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Tenebrais posted:I'm sure you actually can get up close to the orange panels. You can. See my handy map for details.  This is what I meant about the pathing being one of the most annoying parts of this bit. It's just so counterintuitive to even get to where you need to be. The puzzles in the upcoming drafting room (I think?) are neat, though.
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Sep 15, 2016 05:10
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Tenebrais posted:I'm sure you actually can get up close to the orange panels. ManicVolcanic posted:You can. See my handy map for details. I think at one point I saw that being possible but eh, I guess we just kinda powered through it and made it more difficult for ourselves.  Episode 44 - Martin Sheen (08 Puzzles Solved)
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Sep 18, 2016 02:52
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To be fair I had been feeling a bit queasy for unrelated reasons anyway, but the first time I saw that color-shifting puzzle I had to go throw up.
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Sep 18, 2016 03:56
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The color-shifting puzzles gave me a bit of a headache, but I found them fun. They do only add more fuel to the claim that this game is unplayable for people with disabilities. Deafness and colorblindness can be excused by saying that the areas where those would be a major problem are optional because you only need 7 areas complete to unlock the End. But now we're in the End and they pull this flashing-colorful-lights crap, and it's not optional cause it's the final area. Oh well. Up the stairs are more difficult hard light bridges. I had to look up the solutions there. The puzzles on the far side of the room are fantastic though.
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Sep 18, 2016 07:34
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The puzzles across the room were the first time I cursed JoBlo's name, mostly because I was tired when I got to them, and the moment I realized what was going on, I decided I was not okay with this poo poo. Also, I look forward to seeing if you're able to solve this room faster than the other LP. If I recall correctly, it took them something like an hour and a half.
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Sep 18, 2016 09:07
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Bruceski posted:To be fair I had been feeling a bit queasy for unrelated reasons anyway, but the first time I saw that color-shifting puzzle I had to go throw up. ManicVolcanic posted:The color-shifting puzzles gave me a bit of a headache, but I found them fun. They do only add more fuel to the claim that this game is unplayable for people with disabilities. Deafness and colorblindness can be excused by saying that the areas where those would be a major problem are optional because you only need 7 areas complete to unlock the End. But now we're in the End and they pull this flashing-colorful-lights crap, and it's not optional cause it's the final area. Oh well. LogicalFallacy posted:The puzzles across the room were the first time I cursed JoBlo's name, mostly because I was tired when I got to them, and the moment I realized what was going on, I decided I was not okay with this poo poo. Also, I look forward to seeing if you're able to solve this room faster than the other LP. If I recall correctly, it took them something like an hour and a half.  Episode 45 - Never Put It Past Blow (08 Puzzles Solved)
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Sep 21, 2016 16:20
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I really super loved the connected row of panels and the idea of having to use the same solution to solve more than one thing. It made sense to me, and it felt satisfying instead of cheap like most of the other End puzzles were. The two paths though. I'm not down with them.
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Sep 21, 2016 22:48
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I love that even now you keep forgetting the rules for the starbursts. They're oddly fiddly compared to all the other puzzle pieces.
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Sep 21, 2016 22:48
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The concurrent puzzles were a cool idea that felt difficult, but fair. The simultaneous light bridges were a cool idea executed in absolute tedium.
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Sep 22, 2016 14:56
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AlphaKretin posted:The simultaneous light bridges were a cool idea executed in absolute tedium. The actual idea is pretty easy (can do it in 5 trips across the floor counting the one to the exit) but it's also very easy to get stuck or down the wrong track.
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Sep 22, 2016 19:31
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The light bridges are fair too, I think. It's absolutely clear what you need to achieve with them and there's no gotchas there. You just need to think on the more abstract level to be solving the puzzle multiple times.
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Sep 22, 2016 22:07
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You can really screw yourself over and get kinda boxed in. At some point I was stuck at the far side and couldn't figure out how to rebuild the bridge I took there. Eventually I managed to do it. From there on I had to retrace a few steps to start back at the beginning and do it right. It would probably help to have a reset switch on the starting side.
