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ImpAtom posted:Because he picked up the pen and was still hesitating and the second he heard something he disliked he changed his mind in a moment while angrily telling Tony off without making a single argument beyond 'that's wrong.' He was tempted but proved he wasn't actually willing. Well yeah, that's why it's compromising. It's making concessions to what you actually want to reach an agreement. Nobody is ever loving happy about it, or it wouldn't be a compromise. And you say "something he disliked" like it wasn't illegally detaining one of their friends. Like it was just some minor little thing. Face it. He was willing to compromise with the situation until new information came up. He thought it was wrong, but he was willing to sit down and make changes until it was something everyone was happy with until he heard they were locking up his friends.
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May 6, 2016 22:16
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SonicRulez posted:I feel like Cap's point of contention even before Wanda was that Tony's side refused to ask any questions. You said that "What if we have to do bad things or what if we aren't allowed to do good things" is weak, but at least it's a start. It's better than diving in head first because you can see that not doing so will be a fight. The movie then goes to show why Cap is right in that regard. Not asking any questions about the motives involved is what allowed Zemo into Bucky's cell to reactivate his Winter Soldier programming and cause him to kill more people. They just captured him and hand delivered him to be interrogated by some guy because some government officials said so. Sure in the real world that's how things work, but Steve was right to wonder why Tony couldn't be bothered to try and reason. They were given the Sokovia Accords and half of the team just said "Alright, whatever". That's lazy. Cap didn't try to reason at all. He just kept going "I see things going south" or other vague comments without offering any suggestions beyond the fact that the doesn't trust other people. It's not actually a start because Cap had no plans for Bucky and even after rescuing him the end result was... putting Bucky in frozen carbonite because he was too big a danger to others around him. So apparently he's perfectly fine with locking someone up for being a danger as long as it is him doing it. Wanda even was content to stay inside when it was explained to her until Clint specifically came, broke her out and insisted she come with him. Boogaleeboo posted:Well yeah, that's why it's compromising. It's making concessions to what you actually want to reach an agreement. Nobody is ever loving happy about it, or it wouldn't be a compromise. And you say "something he disliked" like it wasn't illegally detaining one of their friends. Like it was just some minor little thing. Face it. He was willing to compromise with the situation until new information came up. He thought it was wrong, but he was willing to sit down and make changes until it was something everyone was happy with until he heard they were locking up his friends. Right, and what is the other solution? Captain America took an untrained Scarlet Witch on missions and it killed a dozen people because she wasn't prepared for it and because he himself hosed up when he got Bucky thrown in his face. He has no solution, just "no, don't do that," even after he hosed up tremendously. That isn't a compromise. And Cap is clearly okay with people being locked up as long as it is under his specifications or he'd not have been okay with the end of the film. So if Tony had asked Wanda and she'd agreed to it then presumably there would have been no issue but Cap didn't even bother to check that. It is his way or the highway. "No, you move" as the film puts it. Tony was absolutely wrong for doing it without telling Wanda, that isn't up for debate, but Cap's solution is just "no, you're wrong, Imma do it my way." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:29 on May 6, 2016 |
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May 6, 2016 22:19
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Saw it and thought it was great. Ending was nowhere near the cop-out I'd been led to believe. A lot of the early comments from goons implied something along the lines of Zemo being an anime-level puppetmaster who orchestrated everything and Cap being completely right, but that's really not true at all. Zemo's only plan was to find/create dirt on Bucky, the Wakandans weren't part of the plan at all (although Rumlow arguably might have been), and the big action setpiece was just an unexpected pleasant side effect. The accords were legit, none of the conflict was manufactured the way the early comments made me think, and I'm pretty sure Zemo was initially just expecting to get Cap and Tony into a fight, not even expecting an actual physical fight let alone a huge battle at the airport.
