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bloodysabbath posted:And like clockwork, the "conversation" about the meaning of this particular word has circled back to "lol fuckin losers lol fuckin white kids." Dunno, you're the one who came up with a huge false equivalence between poorly socialized people with a hobby and actually oppressed people. Sorry the loud standard bearers of the hobby you identify with are awful people who harass women and people trying to clean up the dirty corners of gaming, but acting like people shouldn't react to it is a special kind of entitled.
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Jun 9, 2016 12:19
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bloodysabbath posted:I think you (willingly?) missed the part where I said I stop well short of claiming you can "marginalize" a group based on their consumer hobby. No, you made an equivalence between minority people trying to clean up gaming and the people sending rape/death threats to whoever didn't give Chris Kyle Simulator 2016 an A+++ greatest game ever review. Acting like they are both valid sides of an argument effectively says that "Maybe we should actually think about the themes involved in our media instead of mindlessly consuming" and the threats I won't even think to re-write are both about at the same level. I'm sorry, but I disagree and think I have lots of company here. I get that it's scary to see things you enjoy get criticized, but that's the only way things get better and gaming gets out of the AAA ghetto it's been stuck in for over a console generation. If movies are any indication, even decent criticism won't kill the worst excesses anyway, judging by the fact that Michael Bay is still a thing and The Green Inferno made it to theaters. Honestly, a diversity in gaming can only help when the AAA bubble bursts (it'll happen sooner rather than later) so that there's something to pick up the slack instead of everything being a high cost, high risk endeavor. You just need to get past the point where somehow games are some special snowflake that has to have "objective"-style reviews without the slightest hint of the thoughts of the critic-- note: Just asking for an apolitical review is in itself political, especially given how slanted gaming has become in the last decade or so.
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Jun 10, 2016 17:05
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bloodysabbath posted:Exactly this. Games writers who fancy themselves in the business of high-minded criticism, to a man, suffer from the inability to articulate their points in anything approaching a reasoned manner. Two flavors of game "criticism" overwhelmingly dominate: clickbait-style pearl clutching, which gamers react poorly to because it's the same tired poo poo they got during the 90s/00s, and it doesn't matter if it's coming from opportunistic journalists now instead of opportunistic politicians. The second flavor is articles in which the writer is clearly in love with the sound of their own voice, use 100 words where 1 would do, and usually tie a video game to some personal baggage. And this is where you lose your audience. The reason gamers get the "fedora manbaby nerd loser" line is specifically because they reply to criticism of their hobby with death threats. Never mind the disgusting behavior you see in online gaming towards women and other minorities. The solution is to call it out whenever you see it and excise the cancer from the community, which I give journalists plenty of props for trying to do. Of course, this also tends to bring out the worst of the community at the same time. Instead of coming up with an anti-intellectual argument against people, use the opportunity to see which of the people standing beside you are awful people willing to attack women and minorities, and tell them to GTFO out of your community. In reality, this isn't a gamergate thing, at least in so much as GG is about specific events instead of the pernicious alt right movement that's corrupting online culture. A bunch of young white men are angry that life isn't as slanted towards them as it was even a decade ago, and instead of just sucking it up and dealing like an adult, they're taking it out on anyone who's not a 100% white male average joe or willing to mindlessly defer to them. The abusive end of gamers are just another tentacle of this movement, same as the sad puppies, metalgate, or even the internet support for Trump.
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Jun 10, 2016 17:36
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Powercrazy posted:Why should anyone, self-identified gamer or not, give a poo poo about the "community"? You don't need to, but then you don't get to complain when people criticize you for standing next to them. The people you associate with reflect on you. Note that I play games a good bit (though I doubt I qualify as a gamer since I haven't bothered with AAA games in two generations) and I understand I need to help keep my side of the street clean. It also helps me too, since sunshine has helped get some of the more disgusting parts of Japanese games (sexualization of children, weird levels of misogyny and racism) out of the American releases. Nothing annoyed me more than when I bought Star Ocean: The Last Hope looking for an actionish RPG like the rest of the series, and instead got all the hallmarks of some pedo dating sim (Thousand year olds stuck in children's bodies, crazy levels of fanservice, ect) I get that Japanese culture is different, but I honestly don't care and would prefer to never have to ask around if games had that kind of garbage in them again. As a positive example, Bravely Second making less skimpy outfits for the underage girls in the game while also dumping the Native American minstrel show costumes showed that someone at NoA was actually paying attention for once.
