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raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
First of all my general feeling in a spot like that is "this is a great chance to make a nice amount of money." I'm not generally thrilled to get my stack in with one pair (although there are lots of spots where I'll decide it's the way to go) but having The Best Pair Guaranteed in a pot without a lot of raises (just one so far and there are a lot of possible reasons for it) is usually a good spot.

You raise pre (of course) and he has position but just called. It's likely at this point that he's a guy that doesn't play aggressively or he has a bad hand. I would raise here if I was him if I was going to play and I'd do it with a huge variety of hands, but this is penny poker and he doesn't know what he's doing either.

What does he think you have? Basically he thinks you have an ace, or any two picture cards, or some medium pairs. Why? Well that's what people think you have when you raise preflop. The flop comes and you bet really small. Normal sizing on the flop is 3/4 pot (+/- 1/4 pot). The flop looks bad for you because there's no matchers to what he thinks you have (an A, K, Q, or J) and you look weak because of the small bet so he raises -- or he has like 23 and lol crushed it.

My plan would be to call the raise and check the turn. If he checks back I'll bet about half pot on the river and expect to get called by all of his TX hands (x= any other card, the likely ones being broadway cards and 9). If he bets I'll call again and plan to check river. If he bets river then I'll have to think about calling or folding but will probably call.

Normally the above plans would include me adapting my strategy to what cards come on the turn and river (eg: if x y z comes I'll be happy to get money in, if a b does I'll be unhappy but still probably have to call, I can fold on another T and real strength...) but with AA on a dry board you beat everything one pair and he has a lot of hands like that because it was cheap to play preflop.

One other thing you should always mention at the start of your hand questions is how big your stacks are. Green Book is not very good about this but adjusting bet sizes based on how the money can go in through a hand (is bet bet bet enough, do you need a raise, if he raises is he threatening your stack or not, etc) is very important in NLHE. When you're new you can use a rule of thumb of 3x raises/bets pre, 3/4 pot bets flop and turn, 1/2 pot bet river but after just a little while you'll see where the holes are in this on your own.

raton fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Aug 16, 2016

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raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
Two things I want to add:

1) anyone else commenting is likely to suggest a more aggressive plan than I have. I'm probably the worst player of the people who will respond so don't take me advice as baseline and weigh theirs against mine. Just average all of the opinions out for now, with experience you'll be able to discount some opinions entirely.

2) If I was playing against two or more villains instead of just one how I would play would change as would my gut feelings on relative strengths. I can't generalize for how because it depends a lot on the dynamics of the situation, but in general you should never carry rules of thumb based on heads up play into multiway play.

raton fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Aug 16, 2016

Terrorforge
Dec 22, 2013

More of a furnace, really
Thanks for the input.

For reference, the stacks in this case were me at 1.5xMax buy-in (150BB) and them at 1 buy-in (100BB).

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
Thanks, those numbers don't change my advice.

If it's heads up you can say "effective stacks are 100bb" instead of naming stacks discretely. I'm sure you can see why the effective stack is always the smaller of the two stacks.

If they let you buy in to 150x be hesitant to put in your stack heads up with one pair hands, even AA (unless we're taking preflop of course). Multiway you should always list stacks -- if everyone has 100bb just say that. If you don't remember just say that and expect that someone needles you for it a little.

I also usually try to give my current reads on a) what I think he plays like and b) what I imagine he thinks I play like if those things have developed in that session. I find it a little irritating when people ask about a hand that they played live and don't offer any of this. Online it's sometimes too early to tell and you have less time to develop these thoughts anyway (though you should still put a lot of effort into doing it). Live though I'm never playing any given hand the same way against a grey haired old man in bad health that I am against a 22 year old Asian kid.

I kind of assume if someone doesn't say something that an online hand is 100bb stacks with no reads / player info. You should still say that if that's the case though, there are some spots where it doesn't matter much, there are others where it's everything.

raton fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Aug 16, 2016

Terrorforge
Dec 22, 2013

More of a furnace, really

Sheep-Goats posted:

If it's heads up you can say "effective stacks are 100bb" instead of naming stacks discretely. I'm sure you can see why the effective stack is always the smaller of the two stacks.

Is this true even if the stacks are of vastly different size? If they're at 7bb, should my play not be affected by whether I have 14bb or 140bb?

Sheep-Goats posted:

I also usually try to give my current reads on a) what I think he plays like and b) what I imagine he thinks I play like if those things have developed in that session. I find it a little irritating when people ask about a hand that they played live and don't offer any of this. Online it's sometimes too early to tell and you have less time to develop these thoughts anyway (though you should still put a lot of effort into doing it). Live though I'm never playing any given hand the same way against a grey haired old man in bad health that I am against a 22 year old Asian kid.

I kind of assume if someone doesn't say something that an online hand is 100bb stacks with no reads / player info. You should still say that if that's the case though, there are some spots where it doesn't matter much, there are others where it's everything.

As you might imagine, the issue here is that I don't have much of a read and even if I did, I'm not sure I would trust it. Apart from just being new, I have a nasty habit of assuming everyone is worse than me until they stove my face in. I'll make sure to actually say that in the future, though.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless

Terrorforge posted:

Is this true even if the stacks are of vastly different size? If they're at 7bb, should my play not be affected by whether I have 14bb or 140bb?


As you might imagine, the issue here is that I don't have much of a read and even if I did, I'm not sure I would trust it. Apart from just being new, I have a nasty habit of assuming everyone is worse than me until they stove my face in. I'll make sure to actually say that in the future, though.

A) If they only have a 7bb stack AND you're heads up then what good does your extra 143bb do? He can only call/raise 7bb max. If its him and another guy behind him with 80bb then there's no "effective stack." So yes. If he has 7bb and he's your only foe the effective stack is 7bb (in spots like this which are uncommon live but do happen in tournaments the action is almost always all in or fold based on hand strengths / likelihood of finding a better spot before you don't have a choice)

B) If you're new no one expects it. But pretty soon you'll notice that, say, this guy is crazy aggressive or that you haven't seen that guy play a hand yet and it's been four orbits.

raton fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Aug 16, 2016

twodot
Aug 7, 2005

You are objectively correct that this person is dumb and has said dumb things

Terrorforge posted:

Is this true even if the stacks are of vastly different size? If they're at 7bb, should my play not be affected by whether I have 14bb or 140bb?
In a tournament, your stack will always impact your decisions, because you have to consider what's going to happen in the next hand (and particularly what's going to happen between now and the next time you pay blinds, and now and the next time the prize you are eligible increases). In a cash game, at any time you're not in a hand you can just put more money on the table, so in any given hand you shouldn't care about how much money you'll have left over. If you do care, that's a sign you need to play at lower stakes. A person sitting at a cash game with 14 bb needs to either get up or put more money on the table.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
There are people that play with small stacks on purpose in cash games, especially online, but in general they're kind of a blight. They way you play when you do that is way more speadsheety which really doesn't appeal to me. You're also more vulnerable to the rake unless you're playing high enough they the rake is getting capped preflop a lot. In not saying some of them don't make money but it's a pretty aberrant way to approach poker.

raton fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Aug 16, 2016

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on

Terrorforge posted:

As you might imagine, the issue here is that I don't have much of a read and even if I did, I'm not sure I would trust it. Apart from just being new, I have a nasty habit of assuming everyone is worse than me until they stove my face in. I'll make sure to actually say that in the future, though.
You should still have some information on this player.

