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Jeza
Feb 13, 2011

The cries of the dead are terrible indeed; you should try not to hear them.

Sheep-Goats posted:

The big freerolls did offer little cash payouts though, right? That at least makes the final table into real poker.

The real risk was dying of old age beforehand.

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raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless

Jeza posted:

The real risk was dying of old age beforehand.

True

I think Isildur's first money came from the freerolls, maybe that one Overstaad or whatever chick too? I just deposited 200 or whatever because I wasn't 13 when I started playing

raton fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Jul 20, 2016

JaySB
Nov 16, 2006



Hi, I'm here. Ask away.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
If you had switched to an all turkey sandwich diet like you were advised to would you have been able to not lose the WSOP?

JaySB
Nov 16, 2006



Sheep-Goats posted:

If you had switched to an all turkey sandwich diet like you were advised to would you have been able to not lose the WSOP?

Who advised me of such a thing? And likely no

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless

JaySB posted:

Who advised me of such a thing? And likely no

Just a little ten year old Jcarver turkey meme that may have never existed outside of my own mind :smug:

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on

JaySB posted:

Hi, I'm here. Ask away.
For those that don't know, Jay placed 2nd in the 2013 Main Event for a nice $5,174,357 payday.

Did you find it tough to play for so many days straight, or were you pretty much just cruising? How did you prepare for the final table? How was the pressure at the final table? What made you make that sweet bluff playing heads up? Do you feel like reads were a big part of your game at the final table, or was it a lot of just playing the cards? Were you worried about giving off tells when you're that under pressure?

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


JaySB posted:

Hi, I'm here. Ask away.

Do you still play poker professionally? How much of your earnings went to Uncle Sam?

JaySB
Nov 16, 2006



Tab8715 posted:

Do you still play poker professionally? How much of your earnings went to Uncle Sam?

I never played or play professionally. But I play in some pretty big cash games these days. Regarding taxes, it's gambling winnings so it's offset by losses. One can be quite creative with losses if you want to be. That's all I'll say.

Imaduck posted:

Did you find it tough to play for so many days straight, or were you pretty much just cruising? How did you prepare for the final table? How was the pressure at the final table? What made you make that sweet bluff playing heads up? Do you feel like reads were a big part of your game at the final table, or was it a lot of just playing the cards? Were you worried about giving off tells when you're that under pressure?

It's really really mentally and physically taxing to play good poker for 7 straight days. There's a ton of variance in tournament poker but to run deep in the Main Event you have to play mistake free poker and get lucky for an extended period of time. I prepared for the final table by partying my face off for 3 months. There was no real pressure, I wasn't expected to do much being the amateur at the table. I had a good friend tell me "Whatever is going to happen is going to happen, just go out there and have fun." I really tried to do that. Some of my friends are the brightest guys in the poker world, they gave me a few tips on strategy but that was about it regarding play. Regarding the 6 high bluff, I didn't feel like he was strong, I couldn't win the pot if I didn't bet, and I could rep a TON of hands that could beat him if my read was accurate. He also could have found a lot better spots to make a stand than calling it off there. Live reads are pretty important, with my rail and the tape delay we were able to pick up on a few cues that helped a bit. At the end of the day, heads up is really high variance though and the cards are the cards. I don't feel like I have a lot of live tells, maybe a couple timing tells but that's about it. Wasn't worried too much about it as evidenced by the bluff

yeah I eat ass
Mar 14, 2005

only people who enjoy my posting can replace this avatar
Online poker question: have you ever had to jump through a ton of hoops to set up an account? I started an EU pokerstars account and made a deposit, only for my account to be locked and they requested a copy of my ID and a bank statement. OK, whatever, it was from a legitimate email and I've heard people being asked for similar things before.

