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Keeshhound posted:This leads be to a question I've been wondering about for a while but wasn't sure where to ask/if it would be offensive. If it is, just tell me and I'll retract it, but, for those here who ate trans and are comfortable talking about it: Different people may give you different answers, but for me, my mind isn't the problem, my anatomy is. This is kind of a dumb example but you can think of it as treating someone with a missing limb by asking them if they would want to be given a drug that would make them totally not care about missing a limb. OwlFancier posted:You could similarly phrase the question as "what if gay conversion therapy worked" and get a similar answer. Also this. The difference is that gay acceptance is still ahead of transgender acceptance; if you were asking this question in the 60s it would seem more sensible and you would get different responses from gay people than if you were asking it today. Also given what we know it's just as much of a fantasy as functioning conversion therapy.
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Jun 6, 2016 20:51
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Keeshhound posted:
This is the most cishet thing I've seen posted in this thread so far, congratulations! The problem with thought experiments like this is that they completely gloss over communities, histories, and cultures of groups they're directed for, in favor of theoretically "normalizing" them, when the biggest problems are social. We used to hear the same "if you could take a pill would you" thing all the time about sexual attraction. IMO it's kind of hosed up that over over we ask minorities if they'd like to give up major parts of their lives so that they can be "normal". In practice, even if such a theoretical solution were available, that they'd be controversial, expensive, and difficult decisions to make. The Deaf community actively struggles with this, for instance. Coclear implants are to some degree effective in children, but hearing parents may then have a tendency to focus their attention on "curing/have cured" their child's deafness, ignoring other entire modalities of life, and the differences in experience their child may have. As a result, these kids are not exposed to other potentially helpful means of navigating the world, or perhaps not able to form bonds with other members of their community at all. Moreover, an emphasis on "curing" deafnessserves serves to isolate further pre-lingually deaf people, and others on whom these treatments are less effective or ineffective. Obviously, you're talking in some kind of bullshit perfect hypothetical, but come on. We know how this would work out. At the first sign of deviance, we search to erase it, and ignore the fallout that comes from said repression. You can look to surgical assignment of intersex infants as a case study of what goes wrong when we attempt to normalize bodies and minds as a matter of course. LGBT people, (and trans people in particular) are actively fighting to survive in society right now, and I hope that it makes sense that you might face some resistance to the suggestion that they might be annihilated to "fix" them Octatonic fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jun 6, 2016 |
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Jun 6, 2016 21:00
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Octatonic posted:This is the most cishet thing I've seen posted in this thread so far, congratulations! I can own that, but to clarify; the reason I asked is that people say that gender dysphoria is a mental disorder a lot, and I can see the reasons for that, but it never really felt right to me as a classification. The responses I've gotten so far confirm that; if it really is just a disorder, then like depression you'd expect to be able to alleviate it somewhat by treating an underlying cause. That people reject the idea of "antidysphoria" drugs implies to me that calling it a mental disorder is too shallow a reading of the problem, and that it probably gives people the wrong idea about trans issues as a whole.
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Jun 6, 2016 21:08
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Keeshhound posted:I can own that, but to clarify; the reason I asked is that people say that gender dysphoria is a mental disorder a lot, and I can see the reasons for that, but it never really felt right to me as a classification. The responses I've gotten so far confirm that; if it really is just a disorder, then like depression you'd expect to be able to alleviate it somewhat by treating an underlying cause. That people reject the idea of "antidysphoria" drugs implies to me that calling it a mental disorder is too shallow a reading of the problem, and that it probably gives people the wrong idea about trans issues as a whole. Don't take this the wrong way but what exactly are you trying to say? It seems like your question was just a lead-in to some theory or point you have so, what is it? Also, are you familiar with the revisions to the DSM V? The work group for the revision of "Gender Identity Disorder" into "Gender Dysphoria" concluded: "There was consensus that a transgender identity is not pathology. Gender variant individuals are not inherently disordered; rather, the distress of gender dysphoria is the psychological problem." The APA statement on gender dysphoria is revealing: quote:Persons experiencing gender dysphoria need a diagnostic term that protects their access to care and won’t be used against them in social, occupational, or legal areas. When it comes to access to care, many of the treatment options for this condition include counsel-ing, cross-sex hormones, gender reassignment surgery, and social and legal transition to the desired gender. To get insurance coverage for the medical treatments, individuals need a diagnosis. The Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders Work Group was concerned that removing the condition as a psychiatric diagnosis—as some had suggested—would jeopardize access to care. Part of removing stigma is about choosing the right words. Replacing “disorder” with “dysphoria” in the diagnostic label is not only more appropriate and consistent with familiar clinical sexology terminology, it also removes the connotation that the patient is “disordered.” Ultimately, the changes regarding gender dysphoria in DSM-5 respect the individuals identified by offering a diagnostic name that is more appropriate to the symptoms and behaviors they experience without jeopardizing their access to effective treatment options. http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf Also Octatonic you are right on.