How many hands have you played with this player? In general, how many hands is this player playing? Will they play hands like T3o (ten-three offsuit), or have they been playing only premium hands, like AT+ in this type of spot? How often do they 3bet preflop? If they had TT, do you think they would have re-raised preflop? How about 22 or 33? Have they been playing "fit or fold" (i.e. will only stay in a pot if they have a made hand), or have they been sticking around in the past with speculative hands and bluffs? Do they like playing drawing hands aggressively? Do they usually only play good draws (e.g. nut flush draws), or will they play anything that remotely has a chance (gut shots, over cards to the board) aggressively?

How aggressive has this player been postflop? Have they been betting and raising a lot, or have they just been check/calling? Have you ever seen this player show a bluff before? Have they ever raised a pot, and then given up on later streets before? Do you think this player is likely to keep betting on the turn and river? What does this player think a "good" hand here is - a single pair? Or do they only raise when they have top pair + top kicker, or even better? Would this player raise with 3X here because they're scared of a turn, or are they more likely to raise because they have a huge hand?

Have they ever overbet the pot before? What hands did they have when they overbet the pot?

If they haven't overbet the pot before, what does that tell you? How many hands have you seen from him/her? Is this a rare occurrence, or is this player just crazy?

These are the types of questions you need to keep asking yourself as you evaluate other players' play. If you answered these questions one way, I'd say call, and another way, I'd say fold.

In the absence of information, I'd say it can never be too bad to just call here, or even shove and get it in. Sometimes we're going to be beat. If our opponent shows up with something lovely like T3o that got there, buy back in, and just wait for the opportunity to win your money back; it won't take long.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
I think he wins two ways given the fairly weak call pre: flopping a set with 22 or 33 or binking two pair on the turn or river.

T3 is possible or course, but it's a lot easier for him to have JT there than T3.

I think 99% of Internet players would have reraised TT pre.

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on
Totally agree. It seems like there are far more scenarios where we have him beat.

paperchaseguy
Feb 21, 2002

THEY'RE GONNA SAY NO
He may have a moderately strong hand like KT. If he were TT he'd more likely be setting a trap. I would probably call here and leave him stuck on the turn. Probably not risking half his stack with a pair of tens, but if he doesn't then he looks weak. Another T on the turn and I'd be wary. Other than that I'd try to knock him out there.

Terrorforge
Dec 22, 2013

More of a furnace, really

Sheep-Goats posted:

A) If they only have a 7bb stack AND you're heads up then what good does your extra 143bb do?

Phil Gordon (and lots of other people) regularly mentions that he likes to play certain ways when he or his opponent is or isn't short stacked, so I thought if one player is short stacked and the other isn't, that might be relevant. As twodot says though, I guess there isn't really such a thing as being shortstacked in a cash game.

Sheep-Goats posted:

There are people that play with small stacks on purpose in cash games, especially online, but in general they're kind of a blight. They way you play when you do that is way more speadsheety which really doesn't appeal to me. You're also more vulnerable to the rake unless you're playing high enough they the rake is getting capped preflop a lot. In not saying some of them don't make money but it's a pretty aberrant way to approach poker.

How do they play, then? What advantage does reduced stack size give?

Imaduck posted:

You should still have some information on this player.

Actually, prior to this post I'd been paying no attention whatsoever to what anyone else was doing. I'd been so wrapped up in the mechanical aspects of play that I barely even considered the fact that other players have cards in their hands. I suppose I was getting a bit of a sense for when certain players were complete pushovers or seemed to be made of steel, and this one hadn't stuck out to me in either way.

I did start trying to figure my opponents out after reading this post, and unsurprisingly I've been doing a lot better. I've actually been going positive these last few days, in no small part because merely allowing myself to even entertain the possibility that the dude who just shoved half his stack into the pot might have good cards does wonders to shut up the little gremlin living in my ear constantly screaming "He's bluffing! He's bluffing! Go all in!" Speaking of which:


So what actually happened with the AA hand is that I let the gremlin get the better of me, told myself this dude is clearly bluffing, and shoved it all in. Unfortunately, they called with what turned out to be 33 and took me to the cleaners.

I realized almost immediately I should probably just have called, but in the end I learned two far more important lessons; don't assume that the best hand before the flop is still the best hand after the flop, and don't trust the loving gremlin.

Thanks for all the advice, btw

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
The money you make in poker is because, long term, your opponents make more mistakes than you do. If you both do the same right play in spot A and make the same mistake in similar but different spot B no net money changes hands if you play for long enough. If you warp the game so that, while in situation A you can't force a mistake from your opponent (because the situation is too clear cut), you can get him to gently caress up in B then you've made money (so long as you aren't paying too much to effect this change). Usually these gently caress ups come from understanding how he thinks/plays and swinging your game so that his faults open up more often and/or wider. Sometimes you find a way to play where he doesn't understand things very well. There are options.

Shortstackers often wait for places where they have the better hand preflop (on average) and try to get the money in preflop. Because good ones spend a lot of time thinking about "under the gun A8 is +EV if I'm in vs UTG+1, but not UTG+2" type stuff they know that game better than people with deep stacks. Another thing to consider is that if you see five cards you end up with a lot more two pair/flush/straights than when you just see a flop and have to make decisions from there (because you sometimes fold to protect your remaining money with a bigger stack). Finally there are a lot of spots, especially in modern aggressive games and doubly especially in the insano aggressive games circa 2008/2009 where the big stacks are trying to manipulate other big stacks into big mistakes by pumping up the pot early and making it hell for the other big stack to make it to showdown (in such a way that is balanced so that they can't just wait and trap). They want to do this as much as they can, which means more than card strength allows, which means just on their cards they cant justify that play, it's their cards plus their play long-term. In other words they often are in trouble at the beginning of a hand but force hell later to pay for this. But if your opponent is all in on the flop how are you going to make him err on the turn/river?

