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mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

Jabor posted:

So we've basically come full-circle back to the "no evasion, no way to protect itself, no value if it dies right away" reason people thought it was underwhelming when it first got spoiled?

No. It's still the best at what it does. Beats down to close for fair decks. Those decks just happen to be bad right now.

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L0cke17
Nov 29, 2013

AgentSythe posted:

Man, if only there were a deck that played both of these...


:twisted:

:getin:

Speaking of moats and rest in peaces, I might be picking up the pieces for enchantress soon. That's gonna be all sorts of fun.

Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005
Goyf is a really good card in a vacuum but the big hitters in the meta right now all work around it. The best Delver is BURg and has pyro and angler as better critters, Miracles doesn't run goyf, Eldrazi stand up against Goyf really well, etc.

Goyf is just a really great beater. We have another one of those now in Angler, and legacy, with few exceptions, has always demanded that creatures bring a lot more value than power/toughness to the table. The fact that it's gone on so long as The Legacy Creature is testament to how good it is, but he relies on the other 56 cards to make Be a Big Beater good.

Legacy is a format where there are entire decks built around amazing creatures that are bad legacy decks (Nic Fit) so when you say Goyf isn't the best in legacy any more it's not like that's saying goyf is terrible.

Legacy is like 3 good decks (Miracles, Best Delver Variant At The Moment, Rotating Third Option) and 700 terrible decks, and Goyf is still amazing in all but 3 decks at the moment.

Johnny Five-Jaces
Jan 21, 2009


Let's talk about the objectively best eternal format, which is Pauper

What is everyone doing in pauper? I'm not particularly revolutionary and have been trying out elvish vanguard, shaving a few visionaries and sometimes a priest of titania. It has been Pretty Good but just making a big idiot isn't that interesting.

i've also tried making UG Canadian Threshold work, and as sweet of a card as Temporal Spring is, it is not going well

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



Isn't pauper currently being broken by peregrine drake

just rust
Oct 23, 2012

I was having a good time trying out Thraben Inspector and Angelic Purge in the various Skyfisher/Kuldotha/Kitty builds after SOI.
At this point I kind of want to just wait and see how badly Peregrine Drake messes up the format before stepping into anymore leagues.

suicidesteve
Jan 4, 2006

"Life is a maze. This is one of its dead ends.


AgentSythe posted:

Let's talk about the objectively best eternal format, which is Pauper

What is everyone doing in pauper? I'm not particularly revolutionary and have been trying out elvish vanguard, shaving a few visionaries and sometimes a priest of titania. It has been Pretty Good but just making a big idiot isn't that interesting.

i've also tried making UG Canadian Threshold work, and as sweet of a card as Temporal Spring is, it is not going well

Mostly not playing it because Peregrine Drake is ruining it.

UG really needs a land that has island and forest types so you can get an island with with Land Grant. I've been trying to brew something up that's close to old school Gro lists with like 12 lands but it really badly needs a good threat and the aforementioned dual.

mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

Sigma-X posted:

Goyf is a really good card in a vacuum but the big hitters in the meta right now all work around it. The best Delver is BURg and has pyro and angler as better critters, Miracles doesn't run goyf, Eldrazi stand up against Goyf really well, etc.

Goyf is just a really great beater. We have another one of those now in Angler, and legacy, with few exceptions, has always demanded that creatures bring a lot more value than power/toughness to the table. The fact that it's gone on so long as The Legacy Creature is testament to how good it is, but he relies on the other 56 cards to make Be a Big Beater good.

Legacy is a format where there are entire decks built around amazing creatures that are bad legacy decks (Nic Fit) so when you say Goyf isn't the best in legacy any more it's not like that's saying goyf is terrible.

Legacy is like 3 good decks (Miracles, Best Delver Variant At The Moment, Rotating Third Option) and 700 terrible decks, and Goyf is still amazing in all but 3 decks at the moment.

Lands and ANT are both still T1 legacy decks. I agree with the rest of what you're saying though.

