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Last month, I found myself suddenly unemployed. Shortly after I started on unemployment, I received a letter from the New York State Department of Labor informing me that I qualify to enroll in their SEAP program. The program is for unemployed people, and it helps them start their own business. Over the last month, I waffled back and forth on the idea a bit. I had wanted to start my own business for the last decade or so, but I never really considered it an option as long as I was gainfully employed. Unfortunately, over the last month I've been completely unable to find any work, and so now this opportunity is becoming really attractive. Yesterday, I emailed my regional coordinator asking for information on how to get started with the program. I'm starting this thread for two reasons. The first is to ask questions that I have while the process is ongoing, and hopefully answer anyone's questions as they come along. The second is to document the whole process, assuming things don't go pear shaped for one reason or another along the way. So, let's start off with the program itself. According to the letter and website, the program requires that I have at least 13 weeks worth of Unemployment Insurance remaining, which I do. I must know exactly what sort of business I want to start, which I do. I must take at least 20 hours of entrepreneurial training, through workshops that I can find out about via the local Service Core of Retired Executives, the Small Business Development Center, or the Small Business Administration. I must also meet with a business counselor at least twice and submit various forms to the DoL to show my progress. One thing I'm not sure on as of now, is whether all that happens before or after I've been accepted into the program. Everything's been a bit vague about that point so far, and I'm hoping the regional coordinator I emailed will answer that question for me. Finally, here's the business idea I've got. I live in a decently sized city, with a number of college campuses, suburbs, and all sorts of entertainment. I've always enjoyed gaming in general, the internet at large, and getting drunk with friends, but there's no real opportunity to mix those hobbies together outside of one's home. Sure, there's plenty of your standard-fare bars, and a few different places to play video games or participate in more traditional titles, but nothing that combines them. The only thing that even tries is the local Dave & Busters, which is far more expensive and TGI-Fridays-esque than what I'm thinking about. To that end, I want to create a gaming center that also serves booze. Somewhere you can go to play D&D with your friends and have a pint while doing so, or to watch the latest tournament stream live as you sip your cocktail, or to just get drunk and play Street Fighter and Pac-Man on the retro cabinets. I've found other examples of this sort of thing working out in other cities, and I don't see why it couldn't work here. Since this OP is already pretty long, feel free to ask any questions, and I'll try my best to answer them. I'm hoping that the regional coordinator will get back to me today or tomorrow with the information I need to get started on this whole thing.
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Jun 2, 2016 20:01
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I think combining the high failure rate of a bar with the high failure rate of a hobby store and the outdated arcade business model is a great idea. Does being unemployed mean you ran one or more of these in the past?
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Jun 2, 2016 20:12
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Elephanthead posted:I think combining the high failure rate of a bar with the high failure rate of a hobby store and the outdated arcade business model is a great idea. Does being unemployed mean you ran one or more of these in the past? I've never owned a business before, which is mostly why I posted the thread. My previous employment was with a credit card processor-turned-payroll company, programming, installing and troubleshooting credit card terminals. I was laid off when they decided that the payroll side was more valuable/interesting/insertwhateverreasonhere than the credit card side.
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Jun 2, 2016 20:32
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You better have a hell of a lot better business plan than "I don't see why it couldn't work here" Who's your target audience? Who is going to come to the bar? Where do they live? How often will they come? How much money will they spend?
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Jun 2, 2016 21:05
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The vast, vast majority of barcades fail. Ditto goes for bars that focus on tabletop games unless they're extremely well-run. Someone will come to a bar once or twice for that, but ultimately it's a gimmick that won't keep people coming back except for once in a blue moon. The thing with bars and restaurants is you could run it very well, have an expert staff, great prices and great ideas, great marketing, and it will still probably fail because you picked the wrong area or the wrong time to start in that particular area. If you don't have all of the above perfect, you have about a one in a million shot.