But then after I sent these things, they requested a photograph of me holding said ID. Am I wrong to think this is loving ridiculous? I asked them to refund my deposit so I can play somewhere else because this is over the line to me. I gave them a valid bank account with a valid TAN number that resulted in a valid deposit. What does seeing me hold my valid government ID give them? What should I do if they hold the money? Call a lawyer? I'm petty enough to spend more than I deposited just to get it back (within reason) but with such a huge company I doubt that would result in anything that ends well for me.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
If you want a withdrawal they'll let you withdraw it no sweat. Don't worry about that.

As an American I can only play on shitburg retard sites and they don't give a poo poo about anything. Stars is the flagship site in the poker world without question and it's nice to see them trying to do something imo, even if it's a bad experience for you.

I wish I could play on Stars.

yeah I eat ass
Mar 14, 2005

only people who enjoy my posting can replace this avatar
My main issue is my time they are wasting with 12-24 hours between responses. I wanted to get started playing last night when I was in the mood, now I'm just fed up. Somebody would have had to be living in my house with all of my belongings and PIN numbers only I knew to make the deposit I did and give the information I have. The photo of me holding the ID just seems excessive and I know I'll have to wait 1-2 days for them to process that and let me actually play.

I appreciate security, but I'm trying to play cards, not obtain top secret clearance.

e: it's especially annoying because when I lived in Switzerland I was able to play straight away with no problems. It's only after I changed my address and deposit information that they decided to get so annoying/strict.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
It's unusual but I'm not surprised that Stars is putting in that kind of care. It's that same mindset that kept them from running into any of the major scandals that killed a lot of other big sites.

bengy81
May 8, 2010
Regarding books, I saw the recommendations from the first page, but I was wondering if any of the older Sklansky books still hold up? Like I have Hold em and Stud for advanced players, and I haven't read them in a few years, just wondering if it's worth taking the time on them or if I should invest in some newer material.

JaySB
Nov 16, 2006



bengy81 posted:

Regarding books, I saw the recommendations from the first page, but I was wondering if any of the older Sklansky books still hold up? Like I have Hold em and Stud for advanced players, and I haven't read them in a few years, just wondering if it's worth taking the time on them or if I should invest in some newer material.

I would probably invest in some newer material or spend a couple bucks on some VT website membership. Or watch JCarver's twitch channel

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless

bengy81 posted:

Regarding books, I saw the recommendations from the first page, but I was wondering if any of the older Sklansky books still hold up? Like I have Hold em and Stud for advanced players, and I haven't read them in a few years, just wondering if it's worth taking the time on them or if I should invest in some newer material.

I think newer Hold'em material would be well worth the small money you'd pay for it over those ancient Sklansky books. Stud for Advanced Players is still used mostly because there isn't much out there in the way of Stud books (same for the 2-7 chapter in Super System 2), at least not in book form. I know Joe Tall has some Stud videos on deucescracked, which is also his site.

Note that the recommendations earlier in the thread were all almost entirely about No Limit Hold'em. Hold'em For Advanced Players is a limit book. You should, of course, read a book about the variation of poker you're going to play. If you play NLHE and have only really read Sklansky's old HFEP book then Small Stakes No Limit Hold'em by Metha/Flynn is basically the best possible book for you. If the price on it is prohibitive to you (like 30 bucks or something new?) you might be able to find a very extended sample of it in PDF form somewhere online.

raton fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Jul 26, 2016

bengy81
May 8, 2010

Sheep-Goats posted:

I think newer Hold'em material would be well worth the small money you'd pay for it over those ancient Sklansky books. Stud for Advanced Players is still used mostly because there isn't much out there in the way of Stud books (same for the 2-7 chapter in Super System 2), at least not in book form. I know Joe Tall has some Stud videos on deucescracked, which is also his site.

Note that the recommendations earlier in the thread were all almost entirely about No Limit Hold'em. Hold'em For Advanced Players is a limit book. You should, of course, read a book about the variation of poker you're going to play. If you play NLHE and have only really read Sklansky's old HFEP book then Small Stakes No Limit Hold'em by Metha/Flynn is basically the best possible book for you. If the price on it is prohibitive to you (like 30 bucks or something new?) you might be able to find a very extended sample of it in PDF form somewhere online.

