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There was a derail (initiated in part by yours truly) in the Startups thread about agriculture, starting on this page and continuing for a page or two. Please continue it here. I have quoted the major posts in the derail here for reading convenience. I hope this thread can be fertile for productive discussion, and that we won't need to apply pesticides to this to keep the diseases and insects away! OwlFancier posted:Well my answer is obviously going to be nationalize agriculture and enforce sustainable practices, also possibly migrate away from low labour high sprawl farming back to higher labour lower sprawl farming to some degree. Get everyone growing stuff in their gardens and that. Liquid Communism posted:Most of this is factually inaccurate. Factory farmed food is fine, so long as sufficient health and safety laws are present and enforced. The issues are generally ethical regarding the treatment of food animals and workers, and environmental regarding the impact of the techniques used to get modern yields as regards erosion and especially fertilizer runoff, both of which are still a problem with small farms. Small farms also have less resources to act on these problems in the first place, and are more likely to be hurt by the burdens of compliance with regulations or the losses of a bad season. Brannock posted:"sufficient laws" is rather nebulous wouldn't you say? Of course with sufficient and enforced laws then anything is perfectly safe and healthy and fine. computer parts posted:It's objective fact that industrial farming uses fewer resources than organic methods, especially on a national scale. Like literally "economies of scale" science. You may as well be an anti-vaxxer if you deny this. OwlFancier posted:Fewer human resources. It uses, sort of by definition, more raw materials than just sticking crap in the dirt and letting it grow. twodot posted:I think we can reasonably accept dollars as a proxy for resources, and observe the cost of production of industrial farms per unit is lower than other farms, and conclude they use fewer resources in general. Maybe you care about a specific resource (oil), but distinguishing on human is weird unless you think it's good to have a bunch of people maintaining farms. Arsenic Lupin posted:Even organic farmers don't "stick crap in the dirt". You have to do a lot of work getting organic fertilizer into the soil, Otherwise, you wind up with the sort of soil exhaustion that is rampant in cotton and tobacco country. You use gasoline (in all but the tiniest of farms) just the same as a non-organic farm, possibly more because of the requirement to do more weeding than with broadleaf herbicides. Tuxedo Gin posted:How the gently caress do you get this? My family has a small organic farm with an orchard (~120 fruit trees) and a field of assorted veg. We use significantly less water, fertilizer, and zero pesticides and chemicals per plant/unit grown than a commercial operation. We don't use large gas operated vehicles for harvest or maintenance, either. We have a variety of crops that allows healthy use of the land without overstressing the soil (which is how we can get supermarket quality fruits and veg without dumping hundreds of tons of fertilizer on our plants). The only resource we have more of is people - we have 5 adults and 2 kids living and working our farm. An industrial operation using more natural and chemical resources could handle a much larger farm with one guy and his machines. ReidRansom posted:I'm sorry, but your personal anecdote here flies in the face of hundreds of years of agricultural science. Yes, industrial farming is not without problems, and yes, organic farming has its benefits, but in terms of yield/acre and total input cost per unit produced, etc., you cannot come close to matching a modern industrial farm. I went to and work at a leading agricultural school (although I am myself a geoscientist) and this place is lousy with phDs specializing in every aspect of making sure poo poo grows just so. Also, farmers, even large scale ones (especially large scale ones, really) are a loving miserly lot and waste far fewer resources than you might imagine. Tuxedo Gin posted:My argument is that input cost per unit is skewed on a national scale by subsidies and failure to factor in the environmental impact, and the benefits of yield/acre are irrelevant when we throw so much food away. We don't loving need those kinds of yields if we're wasting a massive amount of the produce either because it wasn't pretty enough or it didn't sell. Farmers count that as a unit sold, as do your statistics, but within the entire earth to belly agriculture system, those are wasted units and wasted resources. OwlFancier posted:If the argument is that industrial farming requires too many raw materials in the form of fertilizer and pesticides to keep the soil functional then this is arguably, primarily a function of mechanized farming which exists to keep labor costs down. cheese posted:1) I completely agree that using a simple dollar valuation is flawed. But that is what is currently being used. Liquid Communism posted:Ag labor is, in great part, lovely dangerous work that doesn't pay all that well. I live out in the middle of flyover country, just corn and soybeans far as the eye can see, and every farmer I know is constantly bitching about how much debt they have to take on just to stay in business, and that's with relying on family labor for everything humanly possible. It's why the family farm is a thing of the past, they just can't compete with the yields that the big operators get driving down food prices. Stinky_Pete posted:Using the