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Jun 2, 2016 21:19
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Nail Rat posted:The vast, vast majority of barcades fail. Ditto goes for bars that focus on tabletop games unless they're extremely well-run. Someone will come to a bar once or twice for that, but ultimately it's a gimmick that won't keep people coming back except for once in a blue moon. That's a very good point. Off the top of my head, I can think of 2 game-focused hobby shops and 3 other game spaces around town that focus exclusively on table top gaming and card games. While I wouldn't want to limit myself to specifically table top gaming, it wouldn't be a bad idea to talk to those businesses and see what makes them stick around. I think it's gotta have something to do with the fact that there's 5 different college campuses, each with their own gaming related clubs, as well as 8 different suburban neighborhoods all clustered around each other in easily-drivable proximity. I'll try to get in touch with some of them over the weekend and see what I can glean from them. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:You better have a hell of a lot better business plan than "I don't see why it couldn't work here" I didn't want to ramble on in the OP, so I kept it short and more to the point. I do hope to develop the details more and make everything very solid as I enter the program. I'm assuming that the required training is for exactly that and more, since it's advertised as a program for developing an existing idea. As far as your questions, The target audience would likely be males age 21 to around 45 who are looking for moderately priced alcohol with inexpensive entertainment. Patrons would come from the previously mentioned college campuses and neighborhoods, most likely 1-3 times per week depending on what activities and events are running. As for pricing, I haven't really worked on that yet, but I recognize that I will have to do so. As I mentioned in the OP, the only place that comes close to doing what I want to do is the local Dave & Busters, and I can say that they're way too expensive for what they offer, to the point that my wife and I won't order food or drinks from them, and we'll only spend money on game credits when they send us promo emails. Even then, we only ever play their games when they're half price, and we still think it's kind of a rip off.
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Jun 2, 2016 22:17
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This truly is the nexus of every cliche goon business idea. Do you have any experience working in a bar? Or you've just drank in some occasionally? Also, how much debt are you willing to go into to give it a go? Start thinking where you'd find $100k+ in loans/capital. root of all eval fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Jun 2, 2016 |
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Jun 2, 2016 22:45
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Don't get into the restaurant business with no experience. A restaurant for the first year or two is a flaming hole in the pavement you shovel money into and spend 90 hours a week dancing around in hopes that you beat the high failure rates and eventually get money back out.
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Jun 3, 2016 08:13
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Your business idea has massive startup costs. Bad idea dude, unless you have a very clear idea about your market - customer research, surveys, google keyword research, etc. It's a hard idea to do a 'practice run' for (could MAYBE do a 'pop-up' style thing for a couple months and see if it lands), and would be hard to get a 'commitment' from a customer base before you set it up (unless it was crowdfunded or something). Any way you slice it, it sounds like a massively risky venture. If you're not going to give up on the idea, go and literally live at your competitors and find out what makes them a success. Talk to the owners and find out if they actually ARE a success or if the owners just have massive sunk costs that they don't want to give up on. They might be making a pittance and they're just doing it for the love of games. If you're not in their city it can only be a good thing for them to spread the ideas - and many small business owners will literally never shut up if you ask them about it because it inevitably dominates their lives. What was your previous employment? Is there any way you could turn it into a business? Was anyone in the industry doing anything 'on the side' that you could do as well? Micro-businesses/side hustles are a great starting point to develop a bigger business out of. You don't need to start out with the intention of entirely replacing your previous income. You also shouldn't get stuck on one idea that potentially totally sucks, even if you don't want to hear it. Be ready to pivot when a better idea comes along. Chadzok fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Jun 3, 2016 |
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Jun 3, 2016 10:17
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Um, you realize the games area at Dave and Buster's is called the Million Dollar Midway for a reason, right? Coin-op products that are not 10+ years old cost thousands of dollars. For example, you know those stupid egg vending machines that you see in every wal-mart entryway? New ones run $1600, for what is essentially a giant gumball machine with a motor. The cheapest new pinballs sell for $4500. Also, tabletop gaming requires the noise level be kept to a minimum. Arcades are noisy. Games are no fun when they're quiet.
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Jun 3, 2016 13:57
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Yeah, I have friends who got a new pinball machine delivered to their basement recently. It cost ten thousand dollars.
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Jun 3, 2016 14:07
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neogeo0823 posted:That's a very good point. Off the top of my head, I can think of 2 game-focused hobby shops and 3 other game spaces around town that focus exclusively on table top gaming and card games. While I wouldn't want to limit myself to specifically table top gaming, it wouldn't be a bad idea to talk to those businesses and see what makes them stick around. I think it's gotta have something to do with the fact that there's 5 different college campuses, each with their own gaming related clubs, as well as 8 different suburban neighborhoods all clustered around each other in easily-drivable proximity. I'll try to get in touch with some of them over the weekend and see what I can glean from them. I gotta tell you I really don't travel afield to do my drinking now unless I'm meeting by a friend's joint, and I definitely thought going 15+ minutes walking to a different set of bars was a Hardship when I was in college. I would recommend you focus on a less risky and less capital-intensive company idea.