Johnny Five-Jaces
Jan 21, 2009


suicidesteve posted:

Mostly not playing it because Peregrine Drake is ruining it.

UG really needs a land that has island and forest types so you can get an island with with Land Grant. I've been trying to brew something up that's close to old school Gro lists with like 12 lands but it really badly needs a good threat and the aforementioned dual.

Trop should be a common, imo. easily the worst blue dual


i haven't really been playing online, just in paper with some bros. does peregrine drake really ruin the format? needing to have five lands already do do mnemonic wall/ghostly flicker poo poo seems a lot worse than cloud of faeries

suicidesteve
Jan 4, 2006

"Life is a maze. This is one of its dead ends.


AgentSythe posted:

Trop should be a common, imo. easily the worst blue dual


i haven't really been playing online, just in paper with some bros. does peregrine drake really ruin the format? needing to have five lands already do do mnemonic wall/ghostly flicker poo poo seems a lot worse than cloud of faeries

It doesn't need bounce lands, Familiars, or mulitple colors and Peregrine Drake, Archaeomancer, Ghostly Flicker is infinite with no other help.

Johnny Five-Jaces
Jan 21, 2009


suicidesteve posted:

It doesn't need bounce lands, Familiars, or mulitple colors and Peregrine Drake, Archaeomancer, Ghostly Flicker is infinite with no other help.

oh right. ghostly flicker is two things

lol

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010

:science:
Soiled Meat

AgentSythe posted:

Let's talk about the objectively best eternal format, which is Pauper

What is everyone doing in pauper? I'm not particularly revolutionary and have been trying out elvish vanguard, shaving a few visionaries and sometimes a priest of titania. It has been Pretty Good but just making a big idiot isn't that interesting.

i've also tried making UG Canadian Threshold work, and as sweet of a card as Temporal Spring is, it is not going well

I'm not doing poo poo in Pauper but I really should because my store does a Pauper FNM once a month and it's a fuckload cheaper to get into than everything else. I'm halfway to an Izzet Blitz deck except people are telling me it's bad? I also have a bunch of Pauper-eligible Goblins and could maybe come up with a list that uses them but I've been too lazy.

Johnny Five-Jaces
Jan 21, 2009


okay here's the list

the 8-whack guys
some lightning bolts
i think goblin grenade?
some goblins

eSporks
Jun 10, 2011

Faeries was my deck, looks like its time to load up mtgo again.

C-Euro posted:

I'm not doing poo poo in Pauper but I really should because my store does a Pauper FNM once a month and it's a fuckload cheaper to get into than everything else. I'm halfway to an Izzet Blitz deck except people are telling me it's bad? I also have a bunch of Pauper-eligible Goblins and could maybe come up with a list that uses them but I've been too lazy.
Are they using mtgo rules, or paper rules? If its paper rules play high tide.

mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!
Why should I be playing City of Solitude over Defense Grid in ANT?

Jabor
Jul 16, 2010

#1 Loser at SpaceChem
Because sometimes you don't want to wait for them to tap out for something before going off.

mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

Jabor posted:

Because sometimes you don't want to wait for them to tap out for something before going off.

Ok but does that outweigh the downside of 2 vs 3 mana and having to fetch a Trop vs Wasteland decks?

Johnny Five-Jaces
Jan 21, 2009


maybe

how about you play some games and find out

Rogue0071
Dec 8, 2009

Grey Hunter's next target.

mcmagic posted:

Why should I be playing City of Solitude over Defense Grid in ANT?

Stops your opponent from using top (relevant with counterbalance and with miracles floating countermagic on top of their deck to protect it from discard).

mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

Rogue0071 posted:

Stops your opponent from using top (relevant with counterbalance and with miracles floating countermagic on top of their deck to protect it from discard).

Yup, thats the reason. I didn't realize it stops activated abilities.

Star Man
Jun 1, 2008

There's a star maaaaaan
Over the rainbow
The most interesting thing about City of Solitude is that it was illustrated by the same artist that did several Animorphs book covers.