Thanks, I totally forgot that HE was a limit book. I figured it was worth investing in some newer material, but figured it was also worth asking about.
Poker books are expensive but I think 2 + 2 is running a sale at the moment. Also I would go ahead and say that if a 30 book on poker is too much money then you probably picked the wrong hobby.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless

bengy81 posted:

Thanks, I totally forgot that HE was a limit book. I figured it was worth investing in some newer material, but figured it was also worth asking about.
Poker books are expensive but I think 2 + 2 is running a sale at the moment. Also I would go ahead and say that if a 30 book on poker is too much money then you probably picked the wrong hobby.

It's also not okay to be selling poker books for hundred or sometimes thousands of dollars like some people have done in the past.

Keg
Sep 22, 2014

Sheep-Goats posted:

It's also not okay to be selling poker books for hundred or sometimes thousands of dollars like some people have done in the past.

Didn't everybody just steal Let There Be Range, anyway?

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless

Keg posted:

Didn't everybody just steal Let There Be Range, anyway?

And Chambers' PLO book, though I don't know if Vol 1 ever got leaked to the general public.

Still though.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0pfy3B7aAU

tl;dw : turns out the top players in the game really are that good

bengy81
May 8, 2010
Hey, thanks for the Jcarver recommendation, turns out his stuff is pretty entertaining.

I know I'm like a month late on this question, but how do you feel about dudes like Ferguson and Lederer coming out of the woodwork to start playing in tournaments?
I've seen a lot of butthurt about it and even as somebody that was boned by FTP I have a hard time caring whether or not they are playing.

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on
Although I didn't play during that era, I still have a lot of angst towards them. Their shenanigans legitimized the shutdown of online poker in the US, and is are a big part of the reason that we don't have online poker today in the states.

Of course, it's unclear how much they really knew about or were involved in, but their tight-lipped stance on the issue hasn't help alleviate anyone's discomfort with them. Personally, I think a permanent ban from mainstream live poker is more than fair, given the massive number of players that they ruined the game for.

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


Imaduck posted:

Although I didn't play during that era, I still have a lot of angst towards them. Their shenanigans legitimized the shutdown of online poker in the US, and is are a big part of the reason that we don't have online poker today in the states.

Of course, it's unclear how much they really knew about or were involved in, but their tight-lipped stance on the issue hasn't help alleviate anyone's discomfort with them. Personally, I think a permanent ban from mainstream live poker is more than fair, given the massive number of players that they ruined the game for.

Who's Shenanigans?

Bardeh
Dec 2, 2004

Fun Shoe

Tab8715 posted:

Who's Shenanigans?

Chris Ferguson and Howard Lederer.

They were both major shareholders/part owners of Full Tilt, and basically siphoned off millions of dollars of players' funds.

JaySB
Nov 16, 2006



Bardeh posted:

Chris Ferguson and Howard Lederer.

They were both major shareholders/part owners of Full Tilt, and basically siphoned off millions of dollars of players' funds.

That's a pretty gross oversimplification of what happened. They were pretty much just getting paychecks and telling people what they were told. But people want someone to point a finger at so they're stuck with it.

I don't see the same people holding Phil Ivey or similar players accountable. And by the way, all that Full Tilt money those guys got paid was funneled right back into the poker community. If they needed money FTP would loan it to them and they would fire it off on the website. Ray Bitar and the US Government are really the major culprits in all that but what do I know.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
I don't know the details in who exactly did what as far as Full Tilt sins go but Full Tilt getting shut down put an axe to my neck right when I'd finally moved out of the Micros as a PLO player. That was really bad timing for me and if that hadn't happened maybe I'd be a 5/5 PLO reg today instead of a 1/2 PLO casual (live monies).

