[please be serious] Does gender have -anything- to do with gentials at ALL?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > [please be serious] Does gender have -anything- to do with gentials at ALL?

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

rudatron posted:

Suppose gay conversion therapy worked. Would you allow someone who was gay, but felt uncomfortable being gay, take that therapy? I'm not sure I would, but you're stressing the importance of comfort, so you necessarily must. Peace of mind is a funny thing.

If we are going into magic fantasy land where a person can just take a pill and feel sexual desire towards X, sure why not?

Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Apr 20, 2016

# ¿ Apr 20, 2016 13:01

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

WampaLord posted:

The left button should be "People can be born as the wrong sex" and the comic should have the person slamming their hands down on both buttons.

Basically sex != gender.

Essentially the difference is between "I'm supposed to be male" and "I should be able to do 'man things'."

# ¿ Apr 20, 2016 14:55

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

the trump tutelage posted:

Are there very many trans people who pursue treatment to have their body match their sex but who continue to perform their assigned gender after physically transitioning? If not, then what good is the sex vs gender distinction in any practical sense?

Well, there are plenty of people who fit into the second category but not the first.

# ¿ Apr 20, 2016 15:42

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Do you agree with this or are you just posting it because it seems to vaguely disagree with PTD? Because asking people to argue with random articles you don't even support seems kind of pointless.

Edit-

SedanChair posted:

I'm not sure why Judith Butler gets to weigh in on any of this...

This too. I mean she's right, but she's right in a way that's kind of meaningless. Everything is a social construct, sort of, but it's not like we invented the two main biological archetypes or whatever you want to call them, they were already there.

Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Apr 20, 2016

# ¿ Apr 20, 2016 16:11

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

the trump tutelage posted:

"there wouldn't even be gender dysphoria if society as a whole didn't give a poo poo about your gender presentation".

This is probably untrue, but it would definitely be a lot less harmful to those experiencing it if society didn't give a poo poo. There's a reason top surgery is a thing even for those who have high success with binding.

# ¿ Apr 20, 2016 17:48

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Squalid posted:

If we could just get around to abolishing gender we wouldn't even need to have this thread.

If you abolish gender you don't have an explanation for why some people are getting their genitals changed. Which makes it pretty hard to get it paid for as a treatment.

# ¿ Apr 24, 2016 16:36

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Lichy posted:

Yeah I agree, there is no point at all developing alternative treatments for this problem, irreversible surgery that is not accessible to the vast majority of the worlds transgender population and extremely dangerous unless done by a highly qualified surgeon is the only solution, and is the perfect solution.

I too believe that we should focus on the pretend fantasies of posters in this thread and not the solutions provided by doctors and reality.

# ¿ Apr 26, 2016 21:58

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Reik posted:

The best solution is to stop caring what gender people are and let them do what makes them happiest.

But then how do I know who to gently caress?

I'm not earnest here, just taking the argument to the part we haven't been talking about yet is the actual thought process behind why many people care

# ¿ Apr 28, 2016 21:53

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Jebediah Kerman posted:

Okay, so someone's body may not conform to a purely male or female standard, that's fine. They could be intersex, and have other characteristics that can make them go either way or both.

But as far as gender identity goes, I'm not against how people want to identify themselves, that's up to them. But if for example someone was born male and they identify as female, and I know this, then I would just think of them as a man anyway. Out of respect for the person I would still refer to them as a female though aloud.

If someone is mentally and genetically a woman, but was born with a penis and forced to live as a boy by her parents her whole life, you would still call her a man?

# ¿ Apr 28, 2016 22:06

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Jebediah Kerman posted:

It's either that or outright tell them that I think they're a man anyway and cause a scene.

Also, I know a transgender. I've always called him a her cause I thought he was really a woman (this is someone I knew online), so I still call him a her still just cause. If he ends up asking about my opinion on gender identity I'd be happy to let them know

Problematic

I'm teasing, but entertained by the use of "a transgender" as well as that you've used every pronoun for the same person

# ¿ Apr 28, 2016 22:11

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

falcon2424 posted:

This requires you to think that "mentally a woman" is an actual thing.

But gender isn't determined by biology. And mental traits don't split along any obvious binary. So, what's left of the definition?

I'm not convinced that genders exist in any objective kind of way. Instead, "he's a man" is just a short-hand way of making a bunch of related claims like, "perceives him as male" or "he experiences dissonance if you call him anything other than male."

From there, you've got a philosophical point that's technically-correct, but likely to upset a whole bunch of people. So, it seems perfectly reasonable to not bring up the point around people who aren't interested in the debate.

All I meant was that her brain thinks her body should be female. IE gender dysphoria. Because someone can also be genetically female, born with male parts, and go through life with no dysphoria whatsoever. Right?

# ¿ Apr 29, 2016 12:21

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Baudolino posted:

Until we invent telepathy the only thing that matters are words and action that are visible to rest of the world. The realm of ethics ends where my skull begins because my tougths can`t hurt you or help you. I may be obligated to treat you the way you want to be treated but not to think about you the way you want to be tougth about.

yeah sure but when you admit to those secret thoughts on the internet we are still allowed to call you an rear end in a top hat.

# ¿ Apr 30, 2016 18:55

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

No one is really 100% expert on the way the human brain works and the best way to understand it is to accept it's reality from those who experience it.

# ¿ May 2, 2016 14:25

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 13:44

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Guavanaut posted:

This is also why there's a large crossover between TERFs and White Feminists, and why some African women eventually said "gently caress this" and split off to form Womanism when they got tired of White Feminists explaining to them "no, you're actually oppressed because of these reasons and these reasons alone try to keep up or you'll never break patriarchy what do you mean your experiences are completely different?"

The exact same thing that happened to Bernie Sanders with black voters. Interesting.

# ¿ May 5, 2016 14:38

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