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Sep 22, 2016 23:16
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I think it would have taken me quite a while to figure out that you kinda need to do both bridges separately. Figuring out what needed to be done with those two bridges was really intimidating at first glance. Episode 46 - More of a Penultimate Vibe (04ish Puzzles Solved)
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Sep 24, 2016 20:41
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That meta-puzzle is another one of those really satisfying sound cues. For a game with so little soundtrack, it has some of the best audio design.
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Sep 25, 2016 01:05
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I was trying to figure out how to explain that I didn't really find the dual bridges that hard to solve, and then I realised it's because I played a lot of Tron Light Cycles when I was younger, so I instinctively am drawn to maximise space while drawing lines when I only have a limited amount.
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Sep 25, 2016 01:34
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I liked that there was an immediate sense of suspicion when the four puzzles on the floor appeared to be too easy. I wonder if that had an effect on your overthinking them until Jesse saw the solution.
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Sep 25, 2016 01:39
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Tenebrais posted:That meta-puzzle is another one of those really satisfying sound cues. For a game with so little soundtrack, it has some of the best audio design. frozentreasure posted:I was trying to figure out how to explain that I didn't really find the dual bridges that hard to solve, and then I realised it's because I played a lot of Tron Light Cycles when I was younger, so I instinctively am drawn to maximise space while drawing lines when I only have a limited amount. Kangra posted:I liked that there was an immediate sense of suspicion when the four puzzles on the floor appeared to be too easy. I wonder if that had an effect on your overthinking them until Jesse saw the solution.  Episode 47 - Roundabout (10 Puzzles Solved) Doodles Googley Eyes
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Sep 28, 2016 16:01
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You still haven't found the thing yet. Edit: Huh, So this is my new name now? Okay then.
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Sep 28, 2016 20:16
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The wrapping on those pillars does make them quite difficult when you first encounter them. This isn't the first time you've seen this kind of puzzle (as far as it showing up on your screen goes), but this is the first time your attention is called to them.cant cook creole bream posted:You still haven't found the thing yet. I actually need to take another swing at doing said thing within the thing.
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Sep 28, 2016 20:33
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Fun fact about the timed puzzle door: You don't have to do them both in one go. If you solve one, you don't have to re-solve the one on that side of the door if you run out of time. The pillars are neat. They have a really disorienting whipping-round motion which I don't appreciate, but they were cool.
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Sep 29, 2016 00:11
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The pillars are another great piece of audio. A nice twist on the puzzle design too. I assume the challenge was originally meant to be the fact the puzzle wraps around rather than having hard borders on all four sides, but the real difficulty comes from only being able to see half the puzzle at a time.
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Sep 29, 2016 01:01
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 Episode 48 - A Star at Dawn (04 Puzzles Solved) Also here's a bonus in which we discuss our feelings after the first ending
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Oct 1, 2016 21:47
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It's so rude that the game boots you back to the desktop. Undoing all progress is such a terrible way to end something. Also Yeah that was the thing.
cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Oct 1, 2016 |
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Oct 1, 2016 22:44
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You found the thing! Now you just need to cry yourself to sleep after solving all the puzzles down there (Spoilers:They do nothing.) and find the other thing. THe other thing will prompt even more crying and an intense burning hatred of a certain famous song.
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Oct 2, 2016 00:06
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 Congratulations on finishing the main game. And on finding the entrance to the secret area. Had you spoiled yourself on the triangle mechanics, or were you just messing around for that? I like the secret area. A bunch of bonus puzzles, for those that enjoyed the puzzles enough to do all the lasers. There's also a lot of audio logs in this area. Keep an eye out for them! Regarding the ending: Once you open up the game again after the elevator ride, a player would probably find the thing you discovered right at the start of the LP, which is an actual ending. Tenebrais fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Oct 2, 2016 |
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Oct 2, 2016 00:42
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Welcome to the Mountain. It's the postgame. It's got some fiendish puzzles in it. It's got the brutal bonus zone in it. Enjoy.
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Oct 2, 2016 02:55
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LogicalFallacy posted:You found the thing! Now you just need to cry yourself to sleep after solving all the puzzles down there (Spoilers:They do nothing.) and find the other thing. THe other thing will prompt even more crying and an intense burning hatred of a certain famous song. And then if they manage to finish with the other thing, they get the OTHER other thing as a reward!