If you are the one short stacked guy at a table the other guys sometimes can't adjust to you because they have four to seven other guys with more money that they have to optimize against (because the goal is to make money, not to win hands). So even if they know what you're doing (many don't) they still can't justify a shift in strategy, which means the short stacker can keep saying "yeah I'll take that great preflop deal, I won't have to pay for it postflop like you would" over and over while everyone else has to keep handing him those freebies because they're trying to make money off of the rich men, not save nickels vs the poor.

As a big stack get spots a lot where you're trying to isolate and abuse another big stack that has already come in but there's a short stack in the blinds or whatever. So as a big stack you might raise the other big stack knowing have position and the option to lean on him on every street. The short stack behind you then shoves over knowing a) a lot of the time the other big stack will fold and then his cards seem/are probably better than yours, b) he can't be drawn into mistakes later, either he is ahead now or he isn't, c) if the other big stack calls and you then call he probably just got it in with the best hand and that first pot will go to him more often than 1/3rd of the time -- essentially you two are paying him for the chance to play against eachother, etc, d) if he thinks you are good he knows you know this and can bluff this way a certain percentage of the time as well.

Online you just leave the table after your double or triple up and find a new seat so you stay in this situation you've studied on. Also because there is less situational thought to it (while playing, while not playing you have to study and refine all in ranges a lot more than deep stack players because you can't use good post flop play as a profit source) so you can do this on more tables simultaneously than you could if deep stacked. There used to be (maybe still are?) shortstackers who would play 12-20 tables regularly, who had software that would sit them at new tables as they closed open ones, who had Autohotkey set up so instead of clicking a mouse they would hit like 1-5 for fold/call/bet/raise 3x/push or whatever, and would just kind of matrix out while grinding their custom made spreadsheets against the world.

At lower stakes you don't see many short stackers that are good. But there were/are some players that are very good at it.

tl:dr - imagine you could, if you wanted to, play a heads up basketball game wearing a 75lb backpack, but in compensation there was a second basket for you that was only seven feet off the ground. There are some obvious huge advantages in that dynamic and some obvious huge disadvantages and whether you do it or not depends a lot on who you're playing, how long you're playing, whether or not there's a girl watching, etc etc etc

raton fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Aug 19, 2016

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on

Terrorforge posted:

Actually, prior to this post I'd been paying no attention whatsoever to what anyone else was doing. I'd been so wrapped up in the mechanical aspects of play that I barely even considered the fact that other players have cards in their hands. I suppose I was getting a bit of a sense for when certain players were complete pushovers or seemed to be made of steel, and this one hadn't stuck out to me in either way.
At low-level games, your players are going to be making tons of mistakes and will be playing in very exploitable ways. They'll also do lots of really weird things, because they have no idea what they're doing. A big part of your advantage is going to be having some idea of where their biggest leaks lie, and asking yourself what the best way is to exploit them is.

quote:

So what actually happened with the AA hand is that I let the gremlin get the better of me, told myself this dude is clearly bluffing, and shoved it all in. Unfortunately, they called with what turned out to be 33 and took me to the cleaners.
Yeah, you can't be results oriented. Like we pointed out, a really strong hand was rare, but still a possibility. Rare things in poker happen all the time, so you just have to ask if this play was probably good or bad on the whole, and move on.

You should never think of any spot as an opponent "clearly bluffing" or "not bluffing." Good poker is all about understanding and playing ranges[/i. In this spot, your opponent is probably bluffing or playing a weaker hand more often than not, which makes it a good spot to get more chips in. However, they will also play this way with their very rare, really good hands. They happened to have it here, but that really doesn't tell you anything; we knew ahead of time that they could be doing this with a really good hand. The only question is, would they do this with a bad hand as well?

quote:

I realized almost immediately I should probably just have called, but in the end I learned two far more important lessons; don't assume that the best hand before the flop is still the best hand after the flop, and don't trust the loving gremlin.
Calling and raising are both reasonable plays here. You need to understand what the trade-offs are.

Calling
If your opponent has a strong hand (e.g. 33) - They're probably going to shove the turn, and you're going to be left with a decision. You'll probably have to call and lose all your chips.
If your opponent is bluffing with complete air - They might keep bluffing by shoving on the turn, which means you'll get all their chips - awesome!
If your opponent has a medium hand (e.g. top pair) - They will get it in on the turn on all non-scary cards, which means you win the money. They will probably slow down on most scare cards (cards bigger than their pair, connected cards), which means you might not get any more chips from them. If they have a weak hand (e.g. second pair), they probably won't put any more chips in after the flop.

Raising
If your opponent has a strong hand (e.g. 33) - They're going to call and you're going to lose all your chips.
If your opponent is bluffing with complete air - Your opponent will fold.
[i]If your opponent has a medium hand (e.g. top pair)
- Sometimes your opponent will decide that they've just got the best hand now and go with it. This is pretty common for new players to do, and you'll get their whole stack as a result. If their hand is too weak (e.g. second pair), they might fold.

So you see, with your opponent's exact hand, you were probably getting your money in no matter what, which means it doesn't matter if you raise or call.

What raising does is it makes your opponent stop bluffing, so if your read was that your opponent had bluffs here most of the time, raising is really bad. On the other hand, in the cases where your opponent has a hand like top pair, good kicker, they're probably likely to get the money in on the flop, but will be scared by a lot of turn and river cards. In that case, raising right now and getting the chips in is probably better.

To choose what the best line is, we would need to figure out what the balance is between % hands a player is bluffing in this spot vs. % hands a player has a medium strength hand they'll call with. This will tell us what the most profitable line is over time.

Of course, I'm leaving a lot of details out here, but this should give you an idea of how you should start to think about hands and choosing the right line of play.

Terrorforge
Dec 22, 2013

More of a furnace, really

Imaduck posted:

Yeah, you can't be results oriented. Like we pointed out, a really strong hand was rare, but still a possibility. Rare things in poker happen all the time, so you just have to ask if this play was probably good or bad on the whole, and move on.

Oh, absolutely. Like I said, I come from a TCG background so I'm well acquainted with the fact that taking the 90% line is always correct, even when that particular hand turns out to be part of the 10%.

Imaduck posted:

You should never think of any spot as an opponent "clearly bluffing" or "not bluffing." Good poker is all about understanding and playing [i]ranges[/i. In this spot, your opponent is probably bluffing or playing a weaker hand more often than not, which makes it a good spot to get more chips in. However, they will also play this way with their very rare, really good hands. They happened to have it here, but that really doesn't tell you anything; we knew ahead of time that they could be doing this with a really good hand. The only question is, would they do this with a bad hand as well?

