syndrome which tends to result in less muscle development, small breast growth and low sex drive) just saying having something other than what people think of as normal XX/XY while technically abnormal is not extremely rare, somewhere around 5-10 of births in the U.S. every minute have some form of one of the 47 extra chromosomes and many never even know unless they get their genes examined. It can result in some disability but it's not a certainty or it's not severe enough to impact their lives significantly. Genetics is just loving weird.
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May 1, 2016 23:48
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Yes, OP, I'd say genitals have quite a bit to do with gender.
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May 2, 2016 00:35
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Here is a good idea of what psychologists currently think about the state of affairs. To answer the thread title: yes, and the brain is the intermediary.
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May 2, 2016 02:30
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People act like this is some tired argument but I've never once heard even a minimally plausible account of how gender can simultaneously be constructed, performed, and imposed upon specific bodies while gender identity remains fixed, immutable, and incompatible with specific bodies. Most of the time I feel like I'd rather just disregard Butler than attempt to handle the cognitive dissonance of juggling this weird Cartesian predicament of the experience of gender dysphoria set against the distinction-without-difference model of gender as formulated by the po-mo krew.
Woozy fucked around with this message at 06:38 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 06:35
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No one is really 100% expert on the way the human brain works and the best way to understand it is to accept it's reality from those who experience it.
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May 2, 2016 14:25
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Nevvy Z posted:No one is really 100% expert on the way the human brain works and the best way to understand it is to accept it's reality from those who experience it. That requires treating trans people like, well, people and not brain-damaged degenerates, which is unfortunately hard for some people to do.
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May 2, 2016 14:41
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Woozy posted:People act like this is some tired argument but I've never once heard even a minimally plausible account of how gender can simultaneously be constructed, performed, and imposed upon specific bodies while gender identity remains fixed, immutable, and incompatible with specific bodies. Most of the time I feel like I'd rather just disregard Butler than attempt to handle the cognitive dissonance of juggling this weird Cartesian predicament of the experience of gender dysphoria set against the distinction-without-difference model of gender as formulated by the po-mo krew. I would like to reiterate this in a different way. In one square, we have the notion that gender norms are arbitrary, and that women ought to engage and perform what used to be considered men-only things. If we take any one trait and plot the expression of that trait in sample populations of men and women, we'll see a pretty big overlap, meaning that there is more variance within genders than between them. My present conception of the spectrum of masculinity versus femininity boils down, by analogy, to strength versus agility, or the rigid versus the fluid, the discrete explicit truths of the sciences and the fuzzy truths of literature. But like, is that a valid sense of gender? How do we reconcile gender nonconformity with gender transition? Does it, at its core, boil down to socio-sexual roles, while the arts and interests and styles of expression typically associated with one end of the spectrum or the other, are just superficial fluff that happens to correlate with gender identity? Is the realm of sexuality where gender identity begins and ends? e: medscape article posted:As interest in gender identity grows and further research into genetic, hormonal, and environmental factors that affect gender identity is undertaken, a better definition of what exactly makes a person male or female (or both, or neither) hopefully will be found. Increasingly apparent is the fact that greater information about gender identity as an integral part of personality serves only to help in understanding the human condition as a whole. Unusual variations have been described for centuries. Findings and observations over the past 50 years have allowed these variations to be more properly identified. In time, perhaps all the tangible elements of gender development will be known, and all variations, usual and unusual alike, will be comprehended fully. Oh okay, so we're still figuring it out. Stinky_Pete fucked around with this message at 17:51 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 17:46
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Stinky_Pete posted:Oh okay, so we're still figuring it out. I would hope everyone agrees on this point.
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May 2, 2016 19:13
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Stinky_Pete posted:I would like to reiterate this in a different way. Gender norms are arbitrary, thus anyone should be able to be whatever gender they want to be, or not be a gender, or whatever.
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May 2, 2016 19:20
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Nevvy Z posted:No one is really 100% expert on the way the human brain works and the best way to understand it is to accept it's reality from those who experience it. Subjective experience and perception is completely in line with objective reality and should not be questioned, you heard it here first folks.
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May 2, 2016 21:38
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Lichy posted:Subjective experience and perception is completely in line with objective reality and should not be questioned, you heard it here first folks. we don't objectively know how the brain works or how gender is rooted in the mind, unlike how we know objectively that you are a lovely poster who should feel shame for posting badly
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May 2, 2016 21:45
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Subjective expressions can be said to objectively exist (by what common standards constitutes objective existence). For example, it is objectively true that I like the taste of chocolate ice cream. With a transgender individual, it can be objectively true that they can feel uncomfortable in the body they are born in.
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May 3, 2016 13:09
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It's almost as if it's possible to use the term with varying definition based on whether or not the context is medical when referring to a cock or clam, or societal when referring to masculine, femine, or other, classifications. To that regard, both camps are right. Sulphuric Asshole fucked around with this message at 15:02 on May 3, 2016 |
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May 3, 2016 14:59
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It isn't that hard to explain how gender roles could be arbitrary/determined by society and people could also inherently identify as a particular gender. What likely happens is a person has some innate idea of what biological sex they identify with and then their views on gender roles are informed by society just like with any other person. So, for example, a transwoman does not inherently like dresses or the color pink. Instead, she simply identifies as a woman and then society informs her that these are things that women should like. The only thing that is inherent is the feeling that, on a at least a psychological level, the person should be a particular sex. edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case. I'm just saying that it is one easy way to explain how both of these ideas could be true.
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May 3, 2016 20:01
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What I am (or was, it's hard to untangle at this juncture) trying to understand is when someone is transgender but not transsexual. Considering that most or all elements of cultural gender roles are arbitrary and neither necessary nor sufficient to ascribe a particular gender, it doesn't seem to be an inclusive explanation to predicate the formation of identity entirely on what sex the person identifies with. I should note that understanding should not be requisite for acceptance of someone's identity, since it's easy to take that the wrong way. I just want to have a solid grasp on what it means to be transgender but not transsexual, so that I can explain it to others on their own terms in the future. Stinky_Pete fucked around with this message at 20:56 on May 3, 2016 |
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May 3, 2016 20:51
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Stinky_Pete posted:What I am (or was, it's hard to untangle at this juncture) trying to understand is when someone is transgender but not transsexual. Do you mean like trans women who choose not to have their genitals operated on? Transexual is a vague term and has fallen out of favor for basically the ambiguity you describe. A person can have gender-related dysphoria with their body, but find other sex-related aspects more distressing than their genitals. Perhaps the absence of breasts or the presence of lots of body hair distress a trans woman more than her genitalia. Perhaps a trans man's small frame or lack of beard is more disturbing to him than his possession of a vagina. If you use a purely genital-based definition of sex, these people are not transsexual, but they are clearly experiencing bodily dysphoria related to physical characteristics of gender. This is why the community has moved toward "transgendered" or even just generically "trans" over "transsexual", and why there is this argument about whether genitals dictate gender. The argument is simply that one can identify as a gender, present and live as that gender, and experience psychological pain from their opposite-gendered features while still being perfectly happy with their genitalia, and that following from that we should not identify people's genders by their genitals because for basically all purposes other than sex-having they aren't relevant to anyone other than the person themselves. It literally shouldn't matter one way or the other to anyone except my sexual partner which parts I have, from which it necessarily follows that my sexual organs are not the primary factor constituting my gender.
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May 3, 2016 21:00
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