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Hmm... https://twitter.com/sarahditum/status/733200558828445696 It's almost like this isn't about the rhetoric of suicide statistics at all! And is in fact just another way to say that transgender people aren't real, they are all just men looking for a way to abuse women! fishmech posted:Reminder that the first TERFs were people who got real mad when trans people dumped them. Xanderkish posted:Nah, terfs suck because they attack trans people under the guise of being progressive, and that arguably makes them more awful than people you can know and expect to hate you like the right. It's even more insidious because they can then be co-opted by right groups to further their own bigotry. Yeah, it's very frustrating because I'll be reading an article or a twitter feed about some other topic and thinking, "Oh hey that's a good point," and then I'll click on the next thing and it's some of the most hateful and disgusting transphobia out there. I've heard that people are more angry at ideological divergences among people who are more closely aligned with them than with people who are completely opposed, so that makes sense.
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May 22, 2016 15:11
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Sharkie posted:
Janice Raymond was an activist for transgender rights before her partner transitioned (ftm) and left her because he didn't feel like he could be in a lesbian relationship anymore, at which point she immediately flipped and wrote The Transsexual Empire and started lobbying against things like medicare/medicaid covering anything to do with transpeople. Several other feminists of that time period had similar things happened and joined up with Janice Raymond.
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May 22, 2016 15:39
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fishmech posted:Janice Raymond was an activist for transgender rights before her partner transitioned (ftm) and left her because he didn't feel like he could be in a lesbian relationship anymore, at which point she immediately flipped and wrote The Transsexual Empire and started lobbying against things like medicare/medicaid covering anything to do with transpeople. Several other feminists of that time period had similar things happened and joined up with Janice Raymond. "All transsexuals rape women's bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves. .... Transsexuals merely cut off the most obvious means of invading women, so that they seem non-invasive." Jesus christ what a loving shitbag.
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May 22, 2016 15:47
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fishmech posted:Janice Raymond was an activist for transgender rights before her partner transitioned (ftm) and left her because he didn't feel like he could be in a lesbian relationship anymore, at which point she immediately flipped and wrote The Transsexual Empire and started lobbying against things like medicare/medicaid covering anything to do with transpeople. Several other feminists of that time period had similar things happened and joined up with Janice Raymond. I was aware of Raymond and her "activism" but not that detail. Yardbomb posted:Jesus christ what a loving shitbag.
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May 22, 2016 15:55
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Yardbomb posted:Jesus christ what a loving shitbag.
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May 22, 2016 16:37
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Yardbomb posted:"All transsexuals rape women's bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves. .... Transsexuals merely cut off the most obvious means of invading women, so that they seem non-invasive." I can understand the processes that lead to TERFs existing, but Jesus are they ever loving awful. I think it's a combination of self-hatred and spite. If you are a woman, and you enjoy being a woman, surely you would understand what drives other people to also feel like a woman and to prefer being a woman, unless of course you derive your feeling of gender identity exclusively from your gentalia, which seems bizarre and sad to say the least. And if you feel spiteful because your girlfriend realized his gender identity was not female, that's even worse and unbelievably petty. Edit: which is not to say the relationship should continue. If you don't feel sexually attracted to your partner as they transition, that's an issue of your sexual orientation and is no one's fault. PT6A fucked around with this message at 16:48 on May 22, 2016 |
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May 22, 2016 16:45
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Ditum has to find some way to get outrage clicks because shitposting in the Guardian about how Thomas the Tank Engine is fascist propaganda just doesn't work anymore. 