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Jun 10, 2016 18:40
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Sword and Sceptre posted:This is the crux of the problem with "non-gamers"(you are clearly a gamer) and their criticism of games. You want to dictate the social norms of another culture, because presumably you have such a narrow world view anything that you find questionable or don't understand has to be nixed. No other media form is under the same form of scrutiny as video games. I personally find Schindler's List ahistorical, deplorable, and a jewish fluff piece. That being said I'm still glad that a challenging film that tries to tackle that subject matter exists, that is the central difference video games and other mediums, their critics are grown up enough to live and let live. As far as hills to die on, I think sexualized depictions of children is a pretty good one to die on. It's also pretty rich watching a literal Nazi try to try to make an argument to live and let live. Honestly, just being on the other side of an issue from you makes me feel pretty good that I'm in a decent spot. Also, the things we see in video games would easily be criticized in other mediums if it showed up there. Remember that there was a pretty big outcry about The Green Inferno? Shockingly, decent people are willing to stand up when wrong things are being put out there, not that you'd know anything about being a decent person. Sword and Sceptre posted:I was more referring to the twitter and op-ed hit pieces or the struggle between gamer gaters and their opponents. I would love more long form criticism of video games. Yes, because Sad Puppies, Metalgate, or similar fights in the tabletop community obviously don't exist. The GG stuff is bigger because video games are bigger. You get decent long form criticism, but the community doesn't like it when it ends up with things like "Why are angry white guys so predominantly the main characters in games", and that bring out the alt right threat brigade to push their bile out on the screen and page. You can't get expect that these kinds of craven attacks just get to happen without any mention.
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Jun 10, 2016 22:33
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Woolie Wool posted:Does "metalgate" actually exist though? I remember some Gamergate supporters trying to astroturf it in late 2014 but it seems to have been met mostly with contempt and derision among metalheads. Yup, you remember Metalgate. Turns out metal fans in general have about the same tolerance for the alt right as punk rockers. Sad Puppies is the better example, and those guys are in the process of getting nutstomped for the second year in a row. The alt right is sort of winning with video games (in that they've cost actually decent people jobs) and tabletop games, though the latter is a much smaller deal due to how far gone tabletop is anymore. The point is that the alt right has been trying to get its tentacles into all the aspects of nerd culture.
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Jun 10, 2016 23:21
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bloodysabbath posted:Not if what you want from game journalism is reliable, down the middle of the plate buying advice, because these things are expensive products first and foremost at the end of the day. This reliable, down the middle buying advice doesn't and never has existed. Beyond the fact that old gaming mags were complete industry rags made to pimp games, the idea that you can come up with buying advice without injecting your personal views is impossible. The review advice can't be objective on the basis that quality isn't objective. If you want buying advice, try to find a critic who's previous picks line up with your taste in the game's genre. Or if you really aren't sure, just skip the new release and put some cash into older used titles that you think you might like. If you pick up 4 $15 used titles and one is good, it the same as buying a single new game at full retail. If you get 2 that are good, you're way ahead. Wasn't that hard, and you didn't even need to listen to the mean old critics who gave you the bad bellyfeel about your hobby.
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Jun 11, 2016 18:18
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Great Metal Jesus posted:What happened with Kayne and Lynch? A journalist got fired because he gave a less than stellar review of the Kane & Lynch 2. Basically, the production house played the "We give you ad buys, so drop this guy for not loving our game" and the website folded like a cheap suit. There's some irony that this was seen as a meh by the lunatic fringe of gamers made exactly zero issue with this, probably because it made sure that their precious AAA market would be free of criticism for a few more years.
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Jun 11, 2016 18:45
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