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May 6, 2016 22:25
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Cap didn't reason, but that was his idea. He went to Stark first for support. To his surprise, Tony (and his two best buddies) were already 100% in. At that point it was becoming a law and there was a "get with it or get out" kind of thing being declared. It didn't matter if Cap had a solid plan or not, he was not being listened to. Ross made that crystal clear when he ignored the evidence that Bucky was innocent. Cap's plan wasn't to put Bucky back on ice, it was Bucky's idea. Cap's entire deal was that he wanted him and all of the other heroes to have a choice. He said that many times. If Bucky had told him that he wanted the government to capture and confine him to prison then I have to imagine Cap would've let that happen as well. It's not just that Cap has some kind of leader-complex and wants to be in charge of it all. His ego is definitely part of things, but he ultimately believes that he and his friends are all good people and should therefore have the choice in what they do. He believes this because he feels like they will always choose the right thing. That's naive, but it isn't really wrong. Also Wanda was most certainly not content to stay inside. It was made clear that Vision was forcefully keeping her at the bunker (as gently as possible) and Wanda wasn't willing to fight him to leave. Content is just a really poor word. To her it appeared that her options were fight The Vision and escape to nowhere since she had no idea where Cap was or even which Avengers were on her side or sit and wait. She sat and waited. Luckily for her, one of the Avengers that was on her side came and gave her a place to escape to and she took it at the first opportunity. No part of the movie makes it seem like she's okay with being confined. Quite the opposite in fact since a lot of her life has had her behind some kind of glass wall.
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May 6, 2016 22:31
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I hope Wolverine 3 isn't Old Man Logan but it probably will be.
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May 6, 2016 22:32
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ImpAtom posted:Right, and what is the other solution? Who cares? It's like if you told me you had a plan to solve the deficit and it involved raping nuns and orphans: The counter to me telling you that's insane isn't "Yeah, but what's your idea?". You are wrong, your wrongness is an intrinsic quality that in no way requires my having a better idea in that moment. Tony is wrong, the UN is wrong, and their idea was never workable. The fact Cap doesn't have a better idea doesn't change that. All he did was save them time. Now they know a bunch of people that were never going to listen to them won't listen to them. Now, whatever they do next, at least it'll be more realistic a solution. quote:Captain America took an untrained Scarlet Witch on missions and it killed a dozen people because she wasn't prepared for it and because he himself hosed up when he got Bucky thrown in his face. Nah, that's bullshit. He took her on missions because that's how you train people, and he gives himself poo poo in an unrealistic manner. Just because he says he's wrong doesn't make him wrong, a suicide vest set off drat near instantly isn't something he has much of a way to ever figure out. It's not something most people go for. Neither of them are in the wrong. It was a lovely situation they handled the best way possible. If Wanda wasn't there, they probably get away with the biological weapon in the first place. quote:So if Tony had asked Wanda and she'd agreed to it then presumably there would have been no issue but Cap didn't even bother to check that. It is his way or the highway. "No, you move" as the film puts it. Are you writing fan fiction to justify your beliefs now?
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May 6, 2016 22:40
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SonicRulez posted:Cap didn't reason, but that was his idea. He went to Stark first for support. To his surprise, Tony (and his two best buddies) were already 100% in. At that point it was becoming a law and there was a "get with it or get out" kind of thing being declared. It didn't matter if Cap had a solid plan or not, he was not being listened to. Ross made that crystal clear when he ignored the evidence that Bucky was innocent. Cap's plan wasn't to put Bucky back on ice, it was Bucky's idea. Cap's entire deal was that he wanted him and all of the other heroes to have a choice. He said that many times. If Bucky had told him that he wanted the government to capture and confine him to prison then I have to imagine Cap would've let that happen as well. It's not just that Cap has some kind of leader-complex and wants to be in charge of it all. His ego is definitely part of things, but he ultimately believes that he and his friends are all good people and should therefore have the choice in what they do. He believes this because he feels like they will always choose the right thing. That's naive, but it isn't really wrong. Captain America absolutely has a leader complex and doesn't believe the laws apply to him. Like that isn't even up for debate. You can argue that he's justified or not but it doesn't really matter because as long as Captain America believes he's justified than the laws don't apply to him and he has the power to enforce that. We see it at the end of the film where he breaks into the Raft to free the other Avengers. As