dollar as a metric helps us understand motivations of the businesses responsible for the bulk of agriculture. We all know sustainable agriculture is better, but the question is how to make it more accessible to everyone, and a preferable option to large scale operations. Brannock posted:Industrial organic farming, especially thanks to the efforts of industrial farmers, is better than actual industrial farming... but not by such a large margin. It is good that they're avoiding a lot of the worst excesses and techniques of standard industrial farming, but they follow a similar paradigm, and many large-scale organic farmers follow the requirements and regulations for organic certification (which is often not as stringent as it could be) to the letter and none beyond that. Nationwide and, often, international shipping also undoes a lot of the non-nutritionally-focused good that organic farming ostensibly accomplishes. How much better is it for the planet if, even if your carrots are grown without pesticides or petroleum-based fertilizer, the carrots end up being shipped a couple thousands miles away using fossil fuels? Ready, set, grow!
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# ¿ Jun 10, 2016 17:33 |
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# ¿ May 14, 2024 12:01 |
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CommieGIR posted:Organic is a buzzword and you're buying into pseudoscience and marketing gimmicks. Who are you replying to? If it's me I'm not really favorable towards our (American) current definition of organic and I think we can do a hell of a lot better. I think it's interesting that you cite decreased yield in the same breath that you condemn toxic substances. Properly managed multi-layer farming produces high yields while requiring very little external substance input. It's not widely used because it's much simpler to brute force your land and grow only a few varieties of crops or a couple types of animals.
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# ¿ Jun 10, 2016 18:04 |
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CommieGIR posted:And no, any definition of 'Organic' is bullshit, because it assumes some sort of flaw with Genetically Modified Crops that exists, or some risks with them. This is unnecessarily aggressive. I'm not against GMO grops. I think the current practices of organic farming fail to live up to the ideals in many many ways. For the most part I try to buy local when I can, from farmers who are open about their practices. CommieGIR posted:Cite your sources for 'Properly managed multi-layer farming' Unfortunately I suspect any sources I could provide, from my limited knowledge (I am not a farmer), would be dismissed out of hand for being biased since they're from people and groups who practice and advocate organic/small-scale/local/low-external-input/what-have-you farming. Similarly, large corporations are very unlikely to permit studies casting their own practices and production in a negative light. Instead, I ask you to perform a simple thought experiment. Can any given plot of land support one type of crop or animal? Obviously, yes. Can it support more than one? Very likely. Will supporting more than one type of product reduce yield, that is to say, is it zero-sum? If you grow chickens (X) and vegetables (Y) on the same space of land, will the output (O) remain constant? Can you add goats, pigs, fruit, cows, herbs, flowers? I think it'd take a lot before you started running into diminishing returns, certainly more than a monoculture farm. But, of course, handling a farm with several dozen different growing products is a lot more complex and more complicated for a mechanized system to handle than fencerow-to-fencerow monoculture. I also want to suggest that things being more expensive is not inherently or necessarily bad. Higher food prices are only a problem when people cannot afford them, which is a problem stemming in large part from our system that actively attempts to keep the poor poor. There is an enormous amount of waste in the system, as well as an enormous amount of government subsidization for farming and agriculture. Paying hypothetically $2.50 for your pound of green beans instead of $2.00 is not going to break the bank. Producing 20% fewer green beans, especially when we're already wasting a colossal amount of food, is not going to destroy the system. We might even be better off for it, if these green beans are coming from people we know and interact with, coming from farms that aren't a quarter of the planet away, and are grown in-season when the weather and the soil is appropriate for it. If we can pay slightly more for food, especially the sort of food that employs more people, is grown more conscientiously, is (arguably) of higher quality and (unarguably) of greater variety, then that seems better all around, right? It's a similar (but not identical) principle of having a $15 minimum wage. I should point out that low food prices has, in the past, completely destroyed the market for food and caused shortages. This is why we have heavy government subsidies today. I think the subsidies do a good thing and are certainly done in good spirit, but they do mask the true cost of food, and they do incentivize extreme productions of corn in particular which ends up making its way into our food even if we aren't actually buying corn itself. I enjoy strawberries in winter as much as anyone, but I'm well aware that it's a very luxury good that requires a lot of consumption to deliver these strawberries to my kitchen island, and that very likely the sticker price I paid for my sugar-dipped strawberries isn't anywhere close to the actual price.