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May 22, 2016 18:18
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PT6A posted:If you are a woman, and you enjoy being a woman, surely you would understand what drives other people to also feel like a woman and to prefer being a woman, unless of course you derive your feeling of gender identity exclusively from your gentalia, which seems bizarre and sad to say the least. I don't really see it that way, personally, at least for some of the classic writers like Raymond. One of the key tenants of second wave radical feminism is that gender exists as a system to opress females and elevate males. There are some biological differences he patriarchy uses to rationalize the system, but gender is first and foremost a form of social control. Women are socially conditioned to be subservient and secondary to men, and this weird caste system is assigned at birth. In such a reality, being a woman/female is a pretty lovely thing! There may be solidarity and sisterhood and power amongst women, but it is in many ways a balm to ease the sting of oppression. When radical feminists talk about "gender abolition," it's generally understood to mean that the goal of feminist activity is to undermine and destroy this system of oppression. The framework can get a little bit out of whack when you try to wrestle with how trans people fit into this, and this is where TERFs get crazy. Since gender is a caste that you're brought up with from birth, and men/males get all the good stuff, transitioning from female to male really makes sense for social mobility-- if you can't beat them, join them. It's a pretty rank betrayal! This person is effectively abandoning the struggle to become an oppressor! Now trans women, that's another story entirely. What possible reason would someone have for wanting to be a woman? Being a woman is poo poo! You spend your entire life being dismissed, belittled, having your portions and mobility limited, and historically shackled to your reproductive system. There must be an ulterior motive! Following this thought, things get pretty hateful pretty quickly. Regardless though, this kind of ideology sees gender identity as inherently a poisonous thing, particularly for people assigned female at birth, and rather than breaking down the system, to them, gender transition upholds it. IMO it's the great irony of a lot of feminist praxis, including modern trans inclusive/driven ones that we end up constantly recreating the gender binary in our quests to free ourselves from it, exchanging social position for hormonal status or, birth assignment, or some related intangible. IMO it's a mistake to center your analysis around birth sex assignment or internal gender identity when they're effectively invisible things, but that's another can of worms. Frankly, there's just a lot of pain that trans people go through, are put through, and try to manage. It'd be better to just be compassionate and work on helping people actually live as comfortable and fulfilling lives as they can. Using people's existences as thought experiments leads to ugly places. Octatonic fucked around with this message at 18:24 on May 22, 2016 |
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May 22, 2016 18:20
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Octatonic posted:Regardless though, this kind of ideology sees gender identity as inherently a poisonous thing, particularly for people assigned female at birth, and rather than breaking down the system, to them, gender transition upholds it. IMO it's the great irony of a lot of feminist praxis, including modern trans inclusive/driven ones that we end up constantly recreating the gender binary in our quests to free ourselves from it, exchanging social position for hormonal status or, birth assignment, or some related intangible. IMO it's a mistake to center your analysis around birth sex assignment or internal gender identity when they're effectively invisible things, but that's another can of worms. It's a reddit comment but it pretty much sums it up: "act stereotypically feminine: ''you're supporting the binary' break stereotypes: 'you're not really a woman'"
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May 22, 2016 19:49
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Well, that TERF link was wonderful, and by wonderful, I mean infuriating. It's nice to know that there are hateful idiots all over the ideological spectrum. By wonderful, of course, I mean absolutely terrible.
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May 22, 2016 22:38
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metalloid posted:Well, that TERF link was wonderful, and by wonderful, I mean infuriating. It's nice to know that there are hateful idiots all over the ideological spectrum. By wonderful, of course, I mean absolutely terrible. TERFs actually often find their allies these days amongst the alt-right. Weird but true.
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May 23, 2016 01:01
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This is a thing that keeps happening to white second wavers for some reason, like when they allied with Jerry Falwell against porn, or when they worked to create exceptions to trans coverage in medicare and insurance back in the eighties.
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May 23, 2016 01:31
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metalloid posted:Well, that TERF link was wonderful, and by wonderful, I mean infuriating. It's nice to know that there are hateful idiots all over the ideological spectrum. By wonderful, of course, I mean absolutely terrible. The right wing has never had a monopoly on hatred. There are some legitimately lovely people with okay political beliefs.