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Jun 3, 2016 14:34
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The only time I've seen something like this work is this place here: http://barcadephiladelphia.com/ No tabletop games (is that seriously even considered a market?), none of the games are older than 1993, none of them cost more than a quarter to play. They get by with really good food, an amazing beer selection, and being in a super trendy area with other bars that people can bounce back and forth from.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:24
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To be fair, Punchbowl Social Club does have both board games and arcades. But it also has a giant diner, bar and a bowling alley. We've also only got about 10 machines there, so it's not like a giant arcade or anything. Plus, did ya ever think about who's going to service those games? They break down pretty often with use. For field calls, I run $40/hour, and I am by far the cheapest tech in town. Have fun keeping that 30 year old Mrs. Pac-Man board running! 
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Jun 4, 2016 01:49
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neogeo0823 posted:Since this OP is already pretty long, feel free to ask any questions, and I'll try my best to answer them. I'm hoping that the regional coordinator will get back to me today or tomorrow with the information I need to get started on this whole thing. Where are you going to get the money from to open this business? Without really knowing the details, a general guess would be that you'll need at least $100,000. Also, landlords don't like to rent retail space to people who have no experience and no income and limited funds, so you would probably have to demonstrate that you had significantly more money than it would take to actually open the business.
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Jun 4, 2016 11:10
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A lot of these gaming/hobby stores make a bunch of their regular revenue by hosting teen/kid tournaments or charging an after-school or summer camp membership fee. By turning this into a bar, you've cut out the bulk of potential recurring revenue.
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Jun 4, 2016 15:39
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I think the OP got scared off the idea, which I feel bad about in a way, but feel much better about in reality. OP, we'd all actually really like to help you figure out another smaller scale business idea. I have a friend that did a similar program and now has a modest but successful trailer sales business. It's easy to focus on seemingly glamourous business ideas and forget some guy across town is pulling 300k in revenue selling wooden rocking chairs.
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Jun 4, 2016 21:25
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http://neilsbahr.com/ That's what we have in Houston. It's an okay bar that has a couple of couches and TVs with Nintendo's and Sega's and has Simpsons running over bar TVs. It has a very nerd theme but at it's heart it is a bar first. You should be looking at opening a bar with a nerd theme instead of a gaming center with a bar.
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Jun 4, 2016 22:20
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There's a place that does this in Seattle, cafe mox/card kingdom. They seem to do alright and actually expanded to Bellevue recently. Your idea isn't impossible, but is still probably terrible.
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Jun 4, 2016 22:32
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Oh, and I forgot that many cities still have anti-arcade laws on the books, limiting the amount of amusement machines to 3 or 4 per location. Because arcades traditionally provided meeting spaces for teens, who would get into fights and cause trouble. Seriously, get another idea.
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Jun 5, 2016 00:30
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The risk averse never get rich. go for it Note: I am risk averse, lol!
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Jun 5, 2016 07:22
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I've seen two of these businesses and both seem to be doing pretty well. It's hard to tell because of the Dave and Busters comparison but I don't think OP is thinking of running a Barcade (which are a huge chain and also seem to be doing okay, but must be insanely costly to open). Something more along the lines of a tabletop gaming place that also sells booze and food, I'm guessing? I'm betting location often matters for this in a big way as well but if you can tap into the local nerd community, you could be okay. One of the ones I've been to is in NYC and is usually PACKED, and the other is in Oklahoma of all places and also seems to be doing well.
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Jun 5, 2016 12:42
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I used to play D&D at a bar but it wasn't the bar's reason for existing. They just happened to have a nice back room that you could rent for about 30 quid a night.
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Jun 5, 2016 14:29
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Oh, just a tabletop bar is fine. It can even have a few quieter arcade units. We've got a location that's a brewery with a front bar, but they don't have TVs so people game there a lot. There's also Sidequest, which is a nerdy but mainly board game centered place. Never been, but my friends go often. Again, just a bar. I mean, I wouldn't loan you money for it in a million years, given you have no experience, but it's at least plausible.