long as he believes it then everyone else can go to hell. I mean The Raft is interesting because at first blush it looks terrible. It's an underwater supermax prison. Except as we see at the end of the film isn't enough. Captain America is able to break in and free a group of superpowered individuals. So what if it had been a supervillain? The only reason it's 'good' is because it is Captain America but he doesn't think about how that applies to anyone else. His friends angrily grumble about being arrested and imprisoned but they openly and knowingly broke the law and at least one of them is extremely superpowered. What precisely are they supposed to do with them? Let them go? Tony even brings it up and they just get angry that he dared to arrest them for breaking the law. Captain America is a good person but he even admits that he puts a lot of emphasis on the people he trusts and considers that more meaningful than anything else. Tony on the other hand is well aware that even people he trusts can gently caress up and make mistakes and that has consequences. Neither side is entirely correct. Boogaleeboo posted:Who cares? It's like if you told me you had a plan to solve the deficit and it involved raping nuns and orphans: The counter to me telling you that's insane isn't "Yeah, but what's your idea?". You are wrong, your wrongness is an intrinsic quality that in no way requires my having a better idea in that moment. Tony is wrong, the UN is wrong, and their idea was never workable. The fact Cap doesn't have a better idea doesn't change that. All he did was save them time. Now they know a bunch of people that were never going to listen to them won't listen to them. Now, whatever they do next, at least it'll be more realistic a solution. Except that isn't what the Accords involved at all? Like there's no point in the film where the Accords are Secretly Evil. Claiming that it is on par with raping nuns is frigging ridiculous because there's nothing in the film to suggest that. Edit: The ending of the film is Cap sending Tony a letter that is apologizing, suggesting that they're both doing what they think is right, and Cap saying he'll be there if Tony needs him. I'm pretty sure if the Accords were Evil Puppy Raping then Cap wouldn't be offering that. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:50 on May 6, 2016 |
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May 6, 2016 22:42
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No need to get nasty over different interpretations of the comic book movie, dude. What about the Accords is even remotely equivalent to "raping nuns and orphans"?
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May 6, 2016 22:45
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So, to follow your own logic... what's your answer to the prison issue? Cuz I guarantee Thunderbolt Ross wasn't going on CNN and sharing the conditions at the Raft. Is Wanda in a straitjacket until she dies of old age? That's a heck of a 'solution'. And we know for a fact the Avengers weren't given a trial and at no point is one mentioned, so we're back to 'detained without trial in supertech gulag' from the comic. Plus you're being deliberately obtuse with Bucky going on ice at the end, considering that's clearly Bucky's decision, not even something T'Challa or Steve suggest, but Bucky himself choosing. That's different than assigning the creepy robot-man to basically be an abusive boyfriend to the teenage girl, and then going "B-but it's a GILDED cage!"
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May 6, 2016 22:49
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Gaz-L posted:So, to follow your own logic... what's your answer to the prison issue? Cuz I guarantee Thunderbolt Ross wasn't going on CNN and sharing the conditions at the Raft. Is Wanda in a straitjacket until she dies of old age? That's a heck of a 'solution'. And we know for a fact the Avengers weren't given a trial and at no point is one mentioned, so we're back to 'detained without trial in supertech gulag' from the comic. We also don't see Bucky or Zemo get trials so I guess they were locked away without trial too. That's a really weird argument considering the time between arrest and Tony's visit has to be less than a day considering it happens while Steve and Bucky are still in flight. We don't actually know what the end result of the Raft situation is because the film doesn't go into it but I'm somehow doubting Wakanda, Black Widow or MCU Iron Man was going to sign on for Eternal Imprisonment Without Trial. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:59 on May 6, 2016 |
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May 6, 2016 22:54
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Something else I liked is that it seems that they're leaning movie Hawkeye more towards comic Hawkeye at least in personality. Much more of the brash loudmouth semi-fuckup Hawkguy.ImpAtom posted:Captain America took an untrained Scarlet Witch on missions and it killed a dozen people because she wasn't prepared for it Like Cap said to her, things are going to go wrong in combat situations, and some of it is going to be directly your own faults (keeping in mind that, yeah, some of it in this situation was directly Cap's fault), but the alternative is just that no one gets saved and everyone gets hurt. And it's dubious how the Accords would actually change that. If the U.N. are now the ones sending superhumans like Wanda into combat situations, does that mean she's just automatically gonna do all the right things in all the right situations 100% of the time?