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May 23, 2016 01:35
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Small Frozen Thing posted:TERFs actually often find their allies these days amongst the alt-right. Weird but true. Isn't there one that literally goes around with Milo Yianoplous on his Dangerous human being tour?
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May 23, 2016 03:41
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Raymond herself wrote a policy paper arguing that Medicaid/Medicare shouldn't cover transition related procedures and sent it to the Reagan Administration. This paper was used by Reagan as a justification to drop the coverage for Trans-related medical services, and most if not all insurance companies followed suit after that, and it wasn't until fairly recently that trans coverage has been reinstated by insurance providers.
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May 23, 2016 16:56
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Instant Sunrise posted:Raymond herself wrote a policy paper arguing that Medicaid/Medicare shouldn't cover transition related procedures and sent it to the Reagan Administration. This paper was used by Reagan as a justification to drop the coverage for Trans-related medical services, and most if not all insurance companies followed suit after that, and it wasn't until fairly recently that trans coverage has been reinstated by insurance providers. Yardbomb posted:Jesus christ what a loving shitbag.
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May 23, 2016 17:55
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Yea, TERFs are human garbage piles. Like someone already said you fuckin expect Huckabee and all to be regressive idiots because Jesus Hates Everyone But Me, This I Know, but TERFs pretend to be actual progressives. Like, you can find yourself bamboozled by a TERF. "Oh hey this lady is making some really good points about this feminist issue, awesome. She seems like a smart person, let's see what else she's written." "TRANS PEOPLE ARE ALL RAPISTS AND PART OF A CONSPIRACY TO ENSLAVE WOMEN" "gently caress! TERF'd again!"
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May 23, 2016 18:35
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11 States are suing the Obama Administration after the administration pointed out the interpretation of Title IX they'd been using for a while now. Agencies named in the suit include the Department of Justice, the Department of Education, the Department of Labor, etc., as well as Loretta Lynch and other officials. Read it here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/apps/g/page/politics/lawsuit-challenging-obamas-guidance-on-transgender-facilities-in-schools/2040/ Of course it's massively stupid, a waste of resources, a fight to discriminate against transgender people, etc. But maybe there's a chance to get this settled in court similar to earlier victories with gay marriage?
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May 26, 2016 00:19
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Sharkie posted:11 States are suing the Obama Administration after the administration pointed out the interpretation of Title IX they'd been using for a while now. Agencies named in the suit include the Department of Justice, the Department of Education, the Department of Labor, etc., as well as Loretta Lynch and other officials. I can't see how they hope to win this, Scalia is dead, and unless Trump wins more progressive judges will fill the bench, and even when Scalia WAS alive, Gay Marriage passed. This is just them attempting to distract voters from actual issues.
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May 26, 2016 02:47
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It's also an election year so they can set up situations where they tell their constituents that mean ol Obama is trumping your right to take a whiz without perverts watching you. Vote republican!
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May 26, 2016 02:58
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Apparently a bathroom bill has been proposed by a member of Michigan Senate, but it looks like it's probably going nowhere. Not likely to make it out of committee. If it did become law, it its current form, it seems it'd only apply to students. Students would be required to use a unisex or staff bathroom instead, but only if they get permission from their parents. The link is the Detroit Free Press, NOT Free Republic. http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2016/05/25/transgender-bathroom-bill-debuts-but-isnt-priority/84917386/
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May 27, 2016 14:40
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I love the Free Press's URL.
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May 27, 2016 15:17
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That Milo guy was at my school DePaul University, apparently he got invited. Anyway protesters shut it down completely.
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May 31, 2016 19:13
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A bit of good news for transgender people in my home country of Denmark. Denmark to declassify being transgender as mental disorder Though the few that I know, while happy about the intention, are holding off breaking out the champagne until they see, what concrete changes in how they get their medical treatment it involves. Sadly, our current system is still very much stuck in the old ways of suspicion and humiliating scrutiny. Still... one small step in the right direction at least. 