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Oct 2, 2016 03:42
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I don't want to say that I think Katie isn't quite the ideal player of a game like this, based on the things she's said about expectations for a story and the replay value of games without one. What I will say, which I'm sure Blow would say or think to himself, is that all three of you feeling dissatisfaction with the ending, and your desire for there to be something else, something more, something big that the game builds up to in a traditional narrative or thematically-tying climax, is proving a point he was trying to make. One of my problems with The Witness, though, is that it doesn't make that point as well as Antichamber did three years ago. Nor does it really make any of its points better than the words and works of others throughout history that it is verbatim referencing, for that matter. Without wanting to spoil Antichamber for anyone who hasn't played it (skip this post and play it, then), it also is more of a "pure" puzzle game that seems to be building towards an ending, has an ending sequence, and then appears to not really resolve itself in any meaningful way or bring closure to the story. It even quits the game, I think it may have been the first game to start that trend, though it feels much more expected in the way that game ends, and doesn't start you off on a blank save afterwards. When I got a chance to talk to the developer, Alexander Bruce, he told me about how many complaints he got from people who weren't happy with the ending, and he was very forthcoming about how those people missed the point. At basically every point in Antichamber the game makes clear, in a fairly on-the-nose fashion, that you shouldn't be trying to rush to the ending, it's about the journey, etc., and that focusing on the ending and judging the game based on whatever payoff you were expecting despite the game making no effort to build it up by any means is robbing you of the rest of the experience. We're closing in on ten years since Portal came out. Ever since Portal, I think players have, without realising it, developed an expectation that a puzzle game, especially if it's in first-person, should have really well-designed puzzles for the first 90% of the game and then have some story sequence that brings together any incidental environmental touches as context clues for a bigger world, and to have an explosive finish; and a bias towards games that don't. I can think of a lot of puzzle games that have come out in the past decade, and plenty of them are no-frills, purely about the puzzles, don't have any significant story to speak of, and don't have a big finish. And plenty of them are fine like that; they still get harder, have plenty of mechanics, and provide the endorphin rush of solving a puzzle, which is the absolute first goal of a puzzle game. I've never had a problem with those types of puzzle games not having a story, and it's never particularly killed the replay value for me, I still go back to re-solve puzzle games every couple of years once I've forgotten enough of the specifics. Then you have a game like The Talos Principle (for some reason likened to Portal, which I don't see aside from being first-person and having a voice talk to you), which does have a story and tie everything together in a big, telegraphed, climactic ending, and that works as well. It works phenomenally, in my opinion. I think both types of game structure are perfectly fine, and I notice that people don't have the expectation for every puzzle game. Is it because some of them are first-person and, therefore, are somehow like Portal and should do Portal things? Is it because some puzzle games are level-based, while others have more of an open world, which makes people want the world to be incorporated into the puzzle design? Whatever the case, I think it's a little unfair to criticise a game for not having a story and climactic ending when it never tried to have a story or hint at much of a climactic ending and was clearly trying to promote the experience as a whole. Except The Witness doesn't do this. Jesse's right that the audio logs aren't really setting up a story as much as trying to reinforce themes, but the game is very clearly trying to pull a bait-and-switch by actually building up the journey to the bottom of the mountain for the entire game and then offering nothing for it. It so obviously wants to get you to reach the end and be frustrated that it didn't deliver on anything it was telegraphing, so it can then go "ah, but maybe that was the point" in as smug a tone as possible. It's like telling somebody "I'm coming over in an hour," them saying "okay," then when they ask where you are an hour later, saying "I was never coming over, and now you're a fool for being lulled into my charade! You shouldn't have expected that I would come over at all!" But the other person has absolutely no reason to not expect you'll come over, and the player has no reason not to expect something of importance at the location that is being visually coded as important for the entire game. And there isn't anything of real importance, it's just some more, slightly harder, puzzles, which end the game. Personally, I had an inkling after awhile that the game wasn't going to try and tell me anything when I got inside the mountain. The puzzles are satisfying, and I thought the ground floor puzzle was a good final boss of mechanics, while the whole climb down the mountain felt like it was suitably upping the scale, but I never found myself expecting that whatever awaited at the bottom was going to resolve any questions I had. Partly that was because I had stopped asking questions. I figured that if it's a Jon Blow game, I should just play the game and enjoy the puzzles. Especially since it was clear that the game had no particularly unique message of its own, nor even an original take on the themes, instead just playing back things other people have said and leaving it at that. So I agree with the general sentiment that it's a fine game as far as gameplay goes, but my issue with it isn't solely that that first ending was a poor payoff to the descent, rather that none of the stuff surrounding the puzzles is worth the time it takes to engage with it.