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Jun 5, 2016 15:38
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Domus posted:Oh, and I forgot that many cities still have anti-arcade laws on the books, limiting the amount of amusement machines to 3 or 4 per location. Because arcades traditionally provided meeting spaces for teens, who would get into fights and cause trouble. Seriously, get another idea. Are you sure it's not because of old timey money-laundering techniques?
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Jun 5, 2016 22:08
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redcheval posted:I've seen two of these businesses and both seem to be doing pretty well. It's hard to tell because of the Dave and Busters comparison but I don't think OP is thinking of running a Barcade (which are a huge chain and also seem to be doing okay, but must be insanely costly to open). Something more along the lines of a tabletop gaming place that also sells booze and food, I'm guessing? I'm betting location often matters for this in a big way as well but if you can tap into the local nerd community, you could be okay. Yeah, this is what I was thinking of. There's also Battle & Brew, and Player1 as other examples. BossRighteous posted:I think the OP got scared off the idea, which I feel bad about in a way, but feel much better about in reality. I haven't been scared off the idea. I have, however, realized that I'll need to skip the SEAP program, get a new job, and basically focus on this during my free time and days off for the next while. This is because I need to be earning more than what I'm currently earning on unemployment, and SEAP actively punishes you for working during the program. And I'm well aware that this isn't going to make me a millionaire over night. If that were the only reason people opened businesses, we wouldn't have any new businesses. I want to start this up because I think it would be fun and draw a good crowd, and because I love a good cold beer by my side while I shot manns in whatever game I'm playing. I've been taking the last couple of days to talk with the people that run other game shops and LAN centers and the like in town about the idea and trying to get ideas and information. The response has been really positive overall. I've also found a guy who's also going through the process of setting up his own business in another town and has volunteered to help me get started on the basics and steer me in the right direction. So, with that in mind, here's some clarifications and refinements to the original idea from my OP. First, to clarify, there'll be very few, if any, arcade cabinet games. Any of those would be in the bar section of the business, for the bar patrons to play. The establishment will be comprised of 3 areas: the bar, LAN center, and table-top center. I'll spend a paragraph on each below. The bar will run two menus. An "every day" menu, that'll be offered from open till probably around 7 or 8 PM, and a "happy hour" menu, which will run from then till close. The every day menu will feature solely non-alcoholic drinks and simpler, less expensive food. The happy hour menu will expand the drink selection to include beers and cocktails, and will feature more robust, slightly more expensive food. This obviously means that during "happy hour", the establishment will be 21 and over only, but the younger patrons can still come in and play games and participate in tournaments and the like during the day. To avoid the cost associated with having a full service kitchen, I intend to partner with one of the multitudes of catering companies around town. They'll ship food to the establishment regularly, and anything that needs to be hot will be heated in a small toaster oven or similar. Physically, the bar will be at the front of the business, and will be the space that people walk into when they enter the business. The bar area will be separated into 3 sections: The actual bar, with stools, that people can sit at, a dining area with tables for groups, and a small lounge area near the front of the establishment. The lounge area will have some comfortable chairs and/or couches to sit in so patrons can relax a bit with their drinks. The LAN center will have between 30 and 50 gaming stations. That number is subject to change based on available space, but after researching around and talking to people, this is definitely a more = more sort of situation. Too few stations and you won't have enough seats for a popular tournament, or a birthday, or maybe you will, but then no one else can come in and play because you're full. Also included will be at least 2 but probably upwards of 4 console gaming stations that can seat at least 4 people at each. This section of the business is actually pretty straightforward. You can buy software that's specifically designed to manage LAN gaming centers and it takes care of licensing for the games, music played on each station, can track user accounts, and pretty much everything else that would be required on the programming end of things. The stations themselves are a relatively large initial investment, typically ~$1300 each for custom tower, keyboard/mouse/monitor, and chair, but only require additional funds when something breaks or when you go to upgrade the CPU/RAM/video card every few years. The LAN center I talked to hasn't had to upgrade their computers or repair anything in the last two years, and is slated to do a video card upgrade late next year. Finally, the table-top gaming area is also pretty straight forward. I'd likely have this in a separate room to limit the noise coming from the bar and/or LAN center. In this area will be 8 to 12 tables with enough chairs to seat up to 4 at a table. There will also be some open space in which to create the actual "scenery" and such for any Warhammer 40k matches or whatever would be going on. On another topic, I do need to look into more opportunities for funding. I'm pretty sure I'm woefully unknowledgeable about the options open to me, so please do tell me more about them. I know that the obvious one is getting a business loan from a bank. I could also potentially get one or more people to throw money into it as either partners or investors or the like. And of course, there's potential in crowd funding at least a part of it, which I'd expect wouldn't get me enough to do the whole thing. Am I missing other options? Please do give me more info about this segment of things.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:42
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neogeo0823 posted:I haven't been scared off the idea. Oh, good.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:56
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I think you should get a job working in a bar\restaurant\cafe so you can get some real experience of how this sort of business works. Your ideas are a bit "pie in the sky" right now.