I know there's a ton of vitriol toward Lederer and Bitar especially. A long time ago I read Lederer's sister's (?) autobiography and it talked about Lederer a lot in it. Maybe it was his biography written by his sister? I forget. Anyway Lederer had been running books and small scale card rooms and poo poo like that for a long time before he got involved with Full Tilt and IMO he's exactly the sort of person to ramjam a ponzi scheme or siphon company money or whatever if he could -- he's the sort of person that can internally justify that stuff and then give you honest eyes when you confront him about the issues with what's he's doing because in his mind the operation is fixated in another way -- in this case I have no doubt (but also no evidence) that Lederer saw Full Tilt as his personal money pinata, that it was set up to be exactly that, and why are you mad at me, that's what this thing is, who told you it's one of the two premier poker sites available worldwide and a safe place to deposit real money and play poker with it?

Ferguson I can see just being a dope and going along with what he'd told. Lederer I can't.

raton fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Aug 5, 2016

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
I made this a long time ago and was considering buying it as :plo:



The font for the text and the button shape was taken from Full Tilt screenshots

Terrorforge
Dec 22, 2013

More of a furnace, really
I want to learn the game. I'm a Swedish tryhard with a working understanding of probability and a lot of experience with tcgs but virtually no poker experience whatsoever. Where do I start learning? Where do I start playing?

Oh, and how do I know when I've stopped sucking? Is there any sort of ranking system in play?

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless

Terrorforge posted:

I want to learn the game. I'm a Swedish tryhard with a working understanding of probability and a lot of experience with tcgs but virtually no poker experience whatsoever. Where do I start learning? Where do I start playing?

Oh, and how do I know when I've stopped sucking? Is there any sort of ranking system in play?

A suggested trajectory:

1) Read Phil Gordon's Little Green Book

2) Put about 300USD on Pokerstars and play 0.05/0.10 No Limit Hold'em (these are the tables with a max buyin of ten dollars). Pay attention to what you're doing. Try to apply what you know from LGB. You will lose money at first but will figure a few things out as you go and eventually break even. You don't have to put 300 on at once but I would expect you to lose at least a hundred before you kind of figure the game out and likely another hundred after that until you figure it out well enough to not lose. If Stars has cheaper games (0.03/0.05, where the max buyin is five bucks) then you might as well start there. Real money games are real poker games, no matter how small the stakes.

3) Buy Hold'em Manager. It's expensive but vital to any real poker payer's success. There's another similar program called Poker Tracker that many people prefer but I think it's probably 70/30 for Hold'em Manager. This is a very robust stat tracking and analysis package for poker. Look up some guides for a basic Head's Up Display using these stats and start integrating the HUD into your poker play a bit, especially the VPIP and PFR numbers for adjusting how you play against different people preflop off of whatever base understanding you developed in part 2.

4) Start posting hands you have questions about to forums like 2+2 or here to get people advice on how you should play them. Never post "what actually happened" until discussion is dead as this will taint people's advice really badly -- give them the picture you had step by step and try to see how their thinking differs from yours.

5) Once you are making money at these limits you should feel confident enough to play in a live game at low stakes for fun without thinking you're doomed to lose. Many people play solely online but "can kind of hack it at .05/.10" is about equivalent to "can reliably beat the lowest stake live game in the area."

6) Buy Metha and Flynn's Small Stakes No Limit Hold'em and read that.

7) By now you'll know if you want to start playing tournaments or not. Whether you play cash games (where the money you win/lose is the money you win/lose and can enter or leave any time you want) or tournaments (where the money you lose is what you pay to enter and the money you win depends on how you place in the tournament and you have to be there at the start and leave at the end or when you bust out) is almost entirely a matter of taste. Cash games are the "pure" form of poker but then lots of people don't adapt well to the changes you need to make to be a reliable winner in tournaments so maybe you feel it's easier money -- maybe you just want to win big once in a while instead of grinding out your 4BB/100 slowly on a cash table, etc, etc. Anyway at this point you start looking into other poker variants, tournaments vs. cash, that kind of stuff, and try to vary what you play for some small part of the time you're playing. Every poker game will teach you something about your main game that you didn't realize so even just messing around a little with other stuff will help you develop. Additionally maybe you'll find a different sort of poker to make your main game instead.

8) Shift to video learning resources. JCarver's Twitch stream, sites like Deuces Cracked, etc.