Calling and raising are both reasonable plays here. You need to understand what the trade-offs are.

Yeah, that's kind of what I learned. My big mistake here wasn't going all in, it was going all in on a gut feeling without considering why the opponent acted the way they did.

I also realized pretty quickly that my gut feeling and my play were actually at odds; as you say, if I assumed they were bluffing I should have called, because they'll fold to a raise but I might be able to get them to put more money in the pot by calling. I think at the time I was just really unsure how to play postflop and later, so I made a lot of really bad decisions just because I didn't want to see any more cards.


Speaking of calling, when is a good time to call preflop? I'm particularly unsure what to do when I'm in late position with lukewarm hands I wouldn't mind opening with (A7, say), but someone in an early position raises before it gets to me.

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on

Terrorforge posted:

Speaking of calling, when is a good time to call preflop? I'm particularly unsure what to do when I'm in late position with lukewarm hands I wouldn't mind opening with (A7, say), but someone in an early position raises before it gets to me.
Earlier in the thread I think we mentioned that if you're a new player, if you only raise or fold preflop you'll be making the right play like 95% of the time.

Calling is inherently a weak play preflop. If you're at a 10 handed table and a player raises UTG and you call on the button, you're basically saying you have a mediocre hand. If you had a good hand, like AA, KK, or AK, you would pretty much always raise, right? So by calling, you're limiting the number of strong hands you could potentially have. Your opponent, on the other hand, can have all sorts of strong hands, since all he did was raise. This lets him represent a much stronger, wider range postflop, and he knows you have a weaker range, putting you at a huge disadvantage.

Also, if you call in that spot, notice that the blinds have a great price to tag along, and you're often going to end up in a multi-way pot. The more players in the pot, the tougher it is going to be to play. Our goal should be to play as many heads up pots as possible and avoid tough situations, so letting more players correctly play this hand for cheap is bad.

One thing new players don't usually understand is that you need a stronger hand to call than to raise. Say you're at a 10 handed table, and everyone folds to you on the button. You can reliably open a very wide range of hands, even things like K8o, because
A) You're playing against only two random hands, which you're a mathematical favorite against
B) You have fold equity; the blinds might just fold, and you can win the hand with no more effort
C) If the blinds call, you're in position, giving you an advantage
D) Being the aggressor means you can represent a wide, strong range of hands

Notice, however, if there's an UTG raiser, than only point C is true. Thus, you need to call with hands that play better postflop in order for it to be a profitable call.

Also notice that, because we have advertised that our hand is weak, it's easy for the blinds to raise us preflop if we call (this play is known as a "squeeze"). Hands like A7 are way too weak to call another preflop raise, so we'll be forced to fold.

Even if we know we'll make it to the flop, a hand like A7o is terrible to call with. Why? Well first of all, you're often dominated; the types of hands that a decent UTG player is going to raise with are often things like AA, AK, AQ, AJs, KK, QQ... If you both make your ace on the flop, you're going to be forced to put chips in the pot. But if your opponent has a strong ace (AK, AQ, AJ) already, you're going to lose a lot of chips. This is called reverse-implied odds; when you make your hand and you're beat, you stand to lose a significant pot.

On top of that, A7o doesn't have a lot of opportunity to win big pots. If your opponent has KK, and the flop comes A95 rainbow, the UTG player knows that there's a decent chance they're beat, since people like to play aces. They might put a bet or two out there, but they're almost never going to invest a lot of money in the pot.

So what hands should you call with? Well, you should be more inclined to call with hands that have good implied odds. That is, hands where if your opponent makes their hand, and you make yours, you can win a big pot. For example, a hand like 44 is great here. If your opponent has AA, and the flop comes 954 rainbow, you're very likely to win a lot of chips. Even if the pot went multiway, your trip fours are likely to be the best hand. If the flop instead comes AK9cc, it's very easy for you to get away from your fours. We like easy decisions.

Similarly, hands that can make big flushes and straights both give us good implied odds and are easier to play multiway. Hands like T9s and A3s are going to be way more profitable for us in the long run, since they usually won't get us into too much trouble, and can win big pots, so they're okay to call with. However, we should also consider raising these hands sometimes, since it lets us represent bigger hands as well, lets us be the aggressor, and makes it less likely we'll get raised or called by the blinds.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
Another illustration of "you need a stronger hand to call" comes when you consider dominance vs position. Say the devil offered you a deal and for a hundred hands you would either have a hand that dominates your foe (so one card, the higher one, is the same and you have a better kicker, like you have AK and he has AQ so he only really wins with a Q) or a hand where you were dominated but had position in that hand. Which deal do you take?

This is not an easy decision as both spots are so good for you. Personally I'm going with position.

Let's he raises say in middle position with AJ and I'm behind with A9. I don't know he has AJ of course, so he raise can be a lot of things there from my view. There are two aces left in the deck so the odds of another A coming are the same as flopping a set. The rest of the time I can hit a 9, he can hit a J, but by far the most common situation is we both miss. If i reraised him pre I'm going to bet most of the time when checked to, he's going to have nothing and fold. Once in a while he will raise me as a bluff but that's okay, were allowed to lose to good bluffs. If I called pre is he going to just check to me? (Often no.) If he bets and I just call will he give up? (Often no.) Will I be able to raise him on a pure bluff when he raised pre and then bet the flop and I have nothing very much? No.

What if he bets, I raise, he calls , all preflop, and the nightmare scenario happens and the A comes so he has A with a J kicker and I have A with a 7 kicker. Live or deep stacked enough it's not hard to get them to fold. They are not comfortable vs you with anything other than AK and sets really because your play makes seem like that's what you have as far as he's concerned. And if he does want to stay I really won't have that hard a time figuring out I need to go. If I just called though? Now I have no idea if he's just continuing aggression, has me beat, or whatever.

Position dominates dominance but a lot of your positional value is lost if you are not aggressive. Raising A8, getting reraised from the button and calling is awful most of the time, but facing a raise, having A8 and reraising and then playing poker isn't bad. Of course this doesn't mean that this is a good default idea necessarily but at least it's not bad.

If you regularly play dominated hands out of position you'll lose a ton of money, and while we would love to have a dominating hand in position of the remaining permutations dominating oop < dominated ip. If you go back through the post you'll see how it's hard to come up with a spot here where a) you play a hand preflop and b) it's a better idea to call with it than raise it.