Thisuck
Apr 29, 2012

Spoilers
Pillbug
Oh god City of Solitude is on the reserve list, better get a few copies now before it pulls a Moat. Also it was Visions only?

Edit: I thought it was reprinted in 4th or 5th for some reason Apparently I got it confused with Crumble for w/e reason.

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012
So I'd like to talk about a decklist today. Specifically, this decklist: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/420679#online

I'm mainly interested in sideboard choices and the Jund matchup. Why run Linvala in the board when Pod isn't a card anymore? For the mirror/Infect? What can this deck do to not get pasted by Jund? What decks are Eidolon and Teeg being brought in against (Eidolon especially, isn't Storm dead)? Is the deck really so reliant on the combo that Twisted Image is a good sideboard card for Spellskite?

L0cke17
Nov 29, 2013

AgentSythe posted:

Let's talk about the objectively best eternal format, which is Pauper

What is everyone doing in pauper? I'm not particularly revolutionary and have been trying out elvish vanguard, shaving a few visionaries and sometimes a priest of titania. It has been Pretty Good but just making a big idiot isn't that interesting.

i've also tried making UG Canadian Threshold work, and as sweet of a card as Temporal Spring is, it is not going well

I'm running a grixis or 4 color (depending on the win con I want) teachings/skred control list. I really really like curse of the bloody tome vs the peregrine Drake list in particular, since they can't combo you if you mill their 1 guy that mills. Also it's just sweet in general. If I'm playing 4 color, it's for sprout spawning to have a win con I can tutor for. Either way, I think I want to be playing a boatload of removal, some crypt incursions and winning with jaces erasure or curse of the bloody tome.

suicidesteve
Jan 4, 2006

"Life is a maze. This is one of its dead ends.


TheKingofSprings posted:

Why run Linvala in the board when Pod isn't a card anymore? For the mirror/Infect? What can this deck do to not get pasted by Jund? What decks are Eidolon and Teeg being brought in against (Eidolon especially, isn't Storm dead)? Is the deck really so reliant on the combo that Twisted Image is a good sideboard card for Spellskite?

Pod is still a deck it just doesn't play Pod plus she stops Spellskites, probably nothing, Teeg hoses Tron a little, Eidolon stops Storm and slows down decks like infect and burn, Twisted Image is reasonable against Hierarch/BoP decks too.

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

*Stupid Babby*

TheKingofSprings posted:

So I'd like to talk about a decklist today. Specifically, this decklist: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/420679#online

I'm mainly interested in sideboard choices and the Jund matchup. Why run Linvala in the board when Pod isn't a card anymore? For the mirror/Infect? What can this deck do to not get pasted by Jund? What decks are Eidolon and Teeg being brought in against (Eidolon especially, isn't Storm dead)? Is the deck really so reliant on the combo that Twisted Image is a good sideboard card for Spellskite?

Eidolon stops Storm, Ad Nauseum, Grishoalbrand, cheaper Infect blowouts. Could slow down Control (in a sense of letting them draw 3 and then killing the rest of their turn.)

Fingers McLongDong
Nov 30, 2005

not eromenos
Fun Shoe

TheKingofSprings posted:

So I'd like to talk about a decklist today. Specifically, this decklist: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/420679#online

I'm mainly interested in sideboard choices and the Jund matchup. Why run Linvala in the board when Pod isn't a card anymore? For the mirror/Infect? What can this deck do to not get pasted by Jund? What decks are Eidolon and Teeg being brought in against (Eidolon especially, isn't Storm dead)? Is the deck really so reliant on the combo that Twisted Image is a good sideboard card for Spellskite?

Linvala is still great- stops abzan company combo, stops arcbound ravager, steel overseer, and spellskite, stops griselbrand and borborygmos, stops opposing knights, stops elf players. I play one in the sideboard of my junk deck and it's been great.