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May 6, 2016 22:58
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ImpAtom posted:Captain America absolutely has a leader complex and doesn't believe the laws apply to him. Like that isn't even up for debate. You can argue that he's justified or not but it doesn't really matter because as long as Captain America believes he's justified than the laws don't apply to him and he has the power to enforce that. We see it at the end of the film where he breaks into the Raft to free the other Avengers. As long as he believes it then everyone else can go to hell. Cap's whole point of contention is that the law was flawed and they weren't going to do anything about that. At least not until after it had become a law and they all conformed to it for some undefined period of time. Cap wanted to bring Bucky in alive rather than dead. That's neither illegal nor particularly wrong. Steve's mates knew they broke the law and knew they'd end up in jail. They were pissed that it was an underwater supermax. None of them deserved that. The only one who had the ability to do anything without their tech was wearing a power inhibitor. Which apparently they have and can attach without any fight. They could have just as easily put them in a regular rear end jail cell. It was a power play on Ross' part to put them in The Raft.
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May 6, 2016 22:59
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ImpAtom posted:Except that isn't what the Accords involved at all? Like there's no point in the film where the Accords are Secretly Evil. Claiming that it is on par with raping nuns is frigging ridiculous because there's nothing in the film to suggest that. .......morality was never an issue raised, sanity was. The Accords are a bunch of politicians telling a group, whose defining moment was ignoring the orders of a bunch of politicians in order to save New York by the way, that it'd be a good idea if they listen to politicians. This is not a viable solution to anything.
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May 6, 2016 23:08
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BrianWilly posted:Something else I liked is that it seems that they're leaning movie Hawkeye more towards comic Hawkeye at least in personality. Much more of the brash loudmouth semi-fuckup Hawkguy. Yeah, and Renner's really fun with it, too. "THE FUTURIST EVERYONE! HE KNOWS ALL!  "
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May 6, 2016 23:10
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Boogaleeboo posted:.......morality was never an issue raised, sanity was. The Accords are a bunch of politicians telling a group, whose defining moment was ignoring the orders of a bunch of politicians in order to save New York by the way, that it'd be a good idea if they listen to politicians. This is not a viable solution to anything.
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May 6, 2016 23:12
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SonicRulez posted:
Except as we saw they were a serious breakout risk. Wanda is the only one with powers but at least one of them is an expert thief, another is a former SHIELD covert ops agent and the third is an elite soldier. And we see them get rescued at the end of the film from the "power play' Raft by a single person. I'm pretty sure they can't just stick them in a holding cell down at the precinct or whatever, especially considering it has been less than a day. Boogaleeboo posted:.......morality was never an issue raised, sanity was. The Accords are a bunch of politicians telling a group, whose defining moment was ignoring the orders of a bunch of politicians in order to save New York by the way, that it'd be a good idea if they listen to politicians. This is not a viable solution to anything. "Politicians never solve anything! It can only be solved when great men take actions into their own hands" is not only a gross Randian idea it is one that CW has potential Raidan Superman Tony Stark reject and point out as flawed and damaging and admitting that he himself has trouble sticking with that. It's the only thing that keeps the film from being absolutely disgusting to watch. (And even then it trends that way with Tony allowing his friends to skirt around the law whenever possible.)
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May 6, 2016 23:17
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BrianWilly posted:On the other hand...if they don't answer to politicians then who do they answer to? What comprises their oversight? Are there any oversights for the Avengers? Do they seriously have no oversight at all? That's insane as well. Dr. Manhattan or maybe Ozymandias.
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May 6, 2016 23:17
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It's good to see they are being faithful to the comic Civil War in one aspect at least.