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Jun 1, 2016 17:10
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GhostBoy posted:A bit of good news for transgender people in my home country of Denmark. Denmark to declassify being transgender as mental disorder Has it been reported anywhere if this is reclassifying a la the DSM 5 (where the identity itself isn't a disorder, but the distress is), classifying it elsewhere or a complete removal of any diagnosis?
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Jun 1, 2016 18:34
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Taitale posted:Has it been reported anywhere if this is reclassifying a la the DSM 5 (where the identity itself isn't a disorder, but the distress is), classifying it elsewhere or a complete removal of any diagnosis? From what I can gather, the danish system mirrors the WHO system, which apparently called ICD 10 . They will remove the code DF640 (transsexualism) from the list of mental illnesses. So it's the danish version of the WHO's F64.0 code that is being declassified (the danish codes mean exactly the same as WHO's, but are for whatever reason just with an added 'D' and without the point between the second and third number). The exact definition is quote:A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex. Part of the whole thing is to send a signal to WHO who is evaluating the same question later this year, with the little added bonus that even if the WHO decides against declassifying it, the health minister has said that Denmark will regardless. "Removal of any diagnosis" is one of the sticking points, and part of why people are holding off until they see the concrete effect. There are concerns that getting access to health care without a diagnosis will make things harder, not easier. I *think* the idea is that the diagnosis will remain, just not be associated with something that requires entry into the psychiatric care system. But nobody really knows at this point. GhostBoy fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Jun 1, 2016 |
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Jun 1, 2016 20:02
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Does that mean that Denmark will no longer require trans people to be castrated/sterilized in order to get a recognition of gender change? (I think it's Denmark that does that, definitely one of the Scandinavian countries.)
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Jun 1, 2016 20:33
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Obviously this is probably different in a country with an actual Universal Health Care system, but I know in the US there was some concern within the trans community that removing the diagnosis could lead to insurance companies dropping trans-related coverage because it was no longer considered a disorder to be treated. So I can understand those concerns.
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Jun 1, 2016 21:11
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i don't see how it isn't a mental disorder, most of the effects are mental, except for the people who get literally sick cause of dysphoria
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Jun 1, 2016 21:35
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Guavanaut posted:Does that mean that Denmark will no longer require trans people to be castrated/sterilized in order to get a recognition of gender change? We changed that law in 2014. Before that you had to go through surgery to officially change gender (as in what appears on your passport and such). Now it's just a question of filling out the paperwork, and after a 6 month waiting period it's done. You don't have to be in active treatment or anything, just attest to your desire. quote:i don't see how it isn't a mental disorder, most of the effects are mental, except for the people who get literally sick cause of dysphoria "Mental disorder" is perhaps not a great term, but since the WHO list groups all diagnoses into either mental or somatic, that's the term we are stuck with. The argument for declassifying it isn't so much the "mental" part, but that it is considered a "disorder", and not just a state of being that happens to require medical and/or surgical assistance. There is stigma attached to being on a list of things, that are normally things we try to "fix" or "cure". It also sends a signal to doctors about how to approach giving these people healthcare. The arguments are similar to when homosexualism was removed from the same list. GhostBoy fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jun 1, 2016 |
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Jun 1, 2016 21:35
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Guavanaut posted:(I think it's Denmark that does that, definitely one of the Scandinavian countries.) Well...  I'm under the impression that Norway is removing the requirement soon, or is at least working on it. Finland on the other hand is doing jack poo poo. 