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# ¿ Jun 10, 2016 18:31 |
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Anos posted:The US exports a lot of food so higher food prices have effects beyond the borders of the US. Paying 50 cents more for a pound of beans may or may not be manageable for the poor in the US but more likely than not it won't be for the poor that rely on US exports. When biofuels became a thing in the 2000s food prices spiked across the world. In Europe and the US people managed but there were shortages and ultimately political instability in other places. As far as I can tell implementing reforms that reduce production by 20% will have the same effect. Exporting food is on its face a good thing, but ends up stifling agricultural and economic growth in other countries. Here's another, and one more. Regions should be nutritionally self-sufficient. When artificial political and economic barriers interfere, we get serious market imbalances, unnecessary food shortages, and that are enormously wasteful like most of the American desert regions that inexplicably have large populations and siphon off loads of water and resources. There's also the energy consumption problem. Abstract money aside, it costs far far more in real resources to ship green beans across oceans. The future of our human civilization should be concerned with the consumption of real resources. We're far too focused on money which is subject to manipulation, abuses, and market failures.
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# ¿ Jun 10, 2016 19:35 |
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CommieGIR posted:Just FYI: Please cite your sources. And if you are afraid they may be called out as biased, truth is, they may be biased. The fact that you are calling attention to that is actually an issue, because unfortunately for your argument, the Organic crowed is more guilty of bias than most. I put effort in my response to you and I'm disappointed you found it unnecessary to engage with any of what I wrote. Partly because of that, I am not particularly inclined to go to the trouble of digging up studies and sources for you. Your unconditional resistance to what we're discussing I think justifies my concern that anything I provide will be dismissed out of hand. Further, you keep assuming that I'm an Organic Farming advocate despite my saying otherwise multiple times, which is a strong indicator that you didn't take the time to read what I and others have been writing. Claiming that the suggestion that the enormous industrial agribusiness industry will actively work to push and publicize its own interests and minimize competition is a conspiracy theory is laughable because that's exactly what they do. It's what businesses do, it's in their interest! If they didn't do it, they wouldn't be good businesses in our capitalistic system! It's what businesses and corporations do in all other industries, why should agribusiness be an exception? Do I need to cite the Milk advertising movement or the food pyramid or corn growers pushing for more and more support for their crop, to name a few of the most well-known examples? When the original organic farming movement became too large to be ignored, agribusiness interests bought out a lot of these, branded, and folded them into their own operations. This is part of why industrial-organic agribusinesses operate so very similarly to industrial agriculture. Further, let's assume you're correct and small farms have a lower yield-per-acre than large farms (ignoring other variables, like multiple crops and livestock instead of a monoculture, etc, etc). So what? Productivity itself is not an inherent good. If we can squeeze 99% productivity out of our farms with colossal megaindustrial practices and we're able to feed another 8 billion people because of that and our population grows accordingly, is that actually a good thing? What have we gained? Are you and I better off for it? Is our society better off for it? Is our home, our planet, better off for it? Shouldn't we be thinking about what we decide to do as a society, about our food practices, our work, and our societal rites, in terms of what benefits us best, instead of what creates the most clutter and enables the most consumption? Why the endless pursuit of more, more, more? Do we really need more people? There's seven billion people on our planet. Do we really need more food? The entire Northern Hemisphere (and Australia) is experiencing an obesity crisis