Competent villains know all of this and will fight back (sometimes check raise flops they miss, stuff like that) but a lot of people aren't competent or aren't paying attention and even a competent player is usually doing this as a loss reduction strategy instead of thinking "I'll set up really awful spots for myself and then maybe win anyway lol."

It's possible that the obvious strategy can be overdone or that some genius will recognize it right away and make a shift that turns that strategy into an advantage for him. It's extremely unlikely this happens in a 1/2 live game or in the micros online. Sometimes in a search for the exception that proves the rule you end up confusing yourself as to why the rule is the rule to begin with.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
The most common situation where it's okay to call preflop in small stakes no limit Hold'em:

You have a hand that will either make dogshit or the nuts AND the pot is probably going to be multiway ("if I raise they're both going to call anyway.") If you make a flush or a straight with 65s you can still play vs. lots of people and win, wherereas pairing your A with AK you often aren't going to win if there has been betting and you're at the river with two other guys. Hands like 33 play like this multiway too.

You want people to call your bets when you have a better hand than then. (This is only part of the reason you might bet so I'm talking about certain situations now -- fairly common ones, but still.) If you have a hand like a flush usually you are so strong that you want everyone calling your bets.* So why build a situation where there are less people to do it? You want like three people gritting their teeth and clicking call while whispering "pot odds" to themselves so you 3x every dime you put in there.








*Of course "I haz flush I ween" can be a disaster if you ignore the board. If you played like you have a flush and the board is K:h:T:d:4:h:T:h:K:c: and he's excited to get money in you're a hot dipped poo poo if you're happy about having Q:h:J:h: or even A:h:Q:h: or whatever. On the turn you should have been positive if a little wary, but by the river and he's still betting is pretty ominous. However if it's something like A87K4 and you have the flush you should be thrilled into heaven with all the chodes that now have to call with 56, AK, sometimes AQ/AJ, sets, 87, etc.

raton fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Aug 21, 2016

Terrorforge
Dec 22, 2013

More of a furnace, really
So I've been having a lot of fun with poker for the last month or so, and I just started my HM2 trial and moved up to 0.02/0.05 stakes. Thanks to the tracker showing me just how wide/weak most players are at this level I've been able to make a tidy profit bullying people out of their money with light 3bets and bluff cbets. It seems like the average 5NL fish will fold like a spring-loaded deck chair the moment you throw any amount of money at them, which is obviously great for business but brings up a new problem:

How do I get these people to pay me off when I actually hit the flop? Betting low feels so transparent, and most of the time they fold regardless. Do I try anyway? Do I just bet the same as when I'm bluffing and hope they'll call with second best? Do I check down and hope they'll improve or go for a bluff on the turn or river?

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on
Just keep betting. If they fold too much, bluff more, you'll make money from your bluffs. Try not to slow play unless you have really big hands and your opponents will often take a stab at the board.

Bet sizing is one of the trickier parts of poker. You can experiment with smaller sizes and see what it does for you against these players (bad players usually aren't paying that much attention), but make sure what you're doing make mathematical sense as well. If you bet 10% of the pot, pretty much every draw has odds to call, including things like a single over card. If your opponents are calling those bets correctly, then you might need to adjust your pricing.

Conversely, if you're bluffing a lot of the time because they fold too much, then yeah, see if they'll fold to smaller bets. There's no use risking an 80% pot bet when a 50% pot bet will fold out just as many hands. We want to make our opponents make mistakes for the cheapest price possible. If they're still folding to 25% pot size bets, then just do that.

Some of these really tight players will also never fold once they have what they thing is a strong hand. So if you have a big hand and they call your first bet, keep betting big and see if they'll call you down and pay you off. You can make your bet sizing bigger here, since they're often not folding to any < pot sized bet once they've called the first time.

Against weak/tight players that are folding anytime they don't have a strong made hand, it's going to be a slow grind. Typically, you'll make more money from players that call too much instead of those that call too little. Still, there's money to be made by just wearing them down.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
There are very few spots in poker where you can have it both ways.

The amount of potential money to be made in a given hand is a consideration of the expected value of your hand (which is how often it wins times how much money it wins on average) and the expected value of your bluffs (basically how much of the end pot that he owns that he will give up to you due to aggression). Note that both of these depend on what range of hands villain plays (and how he plays them). If you have a table of samey villians it's easier to generalize and just say you have one amalgamated foe to beat out of a profit. If this foe plays too wide a range and/or carries it to showdown too much your bluff ev is almost nothing. If he plays too small a range and will not carry it deep into a hand without a guarantee your value ev is almost nothing.

People fix these obvious weaknesses in their game as you move up but don't try to force value where structurally there just isn't any. If people play a multidimensional game you end up in lots of interesting spots. If they play a rigid one dimensional game then they have told you how to beat them in an optimal way.

Now let's assume you have someone who is thinking a little bit and not just set mining or whatever. The best single piece of advice I've heard for this spot is "we're generally okay letting people draw to two outs." Consider their range of hands. Note that if they have bottom pair they have five outs to beat you, of they have an open ender eight. Those hands don't get free cards. We are okay letting them draw to two but not five. The game then becomes "how much can I charge and keep them in." A good place to start for that is on wet boards you can charge about 3/4 pot (kinda wet) to full pot (soaking wet). On dry boards you can charge 1/2 pot to 3/4 pot (depending mostly on how much he thinks you're full of poo poo, which mostly will depend on how high the board is, since he will assume you have paint if you have raised preflop -- in short a high flop that you hit gets around 1/2 pot, a low flop that you hit, so like A8 on 862 or binking a set on a low board) closer to 3/4. The reason bet sizes change vs board texture is that board texture largely determines what holdings he can have (no straight or flush draws he either has 5 outs, 2 outs, or he has your beat, almost all of the time). E: I assume you know what a dry and a wet board is, if not just ask. Against actively engaged players you might want to use other factors over board texture to help you with flop bet sizing (personal history, leveling, obvious statistical weaknesses in their game) but against your typical semi attentive low stakes player I think flop texture is your best overall guide, along with the obvious SPR considerations where they apply, of course.

On the turn there is only one more card to come so your exposure to getting drawn out on is less. However it is very difficult to generalize turn play in NLHE. In many respects the turn is the heart and soul of two card poker so always give turn decisions a lot of careful thought.

Remember the goal is always always always to show as much profit as you can on average. Never get distracted from your profit motive, the minute you lose that you have no useful rudder on how to go ahead in a hand. (And, of course, profit is win - loss, so don't go apeshit on the win column if it's poison for the loss column). In aggregate extraction.

raton fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Oct 4, 2016

Terrorforge
Dec 22, 2013

More of a furnace, really

Imaduck posted:

Conversely, if you're bluffing a lot of the time because they fold too much, then yeah, see if they'll fold to smaller bets. There's no use risking an 80% pot bet when a 50% pot bet will fold out just as many hands. We want to make our opponents make mistakes for the cheapest price possible. If they're still folding to 25% pot size bets, then just do that.