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May 6, 2016 23:17
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BrianWilly posted:On the other hand...if they don't answer to politicians then who do they answer to? What comprises their oversight? Are there any oversights for the Avengers? Do they seriously have no oversight at all? That's insane as well. Sure. It's a lovely world with no great answers. You can listen to the politicians, and maybe they try to nuke New York or turn out to be actual Nazis building an orbiting death fortress. Or you can just let exceptional people do whatever the gently caress they want, and maybe they build a killer robot with an orbiting death fortress. Either way you are probably going to die when a falling building lands on your head. e: ImpAtom posted:"Politicians never solve anything! It can only be solved when great men take actions into their own hands" There was no solution. That's the drama of it. Once it got to the point it did, Helmut or no, it was never having a happy ending. The basis of the Avengers is exceptional people stepping outside the status quo to solve an esoteric, world threatening problem. The basis of Avengers 2 is those same people stepping outside the status quo to cause an esoteric, world threatening problem. How do you make those two points coincide into a functioning world view? You don't. The policy that prevents Avengers 2 destroys New York in Avengers 1. Does that suck? Yes. Tough, for everyone involved. Mulva fucked around with this message at 23:23 on May 6, 2016 |
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May 6, 2016 23:18
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With Rhodey saying at the end that despite everything he still thinks signing the accords was the right thing to do and Steve's letter outright saying that as long as Tony sincerely thought the accords were the best option he was right for signing it, I think we're supposed to think both Cap and Iron Man were "right" or at least not wrong about their positions. Like, I think it's wrong to think the accords were 100% the wrong decision (even though the whole thing with the raft was lovely of them. But i was never clear if that was mostly Ross' idea rather than the assembly) or that Cap was 100% unreasonable. It's mostly the things surrounding the accords that people make bad decisions on. Tony probs should not have kept Wanda on house arrest without even telling her that was happening. And before this all happened Cap probably should have told Tony about his parent's deaths. And that in general both sides should have been more willing to talk this out and listen to each other, with that being more on Tony since he didn't trust Cap about Bucky. But Cap himself didn't even bother to try and sort things out with the pro-reg side until they showed up and told him to stand down. Basically though. all the Avengers end up seeming more "right" to me than Cap and Tony. Who are the main people who personally make bad decisions that end up affecting everyone throughout. Edit: Their bad decisions make sense for them though. And they remain generally sympathetic which is neat.
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May 6, 2016 23:18
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ImpAtom posted:Except as we saw they were a serious breakout risk. Wanda is the only one with powers but at least one of them is an expert thief, another is a former SHIELD covert ops agent and the third is an elite soldier. And we see them get rescued at the end of the film from the "power play' Raft by a single person. I'm pretty sure they can't just stick them in a holding cell down at the precinct or whatever, especially considering it has been less than a day. That would be fine if we didn't know these guys and had no context, but we do. They came in relatively peacefully. If they had put up a serious fight, they would not have been sitting in The Raft. At least Wanda if nobody else could've leveled the poo poo. They're the good guys though and they don't do that. The only risk to them escaping was if their Big Boss came for them. As it turned out, there wasn't anything they could do about that. Which is totally Tony's point and that's the part where I see his point. They can't live in a world where having super powers means you get to do whatever you want when it suits you. However, putting all those guys in a supermax prison underwater is not the solution to that problem. Clearly. Did you just kinda silently concede that Scarlet Witch thing?
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May 6, 2016 23:25
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I thought going in that the line from the trailer "He's my friend" "So was I" was going to be the big emotional punch in the final fight, but they actually used a different take where Tony doesn't sound sad about it but more pissed about it when he says it. The line "I don't care. He killed my Mom." was the real emotional punch during that fight. That was a rough one.
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May 6, 2016 23:46
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Civil War was a lot of fun, but my favourite part might have actually been Craig Pelton, Dean of MIT. I laughed really hard when he popped up and a few people around me looked at me like I was an idiot.
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May 6, 2016 23:52
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X-O posted:I thought going in that the line from the trailer "He's my friend" "So was I" was going to be the big emotional punch in the final fight, but they actually used a different take where Tony doesn't sound sad about it but more pissed about it when he says it. The line "I don't care. He killed my Mom." was the real emotional punch during that fight. That was a rough one. Aww, that line broke my heart. It was so human and so immediately sympathetic. In a complete 180, I think the biggest laugh in my theater was Falcon interacting with Bucky. "Can you move your seat up?" "No." *Bucky awkwardly shuffles over* *Cap makes out with Sharon* *Both of his mates start giving him the "Yeaaaaaaaah" face* Then later "You couldn't have done that earlier?" "I hate you."