Teeg is for Tron, abzan company, and Scapeshift.

That deck can win just fine without the combo. I actually played against Kassis last round of day 1 at GP Charlotte and we ended up playing grindy beatdown games because I spent my removal keeping him off combo. Most of the cards in the deck are good individually. Seems fine against jund too thanks to being able to grind, company is great against jund and so are cards like voice.

RoflcopterPilot
Mar 17, 2004
What did the five fingers say to the face? SLAP!

mcmagic posted:

Why should I be playing City of Solitude over Defense Grid in ANT?

Why would you be playing either of these in ANT? Do you have a list? I've only ever seen Defense Grid in Vintage Storm. That and also Serenity for the lists that splash white instead of red in the side. I just can't imagine either of those played in ANT....not sure what you'd cut for them.

mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

RoflcopterPilot posted:

Why would you be playing either of these in ANT? Do you have a list? I've only ever seen Defense Grid in Vintage Storm. That and also Serenity for the lists that splash white instead of red in the side. I just can't imagine either of those played in ANT....not sure what you'd cut for them.

It's relatively new tech. Paul Cheon was playing it at GP Columbus and in some of his ANT videos.

Rogue0071
Dec 8, 2009

Grey Hunter's next target.

RoflcopterPilot posted:

Why would you be playing either of these in ANT? Do you have a list? I've only ever seen Defense Grid in Vintage Storm. That and also Serenity for the lists that splash white instead of red in the side. I just can't imagine either of those played in ANT....not sure what you'd cut for them.

I have had city of solitude played against me out of ANT. Seems like you could swap it in for Xantid Swarm - it has a similar effect, isn't vulnerable to creature removal (bolt often stays in vs storm, and as miracles I leave in some plow/terminus/staticasters for empty the warrens, dark confidant, and xantid swarm), works the turn you cast it, and is stronger vs miracles. It is significantly more expensive, though, so not all upside.

Johnny Five-Jaces
Jan 21, 2009


L0cke17 posted:

I'm running a grixis teachings/skred control list.

i need a list immediately

i'm assuming it shaves some countermagic for bolts and skreds?

L0cke17
Nov 29, 2013

AgentSythe posted:

i need a list immediately

i'm assuming it shaves some countermagic for bolts and skreds?

This is where I'm at currently. Considerations for changes Im thinking now: 1 more mill card, and another crypt incursion, or blockers somewhere. When I was playing sprout spawning (which I cut because dispel is too common nowadays to rely on it) it was great for making blockers, but this list leans heavily on removal then eventually resolving a crypt incursion halfway through milling the opponents deck to stay alive. its weak to mono-black, but is otherwise decent in most matchups.


4 Evolving Wilds
3 Izzet Boilerworks
8 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Chainer's Edict
4 Counterspell
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Curse of the Bloody Tome
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Dispel
1 Echoing Truth
1 Electrickery
1 Jace's Erasure
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Logic Knot
3 Mana Leak
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Pyroblast
2 Skred
2 Staggershock
1 Terminate

Sideboard:

1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dispel
1 Electrickery
1 Hydroblast
1 Muddle the Mixture
2 Pyroblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Serene Heart
2 Shattering Pulse
1 Skred
1 Snow-Covered Plains

edit: I also have been going back and forth on muddle the mixture in the main. I may go for 1-3 drift of phantasms for decent blockers and being able to tutor for crypt incursion.

L0cke17 fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Jun 22, 2016

The March Hare
Oct 15, 2006

Je rêve d'un
Wayne's World 3
Buglord
Are there any legacy decks you can build 100% out of promos? I think the closest I've found is d&t.

RoflcopterPilot
Mar 17, 2004
What did the five fingers say to the face? SLAP!

mcmagic posted:

It's relatively new tech. Paul Cheon was playing it at GP Columbus and in some of his ANT videos.


