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CommieGIR posted:Organic is a buzzword and you're buying into pseudoscience and marketing gimmicks. Only sometimes. My goto example on this is milk. Milk is some very chemically complex stuff, loads and loads of poo poo in there, and while it's trivial these days to make a cow make more milk, you can't necessarily make the cow make more of all of the things that go into that milk. Organic milk therefore is typically higher in these micronutrients and can indeed provide greater health benefits to the consumer should they not be getting those nutrients elsewhere. But that isn't to say that non-organic milk is bad. Organic is expensive, and I'd rather people have milk that isn't necessarily the best it can be than no milk at all.
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Jun 10, 2016 17:47
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CommieGIR posted:Now are you talking about Pasteurized milk or Milk without growth hormones? Pasteurized milk from grass-fed cows not given hormones. I'm not a raw milk person.
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Jun 10, 2016 17:51
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One other thing I'd mention in regard to organic meat and produce is taste and variety. Yes, some of that is entirely subjective and may have nothing to do with the fact that it is organically grown, but modern industrial agriculture is really only concerned with maximum yield and therefore maximum profit. If you want heirloom varieties of produce or breeds of meat animal, you're probably looking at organic because it's either not as profitable at an industrial scale, or in some other way unsuitable for that level of production.
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Jun 10, 2016 18:23
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twodot posted:What's an example of a micronutrient found in milk which your average American able to afford organic milk is unlikely to find elsewhere? Like iodized salt is good because even if people are unlikely to need it, it has basically no impact on production or price. If we're asserting organic milk is healthy because it complements the nutrition profile of Soylent drinkers, that seems pretty suspect. CLA in both milk and meat. Also found in some mushrooms. Now, as wikipedia there says, the evidence for any benefit CLA in particular may have in humans is still a bit up in the air, but it has shown evidence of anti-cancer properties and weight reduction and some role in preventing early-onset puberty, all likely related to its anti-aromatase activity. And it is something the content of which has decreased in our foods with modern production.
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Jun 10, 2016 20:02
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twodot posted:You haven't addressed my question, because there isn't established maximum beneficial amount of CLA (even assuming it is beneficial whatsoever, which seems in dispute), and whether an ordinary meat or mushroom eater would hit that limit anyways. You said "can indeed provide greater health benefits", but what you appear to mean is "For people who have a specific deficiency, which hasn't actually been proven to exist, drinking organic milk can be good". Given modern diets, I think someone saying "Using iodized salt can provide greater health benefits" to be very disingenuous. That it is beneficial isn't in dispute. It's more the specific mechanism by which it acts and how that interacts with all the other complex biological processes in an animal (human or other) that are still not well understood. It is not for a specific deficiency as you cannot produce your own CLA. You can only get it from foods. Recommended intake is ~3g/day, which you can get from non-organic meat or milk, but you'll need to consume about 5x as much to do so. e: and like I said before, it is definitely better that people get something, even if it's not ideal, rather than nothing because they can't afford it. This was meant as an example of something where a more traditional method yields a product with a measurable difference in something that can impact health ReidRansom fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 20:28
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twodot posted:I don't understand how to reconcile this with this: Sorry, i edited that to 3g/d. And the hard evidence is mostly in animals, is what I mean. In humans it isn't conclusively proven, but there is ample evidence showing that some animal models do apply. And yes, by all means, supplement if you're not getting enough. It's good for you. But you could also get enough of it in your diet if you choose what you eat carefully. This is all I'm saying. ee: and once again, this was only meant as an example of how organic sometimes isn't total bullshit. It is not meant to say you cannot get the same benefit from some other source. ReidRansom fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 20:50
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twodot posted:I don't think you've provided any evidence this is true, even presuming it's good. Like grass fed cows produce more CLA in their milk than other cows, that doesn't seem to be in dispute, but whether that amount matters seems very much in dispute, especially considering an inability to reproduce, in humans, benefits found in animals. Are you being intentionally dense? The other source would mean supplements. And why supplement if you can get it in your diet? And the inability to reproduce in humans what we see in animals is because we don't split humans into groups, feed them different diets until puberty, and then kill and dissect them to weigh their ovaries or any poo poo like that. There just aren't as many trials in humans because they're expensive and take years and years and years, but here is a study showing benefit in humans.
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Jun 10, 2016 21:27
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icantfindaname posted:It's also even less sustainable than industrial agriculture. Sustainable isn't heirloom roosters raised in a specific terroir and fed organic corn it's synthetic chicken breasts grown in a vat It's all such small scale it's usually pretty low impact though.
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Jun 10, 2016 21:32
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icantfindaname posted:So it's sutainable for a tiny bourgeois elite than can pay for astoundingly inefficient production? I guess, but that's not really what the green types are talking about when they want to expand that vision to all corners of the world Er.... yes, I suppose. But hey, I don't advocate making everything like that. Neither do I begrudge someone offering consumers that choice should there be demand for it. Like, I'm not paying $200+ for a Bresse capon, but if there are people that will, gently caress it, let em. ReidRansom fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 21:50
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Tuxedo Gin posted:Do you have sources, Mr. Unsourced opinions? Cause here's some that say you are wrong. Local food is demonstrably better for the environment than globally transported industrialized ag products: Problem is all-local wouldn't be able to meet the food needs of most large population centers. A mixed approach, not entirely unlike the way poo poo is currently, is probably best.
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Jun 10, 2016 22:38
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Tuxedo Gin posted:...and you don't need strawberries in January. More people really should try to eat seasonally, I agree.
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Jun 11, 2016 00:00
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BrandorKP posted:Ships have to burn low sulfur fuels when they come in North Americsn waters now. That normally means LSMGO ( LSDO) ie. low sulfur diesel oil. That's the rule most places, while you're in port, at least.
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Jun 16, 2016 21:07
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BrandorKP posted:Yep, due to MARPOL annex VI. I try not to nerd out about international maritime treaties. Don't get me started about SOLAS and the roles of Classifications societies, Flag states, and Port states. Dubstep Jesus posted:What if I want to get you started? This. I work on a research vessel and dig talking ship.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:33
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