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Jun 5, 2016 23:32
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How old are you? Your ideas seem really idealistic, and you don't seem to be thinking of the downsides of a gigantic rear end space filled with random stuff and how much that will actually cost. Rent, utilities, staffing, equipment depreciation, etc. Start out small. Really small, and maybe see if one aspect of your giant plan will work.
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Jun 6, 2016 00:36
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BossRighteous posted:Are you sure it's not because of old timey money-laundering techniques? Yeah. I mean I'm not sure that every restrictive law in every city for arcades is completely uninvolved in money-laundering. But even today, people are worried about getting teenagers together in unsupervised groups. It may not even be written law, just a local...thing. For instance, here in Cleveland, there are no arcades in the city proper. If you try to start one, you will be stopped by a city councilman. I can't point to the exact place the law is written, but the city will not give you a business license. OP, if funding is an issue, it's probably not a good time in your life to try and get a loan. You need collateral. No one will take a risk on you just because you say you'll pay it back. They need something of value they can take if you go bankrupt or whatever. Edit: Because my boss's main business is lending money to people who start bars, I know a thing or two here. Let me tell you about a bunch of things I'm sure you haven't even thought of. 1)You need a location. You will probably have to renovate the building if it wasn't a bar before. That's 60k at least. It has to have enough parking and space for your patrons, and be compliant with all building codes for such establishments. You'll need an outdoor space or patio if smoking isn't allowed inside in your state. Your location will have to be in a very specific kind of neighborhood. Too nice and the rent will kill you instantly. Too shady and the patrons you want won't come. You have to have clearance from the local government to open your bar. In your case I doubt the neighbors will have a problem with your place, but you may have a problem with them. If the cops show up every night because someone got drunk and stabbed next-door, no one's gonna feel safe. Ditto with homeless people hanging out, drug dealers, etc. 2)If you're serving food, you need a kitchen. If you need to install a kitchen in the location, it's gonna be 100k minimum. You need a fire suppression system, which ain't cheap. You need to be inspected and passed by the local board of health. You'll need a cook and someone to make a menu, which is a craft in itself. You'll need servers, 'cause nerds are lazy and don't want to get their own food. 3)If you're serving liquor, you'll need a liquor license. 20k minimum, and in a decent city, a lot more. Also more if you want to stay open late, or serve food. Depending on your location, there just may not be any for sale. Most cities have a limited number available, and if they're already taken, you have to buy it from whoever owns it. You need to have a keg system installed if you want anything on tap. You need to have some kind of choke point to check ID's at. ...I can keep going if you want... Domus fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Jun 6, 2016 |
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Jun 6, 2016 01:11
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Domus posted:...I can keep going if you want... Please do. That's all really good info and is one of the main reasons why I started this thread.
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Jun 6, 2016 03:14
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Domus posted:Yeah. I mean I'm not sure that every restrictive law in every city for arcades is completely uninvolved in money-laundering. But even today, people are worried about getting teenagers together in unsupervised groups. It may not even be written law, just a local...thing. For instance, here in Cleveland, there are no arcades in the city proper. If you try to start one, you will be stopped by a city councilman. I can't point to the exact place the law is written, but the city will not give you a business license. I think the phrase to look for in city regulations is "by-right" or "special permit". City councils require special permits for businesses that it doesn't want to allow within the city but also doesn't want to expressly forbid (this happens a lot to abortion clinics). If an arcade is allowed in a specified zone by-right then you're good to go. If a special permit is required, depending on the make-up of the city council you're hosed.