Rogue0071 posted:

I have had city of solitude played against me out of ANT. Seems like you could swap it in for Xantid Swarm - it has a similar effect, isn't vulnerable to creature removal (bolt often stays in vs storm, and as miracles I leave in some plow/terminus/staticasters for empty the warrens, dark confidant, and xantid swarm), works the turn you cast it, and is stronger vs miracles. It is significantly more expensive, though, so not all upside.

I've always thought both of those would be way too slow and expensive for Legacy. City isn't that bad if you're playing Trop + Bayou (I run the 15 lands with both personally) but I still can't imagine losing anything to fit in 2-3 more cards in the side. I guess I'll have to watch the Cheon videos and see how they ended up. I just feel like we already have the tools to beat any deck we'd ever want Grid/Solitude against. I don't even have Xantid in the side and took out Carpet of Flowers a while back too. Shrug.

Snacksmaniac
Jan 12, 2008

The March Hare posted:

Are there any legacy decks you can build 100% out of promos? I think the closest I've found is d&t.

I like the way this guy thinks. I was dangerously close to a promo jund deck.

little munchkin
Aug 15, 2010

TheKingofSprings posted:

So I'd like to talk about a decklist today. Specifically, this decklist: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/420679#online

I'm mainly interested in sideboard choices and the Jund matchup. Why run Linvala in the board when Pod isn't a card anymore? For the mirror/Infect? What can this deck do to not get pasted by Jund? What decks are Eidolon and Teeg being brought in against (Eidolon especially, isn't Storm dead)? Is the deck really so reliant on the combo that Twisted Image is a good sideboard card for Spellskite?

Linvala is also good against Bant Eldrazi and affinity.

Eidolon is good against Ad Nauseam as well. With Pridemages to answer Phyrexian Unlife, you can keep them off the combo completely.

Usually against Jund the Company/Chord decks sideboard out as many mana dorks as possible. You're not going to combo off agianst jund and those cards are really bad in a game that's about attrition or topdecking. You replace them with anything in your board that you think might be more relevant than a 0-power creature.

kirtar
Sep 11, 2011

Strum in a harmonizing quartet
I want to cause a revolution

What can I do? My savage
nature is beyond wild

little munchkin posted:

Eidolon is good against Ad Nauseam as well. With Pridemages to answer Phyrexian Unlife, you can keep them off the combo completely.

Prevents cascade into Living End as well. Or Restore Balance if someone is playing that for some reason.

Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005

kirtar posted:

Prevents cascade into Living End as well. Or Restore Balance if someone is playing that for some reason.

I played against a restore balance guy with my modern dredge deck that had, at the time, 3 ancient grudge and 3 nature's claim in the sideboard, and G2 was basically me playing a land destruction deck, blowing up borderpost after borderpost every turn while he was stuck on 1 real land.

It was hilarious.

Rogue0071
Dec 8, 2009

Grey Hunter's next target.

RoflcopterPilot posted:

I've always thought both of those would be way too slow and expensive for Legacy. City isn't that bad if you're playing Trop + Bayou (I run the 15 lands with both personally) but I still can't imagine losing anything to fit in 2-3 more cards in the side. I guess I'll have to watch the Cheon videos and see how they ended up. I just feel like we already have the tools to beat any deck we'd ever want Grid/Solitude against. I don't even have Xantid in the side and took out Carpet of Flowers a while back too. Shrug.

I have never played storm so idk. When it was cast against me I force of willed it.

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Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005
Defense Grid and City of Solitude are basically Duresses that are immune to Flusterstorm, and that you want to play early rather than holding for your critical turn like you do with discard spells.

We ran two D.Grid in our ANT deck's side for a while and against control matchups you would just swap them in for two of the duress effects.

They avoid creature kill that people bring in / keep in for Xantid Swarm and they are very hard to remove as most people do not keep a lot of artifact/enchantment hate in their deck.

I can see City potentially being preferable in the Miracles matchup as they don't have Abrupt Decay and they can't flip into a lot of 3s and they definitely didn't bring/keep Wear//Tear against your 4 LEDs.

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