Yeah, it's looking like 1/2 pot is having about the same effect as 2/3. Might see if I can push it even further, but already people seem to be at least considering calling (sometimes they tank then fold rather than snap-fold) so idk how much further I can go. Would depend on individual opponents, I suppose.

Imaduck posted:

Against weak/tight players that are folding anytime they don't have a strong made hand, it's going to be a slow grind. Typically, you'll make more money from players that call too much instead of those that call too little. Still, there's money to be made by just wearing them down.

Speaking of weak/tight, I've been struggling to find the terminology for these people. Is someone who plays loose preflop and Fit or Fold post really weak/tight?

Imaduck posted:

Just keep betting.

Sheep-Goats posted:

There are very few spots in poker where you can have it both ways.

Thanks. I suspected this would be the case, but now I can proceed with confidence.

Sheep-Goats posted:

E: I assume you know what a dry and a wet board is, if not just ask.

It is my understanding that the "wetness" of a board is how conducive it to someone having a huge hand, or at least to be drawing to a huge hand, usually a straight or flush. Does it apply to other hands, though? Is a paired board or one that just has some high cards (say AQ9 rainbow) considered wet?

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on

Terrorforge posted:

Yeah, it's looking like 1/2 pot is having about the same effect as 2/3. Might see if I can push it even further, but already people seem to be at least considering calling (sometimes they tank then fold rather than snap-fold) so idk how much further I can go. Would depend on individual opponents, I suppose.
Right, using the caveats that Sheep-goats put out there. Basically, if you're trying to grow as a player, you shouldn't have just one bet size. Instead, you should have a some conditions that make you more or less likely to bet, and conditions that make you more or less likely to bet big or small. I only used the specific numbers as an example, as in "if a player folds more often to small bets than they should, that should encourage you to bet smaller than you normally would and bet more often then you normally would."

quote:

Speaking of weak/tight, I've been struggling to find the terminology for these people. Is someone who plays loose preflop and Fit or Fold post really weak/tight?
So that'd be more weak/loose, but your description is really better. If I were putting a note on a player like that, I might put something like

"Likes to limp in with a wide range of hands from all positions, including low non-suited connectors and Q7o type hands. Will usually call a single raise preflop with their entire range. Typically plays fit or fold postflop, but will call you down even if they only have bottom pair. Rarely raises preflop or bets postflop unless they have a strong made hand."

Along with some example hand histories. Avoid simplistic labels; the more hands you have with someone, the more you should be able to describe their play.

(EDIT: You might hear the player you're talking about called a "loose nit," meaning they play lots of hands preflop, but fold pretty easily when put under pressure. You really should try to get more descriptive as you play with the player)

Imaduck fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Oct 5, 2016

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on

quote:

It is my understanding that the "wetness" of a board is how conducive it to someone having a huge hand, or at least to be drawing to a huge hand, usually a straight or flush. Does it apply to other hands, though? Is a paired board or one that just has some high cards (say AQ9 rainbow) considered wet?
Basically, you want to think about :
1. How often does my opponent connect with this board?
2. When they connect with this board, do they often have a made hand, or a drawing hand?
3. When they connect with this board, how often is their hand (or the hand they're drawing to) the best hand? How long will it remain the best hand on a turn or river?

I just grabbed it randomly, but this article seems like a decent introduction to flop texture.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
Wetness is a kind of volatility. A wet flop is one where there are a lot of ways for the likely current best hand to turn into a non winner. Wet = I have top pair top kicker now but on the turn half the loving deck is going to make me wonder if I'm still the likely winner. Dry = just flopped a full house and there's no way really for him to have trips / had QQ but a AKx flopped so either he's going to win every time or I am. Basically on dry flops the turn and the river cards are often irrelevant, whereas on wet flops they're likely to be important.

It doesn't have anything to do with big hands although in NLHE there is a correlation (in other forms of poker like PLO flops can be very wet without the underdog making a monster to win pretty frequently, partly because straights are much more vulnerable in that game, partly because it's easier to make a better two pair than villain in that game, etc).

Very wet flop
9:d:8:d:6:h:
J:h:T:c:3:c:
Q:s:T:h:8:c:
A:h:9:d:6:c:
A:h:A:c:5:s:
Very dry flop

raton fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Oct 6, 2016

faarcyde
Dec 5, 2005
what the hell did you trade Jay Buhner for!?

Terrorforge posted:

Let's try this thing:


I'm playing .01/.02 cash games on PokerStars. I'm small blind and have AhAd in the hole.

Preflop, everyone folds to me. I raise to 3xBB. Big blind calls.

Flop comes up 10c2d3h. I bet 1/3 the pot (2xBB), thinking I probably still have the best hand and might be able to entice them to put more money in.

Big blind immediately raises to 2.5x the pot (20xBB).

What do I do now? Have I made any mistakes up to this point? How badly dig I just mangle the jargon?

e: in case you don't feel like counting, at this point there are 27BB in the pot, and calling would cost 18BB
I've been retired for a couple years now but I will dust off the ole strat hat.

1) Your pre-flop bet size was good but you want to bet at least half pot on the flop when you continuation bet. There are spots where betting very small could be awesome but as a standard half pot is good. Half pot gets some value but it also works well as a bluff if you have air. When you bet so small you are giving him a good price to catch up to you for cheap or you are not getting enough value when he has a second best hand.

2) Always be thinking about the texture of the board when you are evaluating a hand. It seems like you are doing that given you provided the suits on the flop. One of my first "a ha" moments as a player was considering the combination of hands someone can have on the flop. If we take your example of T32, the answer is very few. Calling in the big blind, he can have a lot of hands, but it is unlikely that he has any two pair hands (for example he isn't calling with T3o, probably). So it makes the range of hands he can have very slim when he check raises. Really the only hands he can have that beat you are 22, 33, TT (which is prob reraising preflop), T3s, T2s, 32s (the last three a lot less likely). With all that said, he probably has a ton of Tx in his range. AT, KT, QT, JT, T9, T8 and then maybe all the suited Tx. He can also have some draws like 45s, A5, etc.