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Oct 2, 2016 06:13
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frozentreasure posted:many, many words
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Oct 2, 2016 06:53
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LogicalFallacy posted:Jonathon Blow is a pretentious rear end. As someone who as never seen or played any of his work, holy poo poo this. Jesse made some good points about the overall world but god drat the wonkavator ending is one of the funniest gently caress you endings I've ever seen.
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Oct 2, 2016 08:54
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frozentreasure posted:Except The Witness doesn't do this. Jesse's right that the audio logs aren't really setting up a story as much as trying to reinforce themes, but the game is very clearly trying to pull a bait-and-switch by actually building up the journey to the bottom of the mountain for the entire game and then offering nothing for it. It so obviously wants to get you to reach the end and be frustrated that it didn't deliver on anything it was telegraphing, so it can then go "ah, but maybe that was the point" in as smug a tone as possible. It's like telling somebody "I'm coming over in an hour," them saying "okay," then when they ask where you are an hour later, saying "I was never coming over, and now you're a fool for being lulled into my charade! You shouldn't have expected that I would come over at all!" But the other person has absolutely no reason to not expect you'll come over, and the player has no reason not to expect something of importance at the location that is being visually coded as important for the entire game. And there isn't anything of real importance, it's just some more, slightly harder, puzzles, which end the game. I don't think the game was going for a bait-and-switch. From the start, the game never intended to have a story to tie all the puzzles together. The game held no purpose other than to present puzzles for the player to solve. This gives us the mystery of who invented the island with three possibilities: 1) the fictional designers 2) Blow 3) Blow-as-a-fictional designer. Given the statues of people creating the puzzle grids, I felt that the island existed, created by whoever, for the purpose of testing knowledge, a kind of intellectual forum. As such, the goal of the players is to solve puzzles for the betterment of knowledge. The structure of the island was just an excuse to place a puzzle and to incorporate different elements into the puzzle. The lack of an audio narrative may leave one to consider environmental storytelling, but even this should prove fruitless when one sees the inane objects and locales gathered. Each "area" and the components therein are connected together but remain independent, reinforcing the fact that they exist solely for the puzzles. They island appears manufactured because it is, and the purpose behind its manufacturing (be that by Blow, the fictional designers within the game, or Blow-as-a-fictional-designer within the game) is to provide puzzles. The game never pressures you into solving a puzzle (unlike Antichamber that teases from the start that hidden paths and solutions await). The Witness needs no more motivation than the desire to solve a puzzle. "Here is a puzzle; you can solve it because you want." To expect anything more would be entirely on the part of the player, probably ignited by similar puzzle games like Portal, Braid, or Fez. In the end, it doesn't matter who invented the island. For me at least, the game serves as a critique of games and also, maybe even more importantly so, "scientific" thinking. The audio files all contain samples explaining the act of scientific inquiry. These mirror the thought processes the player must develop to solve puzzles. The audio files question how an individual can solve a problem, wonder where the knowledge comes from, and explain the method of testing hypotheses. Meanwhile, the player must observe, given no overt rules, how to solve a puzzle and how the mechanics in each puzzle work. The audio files explain, to the player, that the greatest of scientific thinking is not as foreign to our everyday lives as we think it is. The knowledge sleeps out there, we just need to stretch our fingers a bit more. The audio files also raise the question of why we want to solve the puzzle, answering that maybe a puzzle can be a puzzle for puzzle's sake. Shouldn't the satisfaction of gaining knowledge be sufficient? Given this, the biggest conflict is internalized in the player instead of in the game. As for critique on games, the movies harp on the theme of obsession. This makes me question why players become obsessed with video games. As stated earlier, players will probably bring preconceive notions into this game. One of these notions is probably the typical structure of story-telling in video games. In Portal, people didn't solve puzzles to solve the puzzles or test their thinking; they did it to hear more of Glados. In Portal 2, players didn't put portals on the only available wall (side note: in terms of puzzles, I think Portal 2 fails) to test their knowledge; they did it to hear more Whitley or Glados or JK Simmons's impressive voice-acting range. In