that's starting to spread into South America and Africa as well. CommieGIR posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...150c_story.html These sources look amusingly like the top results on Google for "organic farming inefficiency studies". The first one is a personal article by a small-scale farmer and is decidedly neutral on which is better, but tends to favor the small farms. The second has a familiar-sounding quote (by that, if it's not clear, I mean it resembles a sentence you challenged me on earlier in this thread): quote:"But, this yield difference varies across different conditions. When farmers apply best management practices, organic systems, for example, perform relatively better." and is mostly supportive of small-scale farming while conceding that industrial farming DOES have higher yield. I don't believe yield is necessarily the end-all be-all as I wrote above. The third misses the point rather largely by complaining about lower productivity, and assumes that local farming requires more "chemicals". It goes on to assume that we need to, and should, continue our policy of massive corn and soybean production even though we're struggling to find ways to use all these corn and soybeans and it ends up being filtered into our entire food system either through being fed to our animals, used as fertilizer, or processed into manufactured food. The fourth is interesting because it fixates on sustainability. Why is sustainability the goal, rather than stability? Miller argues that sustainability isn't sufficient to feed a "growing population" (there's that conceit again). Why should our society be in a state of constant growth, especially when it threatens to damage and overwhelm the systems that enable its functioning? The quote on the final part (page 3) of the article provides a definition for sustainability that I would characterize as better fitting for "stability". Miller is also explicitly arguing against the American definition of Organic Farming, something I've already distanced myself from in this thread, and criticizes many of the same ideas and practices that I have been. Using large amounts of metals, insecticides, fungicides, is, I suggest, missing the point of trying to work more in harmony with nature to grow food. Soil-maintenance practices that create increased erosion and runoff is neither sustainable nor stable and does not live up to the ideals of "organic farming". I also agree that the knee-jerk opposition to GMO is silly and unhelpful.
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# ¿ Jun 10, 2016 19:52 |
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In the interests of promoting discussion (and to demonstrate that I'm not a crusader for any particular side): http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/13/opinion/the-myth-of-sustainable-meat.html quote:The Myth of Sustainable Meat Joel Salatin (he of Polyface Farm/Omnivore's Dilemma fame) responds quote:The recent editorial by James McWilliams, titled “The Myth of Sustainable Meat,” contains enough factual errors and skewed assumptions to fill a book, and normally I would dismiss this out of hand as too much nonsense to merit a response. But since it specifically mentioned Polyface, a rebuttal is appropriate. For a more comprehensive rebuttal, read the book Folks, This Ain’t Normal. I don't think either McWilliams or Salatin are entirely correct (for instance, Salatin's numbers about wetlands and methane are off the mark) but, frankly, that's true for all sides in this discussion. I do think there's a hell of a lot of room for improvement, and I do agree with Salatin that individual households are ripe for improvement and better engagement with the food system (as well as providing their own contributions). One thing Salatin didn't bring up, and one thing McWilliams didn't mention, is that we eat entirely too much meat. Any future that has improved agricultural and improved food practices will involve a lot less meat than we currently eat. That is not to say that we should eliminate animals entirely from our diet. Animals are a very useful vehicle for converting inedible biomass into human-digestible nutrients, and in particular animals are excellent at turning land that are otherwise unsuitable for growing crops into productive food environments. (There is a reason, for instance, that Scottish Highland Cattle exist. The highlands are nearly impossible to grow food in, but the cattle can transform the weeds and grasses there into food for us.)