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Jun 6, 2016 21:41
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Keeshhound posted:I can own that, but to clarify; the reason I asked is that people say that gender dysphoria is a mental disorder a lot, and I can see the reasons for that, but it never really felt right to me as a classification. The responses I've gotten so far confirm that; if it really is just a disorder, then like depression you'd expect to be able to alleviate it somewhat by treating an underlying cause. That people reject the idea of "antidysphoria" drugs implies to me that calling it a mental disorder is too shallow a reading of the problem, and that it probably gives people the wrong idea about trans issues as a whole. I'd say your on the right track about this, but I'd like to reemphasize that regardless of the "how" or "what" of transness and queerness, one of the more exhausting struggles is the constant demand that you validate and justify your own existence to those around you. Like, consider giving a thought about what phrasing the question "what if they could fix you" rather than "how would you classify your experiences" (since that was the question that actually interests you) says about your own ideology. e: sharkie beat me to the punch. I'm not trying to dogpile or fuckbarrel no one 
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Jun 6, 2016 21:42
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Sharkie posted:Don't take this the wrong way but what exactly are you trying to say? Sorry, I was really just trying to get a better grasp on the issue beyond "some people are intentionally assholes to people who don't deserve it," and wound up unintentionally being one of those assholes. Octatonic posted:I'd say your on the right track about this, but I'd like to reemphasize that regardless of the "how" or "what" of transness and queerness, one of the more exhausting struggles is the constant demand that you validate and justify your own existence to those around you. Now that you've pointed it out, yeah I can see how that question just adds more poo poo to a person's day. If anyone wants me to remove it, I will; right now I'm just leaving it so the conversation isn't confusing for someone reading it after the fact.
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Jun 6, 2016 22:20
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Keeshhound posted:Sorry, I was really just trying to get a better grasp on the issue beyond "some people are intentionally assholes to people who don't deserve it," and wound up unintentionally being one of those assholes. I didn't think you were trying to be an rear end in a top hat, it's just that the question you led with is often a roundabout way of getting into "why don't we 'fix' transgender people so they don't exist any more," with a side of "well science will stop transgender people from existing any day now so let's not get in a hurry to afford them rights or dignity." Now I don't think you were doing that at all, it's just that well, that's often the implication so you can see how it's going to raise some eyebrows.
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Jun 6, 2016 22:42
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Not trans, but as a bisexual, if you were able to get rid of any aspect of my sexuality I'd hate you forever. I suspect a similar response from trans* people when it comes to the stuff that's important to them.
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Jun 6, 2016 23:23
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metalloid posted:Not trans, but as a bisexual, if you were able to get rid of any aspect of my sexuality I'd hate you forever. I suspect a similar response from trans* people when it comes to the stuff that's important to them. It's a bit different, at least for me. Coming out and transitioning sucked, and even though I think it has and continues to get better, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It would be nice to simply skip the whole transition and get on with my life. So maybe I can rephrase metalloid's comment a bit: if you were able to get rid of any aspect of my gender identity I'd hate you forever, but anything you can do to make the transition less painful helps immensely.