the majority of video games, the goal isn't to complete a challenge. The challenge provides an obstacle to the main spectacle, which increasingly has become the continuation of the story. Maybe this creates an obsession cycle where the player seeks instant gratification. Coming into The Witness, players bring in the idea that they deserve some sort of payment for their work, a reward for enjoying a game. They bring the preconception that a complex "reason" must exist for anything. The Witness posits, without really having to posit, that the puzzles are an end to themselves. No one tells you to solve the puzzles, just like no one tells you to go to the store, buy a crossword puzzle book, and have fun. The game is about enjoying at your leisure. Had the game ended with the fictional designers of the island applauding the player, would that have been better? How would that have fit the narrative? It may have been satisfying (although that satisfaction is something manufactured through outside triggers telling you to be satisfied rather than a natural emotion), but it would be unnecessary. The game actively tells the player to not become obsessed with the game. Just enjoy it. Sudden thought: The game also criticizes needing to know the "real meaning" for full comprehension. Since, sarcastically, the game makes more sense when you know the "real meaning", Usually, needing to know the "real meaning" hinders the initial purpose of a video game, which is to play for fun, while The Witness can be fun while having a "deeper/real/darker/clickbait-term meaning" go unnoticed. With the state of games, I feel it is unfair to call Blow pretentious. Or, maybe, that pretentious shouldn't be used as an insult. Sure he may be smug and he may like to show off how "smart" he is, but I think his games challenge the audience to think. After seeing this game, I can't believe Blow made it because he hates people. Sure, it may be unsatisfying. Sure, it may sound like someone stroking their ego. But, it's nice that someone is challenging the player with more than a game. Personally I think Portal and Portal 2 are more pretentious since it panders to the player. Every time Portal makes the player "think", it provides a pithy line to delude the player. Portal 2's difficulty is very minimal yet rewards the player with what the player desires at the slightest of accomplishments. Personally, I think Deadly Premonition is more pretentious since the game handholds the player through disjointed twists and turns. Blah blah blah. Blow may be pretentious, but he at least tries to make us think. Edit: I have more to say about the actual ending, but, eh, later.
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Oct 3, 2016 17:37
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 Most people know 'The Witness' as a pretty puzzle game. I think that's probably a good thing. Also, things you should check out: (Very minor spoilers about how the game furnishes you with hints) ... the pond in the middle of the island and all the obelisks around the island. Also also, based on your save file you've got a ways to go before 100%'ing this game, if such a thing can be contemplated. Teledahn fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 08:25
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Lots of things to reply to! I love it.cant cook creole bream posted:It's so rude that the game boots you back to the desktop. Undoing all progress is such a terrible way to end something. Also Yeah that was the thing. LogicalFallacy posted:You found the thing! Now you just need to cry yourself to sleep after solving all the puzzles down there (Spoilers:They do nothing.) and find the other thing. THe other thing will prompt even more crying and an intense burning hatred of a certain famous song. Tenebrais posted:Congratulations on finishing the main game. And on finding the entrance to the secret area. Had you spoiled yourself on the triangle mechanics, or were you just messing around for that? Also congrats Katie, you were right, it's an ending. whitehelm posted:And then if they manage to finish with the other thing, they get the OTHER other thing as a reward! frozentreasure posted:So I agree with the general sentiment that it's a fine game as far as gameplay goes, but my issue with it isn't solely that that first ending was a poor payoff to the descent, rather that none of the stuff surrounding the puzzles is worth the time it takes to engage with it. DocGator posted:As someone who as never seen or played any of his work, holy poo poo this. Mr. Highway posted:...whole lotta words and thoughts... Teledahn posted:Also also, based on your save file you've got a ways to go before 100%'ing this game, if such a thing can be contemplated. But let's get to that cave!  Episode 49 - Pumpkin Hill (05 Puzzles Solved)
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Oct 5, 2016 17:55
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homphgomph posted:I don't think we're going to 100% this game since it sounds like that's still kind of a mystery? Blow tweeted saying a puzzle count and even he was being like "oho! maybe there's more! hehehe." There are some things we (mostly I) want to accomplish, and then we'll probably call it an LP. I hope there's a few videos of you all hunting environmental puzzles.