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May 6, 2016 23:54
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X-O posted:I thought going in that the line from the trailer "He's my friend" "So was I" was going to be the big emotional punch in the final fight, but they actually used a different take where Tony doesn't sound sad about it but more pissed about it when he says it. The line "I don't care. He killed my Mom." was the real emotional punch during that fight. That was a rough one. The actual context is more like Cap saying "Please don't kill my friend" while Tony is saying "I don't give a poo poo." Tony isn't sad that Cap is choosing Bucky over him, he's simply so pissed that he no longer considers himself to be Cap's friend. It's kind of amazing.
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May 6, 2016 23:56
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SonicRulez posted:That would be fine if we didn't know these guys and had no context, but we do. They came in relatively peacefully. If they had put up a serious fight, they would not have been sitting in The Raft. At least Wanda if nobody else could've leveled the poo poo. They're the good guys though and they don't do that. The only risk to them escaping was if their Big Boss came for them. As it turned out, there wasn't anything they could do about that. Which is totally Tony's point and that's the part where I see his point. They can't live in a world where having super powers means you get to do whatever you want when it suits you. However, putting all those guys in a supermax prison underwater is not the solution to that problem. Clearly. They absolutely did not come in peacefully, they had a giant fight that leveled an airport and left someone crippled. The fact that nobody died doesn't mean it wasn't a serious fight, not in the least because nobody wanted someone to die. And are you seriously saying they wouldn't have tried to escape if the chance arose? Hell, they did escape when the chance arose. And no. It's another case of there being no actual answer but people jumping to 'it's wrong' anyway. Scarlet Witch is currently, according to the film, a tremendously feared weapon of mass destruction who is being blamed for the death of 12 civilians. Her not being allowed to go to the store for some paprika isn't as simple a matter as people like to argue and the fact that Captain America has no other solution is a pretty important point. "She's a teenage girl" ignores the opening of a film is Captain America using this same girl as a soldier in a battle against terrorists which I guess is totally okay? It's actually a complex issue which Captain America doesn't give a poo poo about. Tony should absolutely have talked to Wanda about it first and he's well in the wrong for that, but context goes both ways and the film provides a lot of context beyond "Tony was doing it for no reason." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:09 on May 7, 2016 |
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May 7, 2016 00:05
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Another thing is, that I went to a first showing so of course a ton of people were wearing Marvel related shirts and I saw the expected Spider-Man and Iron Man shirts and all but overwhelmingly more people were wearing shirts of Captain America. And yeah it was his name in the title, but I was kind of surprised by the sheer number of them. Like for every three comic shirts I saw I'd say two were Cap shirts. I guess I just didn't realize how much these movies have raised his profile in the minds of the fans.
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May 7, 2016 00:06
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X-O posted:I guess I just didn't realize how much these movies have raised his profile in the minds of the fans. Chris Evans has that kind of effect over people. 
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May 7, 2016 00:19
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There's a reason we went from Avengers 1 having RDJ front-and-centre on the poster, to AoU having him and Evans share the spot.
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May 7, 2016 00:41
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Tom Holland was amazing and his interactions with everybody else made me super excited for a Spider-Man movie. I loved the part during the big airport fight scene where he tried to read Falcon his rights.
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May 7, 2016 00:46
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ImpAtom posted:And no. It's another case of there being no actual answer but people jumping to 'it's wrong' anyway. Scarlet Witch is currently, according to the film, a tremendously feared weapon of mass destruction who is being blamed for the death of 12 civilians. Her not being allowed to go to the store for some paprika isn't as simple a matter as people like to argue and the fact that Captain America has no other solution is a pretty important point. "She's a teenage girl" ignores the opening of a film is Captain America using this same girl as a soldier in a battle against terrorists which I guess is totally okay? It's actually a complex issue which Captain America doesn't give a poo poo about. Not what I was on about. More your idea that Wanda was totally chill with her condition and Hawkeye showed up and strong armed her to leave. That's definitely not what happened in the slightest. Captain America gave a poo poo about the issue. He wanted a solution better than locking her away. Like they are constantly trying to do to Banner. Like they did with Bucky. Like they would eventually do with his other mates. The solution to super powered people in the MCU seems to be finding a deep enough hole and tossing them into it. You are harsh on Cap for not having ideas, but that's not really his job. Nor is it his point. He doesn't have to have a better idea in order to explain why the current one is bad. Tony had a reason for trying to keep Wanda away from the PR nightmare while he was trying to get all his friends pardoned. However, as you admitted, he went about it in a terrible way. Cap is helping her to get control of her powers. She's gotta do that in intense situations for it to work and since there's no Danger Room in this universe, he tried her in combat. Perhaps not the best tactic, but as you defended Iron Man with, what is the alternative?