Hold'em Manager will tell you when you stop sucking because you'll have a positive win rate over a reliable sample of hands. It has little graphs and stuff. You could easily play live poker casually for half a year and still not be sure if you're garbage or not -- a really experienced player would know but it doesn't flow both ways.

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on
Everything Sheep-Goats said is gold. I'd only add step 0: If you don't know the rules at all (what hands beat what, when you bet, etc.) play a week or two of play money games to figure that out. You'll definitely want to jump into real money games as fast as possible though.

Terrorforge
Dec 22, 2013

More of a furnace, really

Sheep-Goats posted:

Poker words

That was very thorough and exactly what I needed, thanks. I was a little put off initially because I underestimated the monetary investment, but the more I think about it the more I realize ~$300 isn't all that much compared to what I've spent on games where I couldn't even win it back. Plus PokerStars seems to have games as low as 0.01/0.02, which which seems like it'd stretch the money further. Exactly five times further, as a matter of fact.

Imaduck posted:

Everything Sheep-Goats said is gold. I'd only add step 0: If you don't know the rules at all (what hands beat what, when you bet, etc.) play a week or two of play money games to figure that out. You'll definitely want to jump into real money games as fast as possible though.

And this is probably the last little thing that'll push me into actually doing it. I have basic familiarity with the hands, but I'm really fuzzy on the betting structure so a few games of pretend sounds like exactly the kind of training wheel outing I'd need to feel comfortable betting real money. I'll read up on the basics, play a few free games and sink my teeth into the Little Green Book.

Thanks a ton!

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
Green book will cover why I said 300. If they have .01/.02 games then you can start with sixty bucks. When I was new .05/.10 was as small as it got!

Armagnac
Jun 24, 2005
Le feu de la vie.
The thing I see new players do at neighborhood games is call WAY too frequently. Because calling is seen as friendly, but not weak, and they lose very quickly.

Basically a good excercise as a newbie, spend your first hour never calling. Either Raise or Fold, because you don't know what a good call is yet, and you don't have a grasp on hands yet. so chances are, a raise or fold are better choice than a call, but because you've been socially conditioned to play along, you call.

The other big mistake I see is people not understanding how vastly the odds and the strength of hands changes based on how many people are playing. Playing with 10-8 isn't that different but there's a HUGE difference in what's strong between playing 4 & 5 people.

Also playing some tournament style poker tends to sharpen you faster as it's really easy to just lose money at low stakes and not care. Getting knocked out of a tournament at any stakes sucks.

But then again, I'm a pretty bad poker player, and I can't consistently beat anything. I tend to get very bored playing tight, which is why I like 1 table tournaments, you have to start getting very aggressive at a certain point.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
I really don't advocate raise or fold only even for the newest player (except preflop first in and of course in a bunch of low M tournament spots). One of the most important early lessons you learn in poker is that you're not there to win hands, you're there to make money. There are lots of situations where if you raise there only hands that will continue vs you are hands that beat you and the hands you beat will all fold. This is an especially common spot for new players who are playing tight like they're supposed to be. Say you raise pre with AT (T means ten) on the button and get a call from the big blind. Flop is T65, big blind leads into you for 3/4 pot. Against your average low stakes player here a raise is pretty awful and a fold is idiotic. He could be reasonably betting here with hands you beat (T9, JT, A6 suited, 67, 87, 43, 99, 88, 77, sometimes 68, sometimes 54), hands you don't beat (JJ, TT, 66, 55, 65) and a few total bluffs/brain malfunctions. If you raise almost none of the first set will call very often (unless he's terrible) and all of the second set will. You've now effectively turned your good hand into a bluff where his range is so strong that you're only folding out rebluffs (it takes a really terrible player to rebluff regularly against an unknown here) with further aggression.

Your actions change your opponent's likely holdings going forward in the hand. It's not good to set up a world where you always either win a small pot or lose a big one once you are involved in a hand and that's what raise/fold only postflop usually creates.