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Jun 6, 2016 23:53
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Sharkie posted:Now I don't think you were doing that at all, it's just that well, that's often the implication so you can see how it's going to raise some eyebrows. Looking at how I phrased my question, even divorced from the baggage of those attitudes it still has a gross undertone of "justify yourselves to me, transpeople." If I was doing it over, I'd try to phrase it to be more "please help me understand what it's like to deal with these issues from your viewpoint." That said, I think I do have a better understanding now; I'd been thinking of it as a disparity between brain and body, rather than one between personality (or maybe soul, for lack of a word with a less religious tone?) and body. metalloid posted:Not trans, but as a bisexual, if you were able to get rid of any aspect of my sexuality I'd hate you forever. I suspect a similar response from trans* people when it comes to the stuff that's important to them. This goes back to me doing an utterly piss-poor job of articulating my question, but I absolutely did not want that to sound like me or anyone else making the decision for a trans (or gay, or bisexual) person. I'm cis, but my sexuality cleaves fairly close to asexual; for me the idea of a person being able to alter elements their personality and sexuality (albeit temporarily, now that I've got a better idea how fundamental it is to most peoples' identities) isn't any more horrifying than other means of altering consciousness. That's in the context of someone consenting for their own reasons, though. Government control of that sort of thing is the stuff of dystopian nightmares. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 00:14
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metalloid posted:Not trans, but as a bisexual, if you were able to get rid of any aspect of my sexuality I'd hate you forever. I suspect a similar response from trans* people when it comes to the stuff that's important to them. I'd consider erasing my infrequent attraction to men just as a matter of personal convenience.  There was only one case where "dating a boy would be inconvenient to my carčer" has even come up in the evaluation, though.I also find the concept of being attracted to only one gender puzzling at a gut level, so maybe it is actually an important part of my self image. Also having it imposed or even actively pressured would be a very, very different animal.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:35
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I remember someone once asked me if I could take a pill to make me straight would I take it. For the longest time I would say yes but then I thought about it and realized I only felt that way because society treats LGBT people like poo poo. So now I say gently caress that noise because I like who I am. Society needs to change, not trans people. So this whole medication conversation is a nonstarter.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:51
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A pill that would erase sexuality completely would be interesting, not 'turn someone straight/gay/whatever' but actually erase it, given how much of society builds itself around that. But so much of a person's self perception is tied into lived experiences that are resultant from their sexuality that unless you did it from birth you'd just create an even more unpleasant dysphoria. Like what famously happened with Alan Turing. So I don't think such a pill would even be possible without horrific side effects unless it completely changed a person's past self image or sedated them beyond caring, both of which could also be horrific. I'd imagine the same thing holds for gender. e: Interesting as in it's something I'd consider moreso than one that turns you whatever the majority of society or its loudest assholes considers 'normal'. Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 00:58
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:I remember someone once asked me if I could take a pill to make me straight would I take it. For the longest time I would say yes but then I thought about it and realized I only felt that way because society treats LGBT people like poo poo. So now I say gently caress that noise because I like who I am. This is what I meant. I like who I am, and I like my sexuality. If you offered me a pill to make me 100% straight and let me make the choice I'd choose to flush that pill down the toilet. edit: I honestly do think society will eventually catch up. to me, to trans people, and to everyone under the QUILTBAG umbrella (bag?) german porn enthusiast fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 01:51
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I feel privileged that I've not encountered the insanity of Milo Yiannopoulos till now. I didn't even know who he was until this whole DePaul thing.
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Jun 7, 2016 05:09
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:I remember someone once asked me if I could take a pill to make me straight would I take it. For the longest time I would say yes but then I thought about it and realized I only felt that way because society treats LGBT people like poo poo. So now I say gently caress that noise because I like who I am. Pretty much the path I took on these kinda questions. When you realize 'wait I'm saying yes not because I dislike being gay, but because I dislike how others treat me because of being gay' that's a pretty big 'well gently caress' moment that makes you examine some things.
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Jun 7, 2016 05:46
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http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/ericrosswood/supergirl_actor_s_cousin_sent_to_ex_gay_therapyquote:Jeremy Jordan, who plays Winn Schott on CBS' Supergirl, has turned to social media in an effort to rescue his cousin from being trapped in an ex-gay conversion therapy center.
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Jun 7, 2016 23:13
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Saw that story and spent an hour fantasizing about a midnight drag queen commando raid on the facility.   What new dystopic hells hidden away inside America will I discover tomorrow? Truly every day in the USA is an adventure. 
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Jun 7, 2016 23:18
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If there was any justice, every one of those hellholes would be firebombed with the people running them locked inside. I have a couple friends, guys and girls both, that had first-hand experiences with them and after the things they talked about, there's not a drop of exaggeration in the pure hate of the above statement. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 23:22
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Combed Thunderclap posted:Saw that story and spent an hour fantasizing about a midnight drag queen commando raid on the facility.  Yardbomb posted:If there was any justice, every one of those hellholes would be firebombed with the people running them locked inside. Yes. I've had a couple as well, its as close to a modern Prison Camp complete with torture as you can get.