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Jun 1, 2016 22:17
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What in the gently caress
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Jun 2, 2016 00:35
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I think if you look at a map of US states it's about the same percentage actually, at least for state-level non-driver ID stuff. The federal stuff here is pretty good now though. (I'm not including Russia because... lol yeah.) Some of those states that are marked as being good actually require surgury/sterilization to specifically change birth certificates too, like Pennsylvania. quote:http://www.transequality.org/documents/state/pennsylvania Mercury_Storm fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Jun 2, 2016 |
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Jun 2, 2016 02:00
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GhostBoy posted:From what I can gather, the danish system mirrors the WHO system, which apparently called ICD 10 . They will remove the code DF640 (transsexualism) from the list of mental illnesses. So it's the danish version of the WHO's F64.0 code that is being declassified (the danish codes mean exactly the same as WHO's, but are for whatever reason just with an added 'D' and without the point between the second and third number). Yeah figured it wasn't certain yet since I haven't seen it reported anywhere. I know NZ uses ICD-10AU in hospitals, even though the mental health system (or at least the doctors I dealt with) use the DSM-V.
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Jun 2, 2016 02:07
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Mercury_Storm posted:I think if you look at a map of US states it's about the same percentage actually, at least for state-level non-driver ID stuff. The federal stuff here is pretty good now though. (I'm not including Russia because... lol yeah.) It's more complicated than that, because in some there's standing precedent that say, getting a boob job in either direction also counts, or it's just "proper medical treatment" that was clearly intended to mean surgery but a doctor can easily make hormone therapy sound correct for that. And so on.
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Jun 2, 2016 02:17
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I've heard of people being able to just walk into a Social Security office and change their info without a letter of any kind along with their name change (before the policy was changed recently to make it easier by just requiring a generic "has completed transition" letter from a doctor), but they just got lucky. Having to get lucky, start a lawsuit, etc, for such an important process is still pretty garbage, but a bit better than having it specifically say you must be sterilized imo.
Mercury_Storm fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jun 2, 2016 |
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Jun 2, 2016 02:23
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Speaking of Pennsylvania that is where the lawsuit over transgender exclusion in the ADA is occurring right now. I've brought it up in the last thread ,but again there's a area of intersectional disability rights that deals specifically with persons who are transgender. The ADA does not afford protections to persons who are transgender ,but there is a federal lawsuit in the works right now regarding this because of the antiquated language in the ADA. http://www.glad.org/current/item/court-hears-argument-on-transgender-exclusion-in-americans-with-disabilitie Most recent Story http://www.thelegalintelligencer.com/id=1202757922585/In-Birth-Certificate-Suit-ADAs-Transgender-Rule-Again-at-Issue?slreturn=20160501213215 Sorry for the pay wall. The case is Blatt v. Cabela’s Retail I have no read any new updates regarding this but this case is right now probably one of the more important LGBT rights cases going on right now. Simply because depending on what the ruling is there is a chance that the exclusion would be removed. If that would be the case then you'd see huge benefits to persons who are transgender. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jun 2, 2016 |
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Jun 2, 2016 02:33
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mandatory lesbian posted:i don't see how it isn't a mental disorder, most of the effects are mental, except for the people who get literally sick cause of dysphoria This leads be to a question I've been wondering about for a while but wasn't sure where to ask/if it would be offensive. If it is, just tell me and I'll retract it, but, for those here who ate trans and are comfortable talking about it: If there was a safe, reliable chemical (meaning brain chemistry) treatment for gender dysphagia that would make you comfortable with the physical sex you were born with, would that be something you'd entertain using? Or is the condition one that you can only see being solved through physical reassignment?
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Jun 6, 2016 19:46
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Keeshhound posted:If there was a safe, reliable chemical (meaning brain chemistry) treatment for gender dysphagia that would make you comfortable with the physical sex you were born with, would that be something you'd entertain using? Nope, for a couple reasons for me personally I guess. One is that I just wouldn't be very good on the idea of "Shoot me up with some poo poo to really twist my brain up" and the other is that I'd pretty likely hate the stuff itself if it existed, because boy would that be a sickeningly misused/cheered on breakthrough knowing people.
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Jun 6, 2016 20:02
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You could similarly phrase the question as "what if gay conversion therapy worked" and get a similar answer.
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