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Jun 6, 2016 04:56
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neogeo0823 posted:On another topic, I do need to look into more opportunities for funding. I'm pretty sure I'm woefully unknowledgeable about the options open to me, so please do tell me more about them. I know that the obvious one is getting a business loan from a bank. I could also potentially get one or more people to throw money into it as either partners or investors or the like. And of course, there's potential in crowd funding at least a part of it, which I'd expect wouldn't get me enough to do the whole thing. Am I missing other options? Please do give me more info about this segment of things. I think that you'd better focus pretty heavily on the "where exactly am I going to get $100,000?" part of the plan. The rest of the plan will be irrelevant if no one is going to give you the money to do this. Just as I could sit in my house and draw pictures of 150 story sky scrapers which are never going to be built because I have no money to build a 150 story building. And I'd like to add to what Domus was saying. Assuming you do manage to come up with some funding, you will still be far better off if you can find a location for rent that is already built out with what you need. Like a landlord trying to rent out a space which already housed a bar with a kitchen, so that you won't have to spend $150,000 putting a bar and a kitchen into an empty box.
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Jun 6, 2016 05:05
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4) You're gonna need employees. You're not gonna be able to do everything yourself. Who's gonna clean up at night? When? Who's gonna tend bar? Do you go with competent people who know what they're doing, or cheap labor? What are you going to do when the bar maid steals from the register? What if she gives away too many free drinks? Are you gonna be there every hour it's open? You need to be ready to work long hours for just the hope of a profit. Remember, when everyone else is playing Cards Against Humanity and having a grand ol' drunk time, you get to be mopping the floor where some idiot vomited. 5) You're going to need insurance. People sue over dumb stuff, like that they got drunk and fell down the stairs. Do you put in security cameras? Where's the money going to be kept? What are you going to do to keep someone from robbing you when you're moving cash to the bank? My co-worker got maced and had $2000 stolen this way. Are you going to have live entertainment? If so, you have to pay the ASCAP fee or get your rear end sued (same co-worker, actually). You're going to be running LAN stuff. How do you charge for it? Do you have permission from the software creators to make money LANing their software? What's to keep people from loving with the computers for fun? 6) You're going to need a logo, and some sort of branding. You'll need a website, designed by someone who's not 12. You need advertising, a way to drive customers in. You need press coverage. You need something unique that no-one else has. Why pay to LAN party with you when the computer lab can do it for free? But most of all, you need money to do this. And no one's gonna give you money if you don't have collateral. Edit: Oh hey, Seaway does have a crappy website. This is the application on their site, although I have no idea how dated it is. See how 3 of the 5 pages are dedicated to what assets you have? You can't just leave all those blank. Domus fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Jun 6, 2016 |
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Jun 6, 2016 05:43
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I didn't even think about computers. Dude, people are going to masturbate at your bar. You're going to have to come up with some sort of plan for when that happens.
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Jun 6, 2016 05:47
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defectivemonkey posted:I didn't even think about computers. People are going to masturbate at your bar with or without computers. And do drugs. And screw in the bathroom.
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Jun 6, 2016 05:57
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You're still planning on having a tabletop gaming area. I want you to memorize this phrase. "You've been here nine hours and all you've paid for is a Coke. Go home and for gently caress's sake take a bath." You're going to be using it like 30-40 times a day. If you ask your friendly local gaming store owner what part of his business he'd gladly set fire to, and he doesn't say the gaming tables, he's lying through his teeth. (Source: Used to manage a friendly local gaming store.) kazmeyer fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Jun 6, 2016 |
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Jun 6, 2016 06:01
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defectivemonkey posted:I didn't even think about computers. Drunk people will also spill beer all over the computers!
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Jun 6, 2016 12:58
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neogeo0823 posted:
this is why businesses started by enthusiasts fail. they don't realize that providing the service means that you don't get to partake in the service and that the service becomes Work, not Play.
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Jun 6, 2016 13:06
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SaltLick posted:http://neilsbahr.com/ Same for this place in Chicago. http://hqbeercade.com/ It's a bar first and then it focuses on (free) videogames, not a bunch of random nerd things. Gumbel2Gumbel posted:The only time I've seen something like this work is this place here: No 70s or 80s games and you need to pay to play them. Sounds awful, sorry.
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Jun 6, 2016 13:51
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