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Jun 7, 2016 23:22
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Keeshhound posted:I can own that, but to clarify; the reason I asked is that people say that gender dysphoria is a mental disorder a lot, and I can see the reasons for that, but it never really felt right to me as a classification. The responses I've gotten so far confirm that; if it really is just a disorder, then like depression you'd expect to be able to alleviate it somewhat by treating an underlying cause. That people reject the idea of "antidysphoria" drugs implies to me that calling it a mental disorder is too shallow a reading of the problem, and that it probably gives people the wrong idea about trans issues as a whole. Gender Dysphoria is a mental disorder, however it is inextricably linked to being transgendered, and having a gender identity which does not match your body is not a mental disorder, and is not the same thing as gender dysphoria. People reject the notion of treating the dysphoria with a pill because it ignores the accompanying aspects of gender identity. What you're suggesting reads about as easily as asking "what if we had a pill that gay people could take to cure homophobia." CommieGIR posted:Yes. I've had a couple as well, its as close to a modern Prison Camp complete with torture as you can get. Mm, I recall reading about a big set of "camps for troubled youths" or similar which were basically jesus crazy child abuse/molestation camps supported by a bunch of wealthy political types in the 80's/90's, so nice to see that we haven't stopped any of that yet. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 23:43
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CommieGIR posted:http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/ericrosswood/supergirl_actor_s_cousin_sent_to_ex_gay_therapy First GoFundMe I've given to.
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Jun 7, 2016 23:55
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CommieGIR posted:http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/ericrosswood/supergirl_actor_s_cousin_sent_to_ex_gay_therapy come on man just call Kara to save her and...oh right this is somehow a real thing that really happens to human beings in a developed country and not a plot from Supergirl, well gently caress the world I guess.
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Jun 8, 2016 06:01
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Tatum Girlparts posted:come on man just call Kara to save her and...oh right this is somehow a real thing that really happens to human beings in a developed country and not a plot from Supergirl, well gently caress the world I guess. I wish it was possible to request asylum from another state :/
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Jun 8, 2016 07:32
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Hey, it's not as bad as the ones that used to take kids out to Barbados and other Carribean and South American countries so they wouldn't be able to go anywhere if they tried to run. Exodus International was terrifying.
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Jun 8, 2016 07:47
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Here's another link regarding the situation http://www.chron.com/news/local/article/Texas-family-raising-money-to-bail-teen-out-of-7970406.php It really sucks and is terrible , but I can't also think of the other kids there being forced there by their parents. 
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Jun 8, 2016 23:46
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Yardbomb posted:If there was any justice, every one of those hellholes would be firebombed with the people running them locked inside. It's one of the few times South Park was 100% right. Jesus christ, that is depressing as hell.
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Jun 9, 2016 00:20
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http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovemen...no_longer_there Rumor is that Sarah has been released from the Pray Away the Gay Camp.
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Jun 9, 2016 22:18
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Looks like transphobes may be resorting to literal domestic terrorism because trans people having a poo poo invades their precious safe space.
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Jun 9, 2016 22:23
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Good thing nobody was hurt. Shame it was a woman that did it though, there would be no  big enough if it was a man who went into the women's bathroom to commit a transphobic crime over fears that men would use Target's decision as an excuse to enter women's bathrooms and commit crimes.Has Julie Bindel been on holiday lately?
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Jun 9, 2016 22:53
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I think she's too busy gawking at the genitalia of trans kids in newsreels. Taking after Germaine "I wrote a book about how shirtless teenage boys make me wet" Greer, I think.
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Jun 9, 2016 22:58
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Any additional news on the young woman and whether these assholes at Heartland are not just lying about her not being there. Edit: Also, does anyone know if there have been any lawsuits against these places when they turn of legal aid and in turn whether they were successful? Like the plaintiff was in them when of age but continues to suffer from problems as a adult?
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Jun 10, 2016 00:16
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CommieGIR posted:http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovemen...no_longer_there Oh, is that why they wouldn't accept my donation last night? I was gonna ask if anyone else had that problem, but I guess that would explain it.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:50
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I wished they'd change it to a Gofundme to hire people to burn that place to the ground.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:51
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Hollismason posted:I wished they'd change it to a Gofundme to hire people to burn that place to the ground. You don't need gofundme to buy $200 of gasoline and a matchbook.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:58
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The stories I am reading is that she is with her parents now. Can't wait for that media shitstorm when she comes out and is like " Yeah, I was sent there because I was gay".
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Jun 10, 2016 03:08
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Hollismason posted:I wished they'd change it to a Gofundme to hire people to burn that place to the ground. What, to give the leaders of the camp martyrdom? They will fundraise the poo poo out of their camp being burnt to the ground, and they should already be insured for millions. Burning down the camp lets them rebuild bigger and better.
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Jun 10, 2016 04:38
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Maybe then it could purchase some drones to drop off care packages or something. Their "therapy" in those camps is usually outdoor labor.
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Jun 10, 2016 05:15
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Is there a non-profit that wants to lobby these things into non-existence that I could donate to?
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Jun 10, 2016 16:09
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Ratoslov posted:Is there a non-profit that wants to lobby these things into non-existence that I could donate to? APA has basically classified these sort of camps as torture. I know they are actively opposed to them.
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Jun 10, 2016 16:12
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