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May 7, 2016 01:58
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SonicRulez posted:Not what I was on about. More your idea that Wanda was totally chill with her condition and Hawkeye showed up and strong armed her to leave. That's definitely not what happened in the slightest. Captain America gave a poo poo about the issue. He wanted a solution better than locking her away. Like they are constantly trying to do to Banner. Like they did with Bucky. Like they would eventually do with his other mates. The solution to super powered people in the MCU seems to be finding a deep enough hole and tossing them into it. You are harsh on Cap for not having ideas, but that's not really his job. Nor is it his point. He doesn't have to have a better idea in order to explain why the current one is bad. Tony had a reason for trying to keep Wanda away from the PR nightmare while he was trying to get all his friends pardoned. However, as you admitted, he went about it in a terrible way. Cap is helping her to get control of her powers. She's gotta do that in intense situations for it to work and since there's no Danger Room in this universe, he tried her in combat. Perhaps not the best tactic, but as you defended Iron Man with, what is the alternative? It is the definition of Captain America's job actually. He wants it to be his job. That's kind of the entire point. He wants the hands that are responsible to be their own which by definition means he needs to have a solution. And Tony wasn't planning to 'just lock her away.' Like Vision explains the situation and it isn't Tony locking her up forever. It was "at the moment poo poo is explosive." She even hesitated leaving at first because of that. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:04 on May 7, 2016 |
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May 7, 2016 02:00
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Thursday night box office for Civil War was 25 million. Experts seem split on what that means for total weekend box office, with some projecting as low as 180 million and some projecting as high as 215. Really huge range, to be quite honest.
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May 7, 2016 02:18
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That was a really good movie and neither Tony nor Steve's character had to be twisted into a pretzel for it to work.
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May 7, 2016 02:20
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Toxxupation posted:Thursday night box office for Civil War was 25 million. Unless it does way bigger than expected on the weekend the high end is insane. It'll probably land somewhere right around Age of Ultron and not too far above or below which was what I expected. I'm not sure where these 210+ projections are coming from. I think maybe with Jurassic World, Star Wars, and Deadpool defying predictions people honestly don't know what's going to happen anymore.
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May 7, 2016 02:32
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The general logic for high-end estimates seems to be that Thursday night "sneaks" are a small proportion of overall weekend box office for MCU movies (9-14%, as opposed to DCEU being 16+%), MCU movies are really strong four-quadrant films that perform well on all three days of the weekend (again, over DCEU being heavily front-loaded on initial weekends, and male-skewing films in general), and that Civil War in particular has the golden trifecta for really strong opening weekend of strong pre-release ticket sales, strong critical acclaim, and heavy mentions on social media (which, again, BvS only had one of those three, arguably two). Personally I think it'll be above 205 million opening weekend. Not a lot more, but I think it'll hit 205. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 02:41 on May 7, 2016 |
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May 7, 2016 02:38
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Nobody is talking about BvS. They're comparing it to Ultron, which it did less than.
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May 7, 2016 02:41
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I think it'll be a good haul if it does Avengers money but the truth is even though it has those characters it still doesn't have Avengers name and that actually makes more of a difference than people think. I still think the best bet is somewhere around 185-195M. I think 200M is unlikely. In fact I'd think it more likely that it would do lower, around 170-180M, than doing over 200M.
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May 7, 2016 02:49
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I dunno if a straightline comparison to Ultron is inherently valid. Fandango sold the most pre-release tickets for it, ever (outstripping BvS), and Ultron got hurt by mixed critical reviews and word of mouth.
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May 7, 2016 02:49
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Well on that logic Ultron and Batman v Superman both had more come in on Thursday night previews, so I'd expect it to be less than both opening weekends if you want to judge by that metric.
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May 7, 2016 02:51
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