I'm not saying that new players don't call too much. I'm also not saying that you couldn't try out raise/fold only as an exercise for 30 minutes to see how many folds can be found that otherwise you wouldn't get. I'm saying that poker is about making money and the best decision is always the one that makes you the most money.

Let's say you have seen someone's cards and know they have two outs to your holding. Let's say that if you bet they will also suspect they only have two outs but aren't certain of this. Obviously you would love to make a bet and have it get called. But should you? It always depends. Will he imagine you're bluffing if you make a big bet? Will he bet for you big on the next street if you check back, and if this is the case is he more likely to call a repop by you because you already showed weakness or will he decide he's been trapped and give up right away? Will he refuse to bet any more given his suspicions but be unable to find a fold against three smallish bets to the river?

You always have to be developing and weighing ranges and then sketching out a way that your hand vs. his range is not just good for you but the best for you. This is enough to beat the micros. Moving out of the micros requires also imagining what he thinks your range is and how that is altering his range and the weights in it.

Armagnac
Jun 24, 2005
Le feu de la vie.
You're right, but in my experience, with a lot of very new players, they just call and call and call and call, and are scared to raise or and don't want to look weak to the group so they fold.

I've seen people call *with a bluff*. Developing ranges for their opponents isn't even an idea, a value bet is a new concept to some people.

And yes poker is about making money, but at live low-stakes games with friends, I'm there to learn, and make each other better, and make the game better. I have way more fun arguing about a play, and teaching each other better poker through play than to grind it out. Poker can be a really fun interesting game.

Also, I'm thinking of getting back into Online, and saw people recommend Bovada, is there one to recommend these days? I live in NYC.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
I play on Bovada a little it's ok. Kind of the only option I think but I'm not up to date on online in the US so maybe I should keep my mouth shut.

raton fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Aug 11, 2016

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
Poker guys just put out a video illustrating really well the virtue of keeping "call" in your wheelhouse even in a spot where raises are generally very common for multiple reasons and on the surface entirely sane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=375FUg8be5E

It's very easy to lose track of your goal in poker, especially when you're new, especially given how the game is custom made to engage every combatative instinct you have. In poker you are never trying to win a hand, you are always trying to make money. This includes out-of-the-small-stakes concepts like range balancing. The minute you lose sight of the profit motive you make mistakes imo, often big ones.

raton fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Aug 11, 2016

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on
I'm totally fine with the rule "never call preflop" for new players, since 95% of the time raising or folding are your best options. Postflop, however, I totally agree with Sheep-Goats; there are way too many spots where calling is the optimal option for you to limit yourself.

In any case, the key to getting better at poker is playing the hand the way you think it should be played, then going back later and reviewing every decision you made by asking yourself what would have happened if you made a different decision. There are no substitutes for that.


Armagnac posted:

Also, I'm thinking of getting back into Online, and saw people recommend Bovada, is there one to recommend these days? I live in NYC.
I've heard good things about America's Card Room as well, but I haven't checked it out yet. Bovada's anonymous thing really annoys me, so I'm thinking of making the switch.

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Terrorforge
Dec 22, 2013

More of a furnace, really

Sheep-Goats posted:

4) Start posting hands you have questions about to forums like 2+2 or here to get people advice on how you should play them. Never post "what actually happened" until discussion is dead as this will taint people's advice really badly -- give them the picture you had step by step and try to see how their thinking differs from yours.

Let's try this thing:


I'm playing .01/.02 cash games on PokerStars. I'm small blind and have AhAd in the hole.

Preflop, everyone folds to me. I raise to 3xBB. Big blind calls.

Flop comes up 10c2d3h. I bet 1/3 the pot (2xBB), thinking I probably still have the best hand and might be able to entice them to put more money in.

Big blind immediately raises to 2.5x the pot (20xBB).

What do I do now? Have I made any mistakes up to this point? How badly dig I just mangle the jargon?

e: in case you don't feel like counting, at this point there are 27BB in the pot, and calling would cost 18BB

Terrorforge fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Aug 16, 2016

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