3) Assuming you have 100 blind or less effective stacks, you have two options (folding is not one of them). We can either call his flop raise and let him hang himself on the turn when he commits himself or just get it in now. Both options have merit because if he does have, let's say QT, he will definitely get it in on the flop but if a card like a king comes on the turn he might get away from it. It is really a question of how often do you think he is bluffing or semi bluffing. Since we are talking about a 1 cent / 2 cent game, I would say the chances are pretty high. I think I would generally call the flop and get it in on the turn or if he checks the turn then ship it myself.

4) Just as an end note, always be thinking in terms of ranges and not individual hands. A common rookie mistake is people say "it feels like he has a set here". While of course that is possible, we need to play against the entirety of his hand distribution and not freak occurrences when he smashes the board. Ranges are everywhere...someone's checking range, their flop betting range, their river raising range, etc. Once you start thinking in those terms, it will open up a lot of possibilities.

Back when I was coaching I charged $200 an hour. That took me about 15 minutes so that was $50 of free advice :-p

Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

This is Urotsuki.
Hello, I was wondering what average rake at a B&M casino would be for 3/6 limit hold em and SHUT UP I THINK IT'S FUN OK. :v: I'm not really profitable yet, and until I get done paying for lessons, I'd like to give myself the best chance possible.

Also: what's toking typically like where you play? Out here it's usually 1 for a multi way that goes to the flop and two if you drag a(n arbitrarily) large pot, but again, limit player. I definitely understand the dealers don't make much as is, but I also don't want to constantly tip the waiter 35% because I don't know any better.

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
Figure your average table drops somewhere between 80-120 bucks an hour, something like that. Your share (if you're not notably loose or tight) is going to be around a ninth of that. 3/6 limit can be pretty hard to beat the rake on.

I was a bartender before and I apologize to the dealers out there but tipping can be a real problem for staying +EV if you're playing 1/2 or 2/4. At those stakes I only generally tip when I win a a ~100 BB pot or greater and I tip one dollar. I will occasionally tip if I've won a bunch of smaller pots and feel bad about it. If the table goes short handed (either six or five or less, depends on the place) you can request a rake reduction from the dealer (who will ask the floor). I always tip a dollar on being granted the reduction.

It's a maxim among dealers in Vegas that the 1/2 tables tip better than the 2/5 tables generally do. This is because grinding for a living becomes reasonable at 2/5 so those tables have a lot more players who flat out don't tip.

I do tip dealers that are friendly to me way more than those that aren't. When I was in Vegas playing a lot I had some dealers that hated me and some that seemed to really like me. The only difference was probably a bad run at the outset or me being in a bad mood, but whatever. At least I shower before I go in.

raton fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Nov 15, 2016

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
The best poker dealer in the world is a ~35 year old Hispanic woman (half Dominican I think? I forgot, she also looks 7-8 years younger) who works at the Venetian. She's at least 30% faster than the next fastest dealer in there (and almost everyone in the Venetian is world class), talks quick enough and nice enough to always lift the table which is a huge boon in a room with a couple of grinders at most tables, never makes an error and almost never breaks her pace, and she knows almost everyone's name that's in there semiregularly. There are a lot of great dealers out there but she's supernatural. Can't remember her name right now but if you're there and she sits down to deal you'll know it's her.

Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

This is Urotsuki.
Woof. That does explain a little bit of the slow bleed, at least. I should start setting tips aside into its own category for ROI tracking instead of just a flat semi hourly record, and also the dealers are going to hate me. :negative:

Oh well, that's poker!

raton
Jul 28, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
It's okay to just try to play well and accept that you're losing money to the rake or whatever too. If you're trying to make money you should probably be looking at around 5/10 limit (at least -- that usually means 8/16 because you don't usually see 5/10 limit, but maybe you can beat the rake at 4/8) anyway -- the rake is big issue with profitability in the smallest games a room sets usually.

raton fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Nov 15, 2016

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on
Yeah, it's up to you if you're grinding to make money or just to play and prove you can, but if you are winning 5 or 6 small pots an hour and tipping a dealer every time, it's pretty hard to be profitable in a raked 1/2 NL or low stakes limit game. If you don't want to tip as much as other folks, don't feel obligated to. At the same time, don't feel like you have to maximize EV either if you're just there to have a good time.

Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

This is Urotsuki.

Sheep-Goats posted:

It's okay to just try to play well and accept that you're losing money to the rake or whatever too. If you're trying to make money you should probably be looking at around 5/10 limit (at least -- that usually means 8/16 because you don't usually see 5/10 limit, but maybe you can beat the rake at 4/8) anyway -- the rake is big issue with profitability in the smallest games a room sets usually.

I think they have 5/10, but that's gonna require, what, 200 to sit down and 1500 as a total bankroll? I don't remember offhand but I think 40 and 300 BB are right to cover limit swings.

If I have 1500 I don't need the 5-7 an hour :stare:

Terrorforge
Dec 22, 2013

More of a furnace, really
Thanks for all the advice last time around, guys. Here's another hand that's vexing me:


Playing .02/.05 6-Max on PS. Effective stacks at 100bb. Villain is 13/11 over ~30 hands. Not a huge sample obviously, but shaping up to be pretty tight-aggressive.

Villain opens to 3bb from UTG+1. I call from SB with 5:s:5:d: intending to setmine, thinking that a TAG is fairly likely to pay me off when I hit, either by hitting a strong but second-best hand of his own, or trying to bluff. BB folds and we go heads up.

Flop comes J:c:9:h:5:c:

I've hit my set, so I figure I want to get the money in. But how? Donking doesn't seem like a great idea, because what does call-donk on a board like this signal other than "I've got a big hand"? So I check, hoping he's got a Jack, a pocket pair or some overcards he's willing to bluff with. And indeed, he bets 3/4 pot. And here's the million dollar (or, well, $5) question: call or raise?

I'm a bit scared to just call because of the flush draw, but i think that's kind of chickenshit? I doubt a TAG opens a ton of suited connectors from that position. But then, if he doesn't have the flush draw, isn't a club going to make him shut down anyway? My call-check-call would certainly rep the kind of timidly played flush draw you might expect from a relative unknown at 5NL, right? So maybe I should just try to get the money in right now.

But on the other hand I'm worried that a check-raise would fold out all his bluffs, weak pairs and maybe even TPTK. Since I doubt he'd open J9, let alone J5 or 95, that pretty much only leaves me with QQ+ plus maybe Jx and club draws for value. Since the only thing that outright beats me here is exactly pocket Jacks or 9s I suppose this is a profitable play, but is it optimal? Does it make me more money overall than keeping his bluffs in and giving him the chance to improve or bluff again?