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Oct 6, 2016 05:08
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Without going into how far we've gotten puzzle-wise in the caves, I have to say that I'm finding myself liking the island proper as a whole rather than anything we've come across inside the mountain. The initial "end" was a disappointment for me, but at the same time I don't really know how I'd like it to have ended. You get so far and then magically fly through the air while reseting everything that you've accomplished is just very lackluster for me. Then again, how else would you end it? I don't deny that I would have liked a story to go along with everything, but this is not that type of game. I still stand by my statement that the Witness overall is like the a pretty version of a puzzle book you can get at the grocery store. There's no real reason to go back and play the it all over again once it's reset cause it's lost that discovery newness you get with a first play through (unless you just like to replay games like that. Then more power to you.) I will say the further we get into the challenge area the more bitter I get. Personally, I'd really like to get back to those landscape puzzles!
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Oct 6, 2016 05:39
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homphgomph posted:I don't think we're going to 100% this game since it sounds like that's still kind of a mystery? Blow tweeted saying a puzzle count and even he was being like "oho! maybe there's more! hehehe." There are some things we (mostly I) want to accomplish, and then we'll probably call it an LP. There's definitely a specific number that people are consistently hitting without going over (100% speed runs exist), so that's just Blow being Blow. It's not really worth it though; I'll be happy with all the "things" being shown off.
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Oct 7, 2016 00:05
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I at least recommend going back to the starting area, there's some nice environmental puzzles there. Coming back to the triangle puzzles, I can see what Blow et al were going for with it. If all the different puzzle mechanics are Metroidvania-style tools and upgrades, then the triangle puzzles are the secret upgrade that requires you to assemble the hidden items scattered across the world to access a final challenge. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work. They couldn't tutorialise effectively having them scattered about like that, and not being found in any particular order. I think it could have been improved if each of the triangle panels you solve in the world appeared together at the start of this secret area. Maybe switch the places of the three-triangle puzzle and that conventional squares one after, so you could put all the triangle puzzles in that little corridor. That way you could refer to them, compare them, play with them, and you'd be much more likely to figure out the mechanic rather than get frustrated with it and look it up. And of course if you hadn't found enough of the panels out in the world you'd still have no idea what the connecting logic is, even if you wouldn't need them all to figure it out.
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Oct 7, 2016 23:17
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Teledahn posted:I hope there's a few videos of you all hunting environmental puzzles. whitehelm posted:There's definitely a specific number that people are consistently hitting without going over (100% speed runs exist), so that's just Blow being Blow. It's not really worth it though; I'll be happy with all the "things" being shown off. Tenebrais posted:Coming back to the triangle puzzles, I can see what Blow et al were going for with it. If all the different puzzle mechanics are Metroidvania-style tools and upgrades, then the triangle puzzles are the secret upgrade that requires you to assemble the hidden items scattered across the world to access a final challenge. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work. They couldn't tutorialise effectively having them scattered about like that, and not being found in any particular order.  Episode 50 - The Intrepid (27 Puzzles Solved)
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Oct 8, 2016 14:17
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I guess it's less "bonus challenge area" and more "bonus puzzles-we-made-while-bored area".  Also. The Witness - I don't even like sandwiches 
AlphaKretin fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Oct 8, 2016 |
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Oct 8, 2016 14:56
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AlphaKretin posted:I guess it's less "bonus challenge area" and more "bonus puzzles-we-made-while-bored area". No truer words have been written about this video's area. And that thread title would be A+.
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Oct 8, 2016 16:19
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