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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > [please be serious] Does gender have -anything- to do with gentials at ALL?
 
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NathanScottPhillips
Jul 23, 2009

OwlFancier posted:

Hormones as a dictator of human behaviour is infinitely less interesting and worth discussing than simply the end behaviours themselves.

Start from what a person feels and what affects their mental wellbeing and work backwards. An obsession with the physical bases for such behaviors and feelings is almost invariably an attempt to delegitimize them.

McAlister posted:

Hell, we are a species that commits suicide. Our capacity for emotional pain is such that we occasionally choose to voluntarily end our lives to stop feeling horrible.

A little cosmetic surgery ain't nothing compared to killing yourself.

This is a very, very interesting set of posts to appear. The first claims that "an obsession for physical basis for such bahaviors and feelings" is a immoral pursuit. The second flippantly mentions suicide in the same breath as a sex change procedure as if they are on the same spectrum.

I think this is very interesting; if you do not want to address the physical basis for mental health problems, then you are basically telling people who have suicidal thoughts "go ahead, do it. That's what you feel is best, right. I support your decision, you are brave." Is this seriously where the argument is going?

Personally, I feel that in 20 years, maybe sooner, when neuroscience has progressed to the point where it can pinpoint the reasons why people need sex changes it will be treatable with medication or therapy, just like depression is now. This period of surgery and hormone supplements will be looked back on in the same light we look back on lobotomies.

* # ¿ Apr 19, 2016 23:51
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# ¿ May 22, 2024 10:28
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NathanScottPhillips
Jul 23, 2009

Popular Thug Drink posted:

why is surgery haram? you're not putting forth any logical or rational reasons to leave surgery off the list of potential treatments
I think most medical professionals agree 9 times out of 10 that surgery and body modification should be the absolute last resort, especially if therapy or medicine work. There are all sorts of reasons why therapy and drugs should be pursued instead, from the upheaval in a patient's personal or work life, potential for something to go wrong under the knife, regretting the decision, and just plain monetary cost, to name a few.

Guavanaut posted:

In a vacuum it would not be an immoral pursuit. In the current atmosphere searching for physiological bases for gender roles often comes with an agenda. It's like a lot of the 'gay gene' research. In an ethical vacuum that would be interesting, like hey we can see the genetic basis for this or that outcome, cool! Currently it comes with a whole heap of poo poo and half of the people backing it are mostly doing so because of their own sexual hangups or because they want a test to abort gay fetuses.
If they're that interested in genes and sexuality perhaps they should go look for a pedophile gene or a rapist gene or something that might provide useful information for improving society. Maybe some of the researchers really are just interested in sexuality being possibly genetic, but that doesn't happen in an ethical vacuum, and when your sponsors are holding a literal vacuum and waiting for the transvaginal gaydar then you should perhaps question your ethical duties beyond mere knowledge.
The answer to ignorance is not to be ignorant yourself. You're basically saying that it's ok to hold back human progress and the search for absolute truth because some people might do something bad.

quote:

There was a thread on that, it was bad. The only possible relevance to this thread is that it discussed the ethics of forced medical/surgical treatments to prevent someone doing something that you have decided is immoral.

Or they might be able to identify it in advance so that the person can transition before puberty, which by some metrics has far better results than post-pubescent transition. In which case it goes to the ethical issue of whether the individual be allowed an informed choice between physical or mental transition.
You have failed to acknowledge the fact that depression is a mental disorder that can be corrected with therapy or medicine, and I was analogizing it to body dismorphia. Body dismorphia is a mental disorder, it's gotta be. My position is that if someone's body dismorphia is caused by an chemical imbalance in their brain, then fixing that imbalance might fix their body dismorphia and cause them to no longer need to have a sex change. If this were the case, then people who have had surgical sex changes might have been the unfortunate victims of medical evolution, like those poor people that used to be lobotomized.

Cobweb Heart posted:

The post McAlister is quoting reads:
I couldn't anything about a sex change procedure in their last few posts in this thread, so I'm not really sure where you saw that. Gender is an extremely complex and difficult-to-discuss subject, so please read and try to understand carefully what each person is actually saying.
Hey thanks but I follow the conversation for more than 3 lines, sorry for bringing in more thoughts than you can handle in one post.

quote:

Because in 20 years, everyone who dislikes their dick or breasts and wants them gone will be rightfully recognized as mentally ill and simply encouraged by professionals to change their minds, and I guess everyone who's already done it will be dead and forgotten. It's an extreme offshoot of the same thinking that gives us the classic "God gave you your body, and taking anything off of it is an insult to Him" opinion.
Yes, in 20 years if a medicine or therapy were created that cured people's body dismorphia, nobody would ever feel any desire to cut off their dick or breasts and could get on living their life. That's the goal, no?

* # ¿ Apr 20, 2016 02:13
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NathanScottPhillips
Jul 23, 2009

Popular Thug Drink posted:

you're moving the goalposts. you said surgery should never be an option. then you said surgery could be an option. which is it?


dysmorphia isn't cured, it's treated. one of the potential treatments is surgically altering the body. this is in the DSM-V
Did I? Can you quote it?

e: slow down, kid. I said if it could be cured. Lobotomies used to be in medical journals toted as a treatment for depression. Please follow along.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

* # ¿ Apr 20, 2016 02:16
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NathanScottPhillips
Jul 23, 2009

Popular Thug Drink posted:


Who moved the goalposts?

* # ¿ Apr 20, 2016 02:19
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NathanScottPhillips
Jul 23, 2009

Popular Thug Drink posted:

it can be treated, with surgery. you have a tendency to use inflammatory and inaccurate language while perhaps not intending to? i bet this has caused some interpersonal problems in your communications with others, in the past
I'm using complete sentences with proper punctuation and capitalization. That is far more useful in life than whatever debate technique you are implementing. I do not prescribe emotions to word, but definitions. If you want to engage with what I've wrote let's do it, but I'm not going to apologize for using descriptive words that get my point across.

Popular Thug Drink posted:

so you disagree with the medical profession in that surgery should not be considered a valid option for gender dysmorphia? why? do you have a better reason than "doctors have been wrong in the past"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFPtjXFfczM
I wrote a couple paragraphs about why I think that.

* # ¿ Apr 20, 2016 02:29
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > [please be serious] Does gender have -anything- to do with gentials at ALL?