And of course, did I make a mistake getting here? Should i have donked after all? Should I even have taken this setmine?

paperchaseguy
Feb 21, 2002

THEY'RE GONNA SAY NO
My strategy is to bet when ahead, and make the opponent's risky plays expensive. It's very unlikely he has JJ or 99, so you probably have the best hand. There's a lot of cards that could come up on the turn where I'd have to worry about flush or straight draws (almost a 50% chance of that happening). So I'd raise here and try to end the pot now.

I'd put him at KQs, and if they're clubs you really want it to be expensive to try to suck out a flush draw.

paperchaseguy fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Nov 20, 2016

Imaduck
Apr 16, 2007

the magnetorotational instability turns me on

Terrorforge posted:

But on the other hand I'm worried that a check-raise would fold out all his bluffs, weak pairs and maybe even TPTK.
Your opponent either:
A) Has a huge hand that beats us (JJ, 99)
B) Has a big hand that doesn't beat us (e.g. QQ+, AJ, KJ, J9s)
C) Has a big drawing hand (e.g. AcTc+, QTs, etc)
D) Has a weaker hand, weak draw, or drawing/combo hand (e.g. 8c9c)
E) Has nothing

Having a huge hand is rare. If he does, we got unlucky, lose a big pot, and move on with our lives. Against some players we could maybe get away from a ton of aggression on the flop (3bet+), but I'm typically not in the business of folding a flopped set on a wet board.

For big hands, do you really think he's folding top pair, top kicker (AJ) here to a check raise? If you were check-raised in this spot, would you fold TPTK?

I think if you check raise here, your opponent has to figure that at least some of the time you have flush draws, straight draws, combo draws, and some jacks. If your opponent thinks you have some of those hands in your range when you check raise, then he or she should be able to call you at least on the flop most of the time with AJ, and probably with hands like QQ+, KJ, J9s, flush draws with overs, and straight draws as well. The fact that this flop is wet makes your check raising range bigger, therefore your opponent should be able to put you on more bluffs and draws here. At the same time, if they do have AJ and make it past the flop, they're probably going to slow down on later streets if any scare cards (straight or flush cards) come on the turn or river. So if we want to extract value from AJ, we need to do it now.

If your opponent truly is folding AJ to a check raise, then you should be check raising this opponent all the time with basically any two cards that remotely connect to the board. They're putting themselves in a very exploitable spot if they're folding big made hands to a small amount of aggression on a wet board.

If your opponent does have a big draw, you need to start charging them to see more cards now. We're out of position, so if we just call the flop and check turn, there's a decent chance that our opponent checks back and gets both a free turn and river card! We need to bet now to give our opponent a bad price to draw out on us.

If your opponent has air, yeah, he or she will probably fold here. That's probably okay; if you just flat call, if a straight card or a flush card comes on the turn, your opponent is probably going to stop bluffing. Even if a straight or flush card doesn't come, there's a decent chance your opponent is going to stop bluffing on the turn once you call. Unless you think your opponent is very aggressive post-flop and will basically 3 barrel bluff with any two cards on this board, you can't really can't on making money with a bunch of big bluffs here. You have a very strong hand, not just a bluff catcher. You're going to make money from some of your opponent's value betting range, not just their bluffs! Therefore, you want to get more chips in the pot here.

One other way to think about it is this: you have the 3rd strongest hand possible on the flop. If you're not check raising for value with this hand, what hands are you check raising for value with? None of them? Are you only check raising with bluffs and draws? If that's the case, you're putting yourself in a very exploitable spot; your opponents can always go over the top whenever you check raise, and you'll have to fold. We have to have some value and some bluffs here to keep things balanced and keep our opponents guessing.

I could go on and on here, but the point is, this is a textbook spot to check-raise the flop. Do it.

quote:

And of course, did I make a mistake getting here? Should i have donked after all? Should I even have taken this setmine?
You probably shouldn't donk bet here. What does it accomplish? If your opponent has nothing, they will fold. If your opponent connected with the board in any way (pair+ or draw), they're already going to bet. Donking just prevents your opponent from bluffing. On top of that, if you're always donk-betting when you flop a big hand, you're basically advertising what you've got here. Better to keep your opponent guessing.

You could argue that we donk here to not give our opponent a free card, but most players will bet their drawing hands here, so we're going to get paid by them anyway, and we get to check raise them. So we don't have to worry about giving our opponent a free card; they're either going to bet their draw, or they don't have a draw and they're only drawing to hands that don't beat us. In the latter case, we'd rather give them a free card so they can maybe hit and feel like they've caught up (e.g. AK catches a K on the turn).

I'd only donk bet against a very specific type of opponent here: basically super weak players that will never bluff, won't bet draws, and won't even bet most made hands here, but is willing to call if I bet. These players are pretty rare though, but are good money if you're at a table with one since they're very exploitable and probably going to make a lot of mistakes.

It's okay to mix in weird moves like donks every once in awhile, but the standard play here should be check raise, or check and bet turn if it checks through on the flop.

Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

This is Urotsuki.
The simpler thing to note is that, if you think he has a flush draw, you still have a very good redraw (10 outs) if he hits on the turn. Freak two pair leaves him with six outs, and if he's unlucky enough to have the case five, then laffo.

Literally the only hands I'd worry about here are JJ or 99, and since that's a very specific range, just go ahead and get the money in now. You're in a great position, and if the turn goes bad, you're still stuck to the end.

AARO
Mar 9, 2005

by Lowtax

faarcyde posted:

It is really a question of how often do you think he is bluffing or semi bluffing. Since we are talking about a 1 cent / 2 cent game, I would say the chances are pretty high. I think I would generally call the flop and get it in on the turn or if he checks the turn then ship it myself.


I will say in 2016, even at 2nl, there are tons of multi tabling nits playing 14/11 at six max that just wait for the nuts and then bet like crazy. Perhaps these players are bots or maybe their just Ukrainian grinders trying to make $10 profit a day.

Overal, today the average player at 2nl (I mean the regs) is about what a 50nl player was in 2009. There are actually people grinding out at the lowest stakes. Poker is in a really sad state these days.

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Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

This is Urotsuki.

AARO posted:

I will say in 2016, even at 2nl, there are tons of multi tabling nits playing 14/11 at six max that just wait for the nuts and then bet like crazy. Perhaps these players are bots or maybe their just Ukrainian grinders trying to make $10 profit a day.

Overal, today the average player at 2nl (I mean the regs) is about what a 50nl player was in 2009. There are actually people grinding out at the lowest stakes. Poker is in a really sad state these days.

We were doing so well online, and then loving Bush and the loving Port Act. :eng99:

e: With that being said, I think there's still money to be made in low stakes B&M multi-table tourneys. How much depends on the consistency of your play, of which mine is not very.

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