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# ¿ Jun 10, 2016 20:14 |
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Anos posted:Not all regions can be self-sufficient. Should they ideally be? Sure. But they aren't and they can't be. We can take Saudi Arabia as the worst example. I guess they could theoretically desalinate enough water to grow enough food but it's not obvious that it would require less energy than importing it. Moreover, climate change will shift which areas are more productive, potentially making populous and currently self-sufficient countries rely on imports in the future. We need a global food network to deal with the fact that people do not naturally distribute themselves according to agricultural output and short or long term changes thereof. I suggest that places like Saudi Arabia, Phoenix, Dubai, and Las Vegas should not be inhabited by humans to the extent that they are, nor should we try to make them habitable when it comes at the cost of siphoning massive amounts of resources from elsewhere. The reason that they even exist the way they do today is thanks to the abstraction of money and an international financial system, not because of any actual legitimate accounting of the consumption of real-resources and a serious cost-benefit analysis of such. Climate change is unlikely to transform these places into cornucopias. In fact, it is more likely to further drat these places.
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# ¿ Jun 10, 2016 20:47 |
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CommieGIR posted:That's the problem though: These people are arguing that their method of farming should be the only viable and acceptable version. So, yes, it is an issue. This is outright false. What they're arguing isn't that all industrial production should cease immediately, they're saying that industrial production has significant negative externalities that aren't being fully accounted for, and that there isn't sufficient alternative sources of food for people. On top of that, they're also advocating a shift back (to be clear, a shift, not a complete and instant transformation of the entire industry) to cities sourcing their food from nearby areas instead of halfway across Earth. Some of the more zealous will go on all-encompassing rants talking about the deleterious effects of the industry, but the overall consensus is that it's impossible to feed 7+ billion without mass industrial farming. The real question is: how did it get to be this way? Why is it this way? Is it the best way we can arrange the system? (No) Is it good and healthy for our people, or for our culture, or for our mental state, satisfaction and happiness? CommieGIR posted:Oh Salatin. Okay dude when you quote an external source citing a quote from the same article that I provided full text of, to rebut a part of that article that in the very post that you quoted I actually point out his mistake about methane and wetlands, when you do that it makes it laughably clear that you aren't actually bothering to take time to read and comprehend, and that you aren't approaching this with anything resembling conductiveness to a discussion. I think I'm done with you. icantfindaname posted:Perfectly efficient food production is eating Soylent and ground cricket flour, not organic local produce. Local organic production is massively less efficient than even the system we have now, and setting up the entire world's agriculture like that means billions of people die of starvation This is a cute rhetorical flourish serving to paint a frightening picture, but without much real substance to it. Yes of course if we go back to 1875 CE farms everywhere it won't be able to keep up with the ravenous hunger of seven billion locusts, but that's not remotely what anyone except the disingenuous are arguing. For the people who are heavily advocating mass centralized industrial farming, it would be useful to remember that these sort of setups are much more vulnerable to sudden failure, than a system with a healthy amount of diffused and distributed smaller farms that can at least resist shocks localized to one part of the country. Don't put all your eggs in one basket and such. The Soviet peasants reverted to small local farms near the end of the Soviet Union. If they'd had these farms all along, in addition to the large centralized industrial farming, I suspect there would have been much fewer starvation deaths. icantfindaname posted:No actually we do need to feed billions of people, that's exactly the problem. And as for people living in unsustainable places, there are hundreds of millions of poor brown people living in just such places today, and those places will become increasingly unsustainable in the future thanks to climate change. The major stress on world food production isn't Las Vegas and California suburbs, it's third world countries under water stress, and while eliminating waste and inefficiency in Las Vegas will help a little its effect on a country like Yemen or Bangladesh will be negligible. The solution to developing countries' problems looks nothing like small, local farms, it looks like industrial agriculture with huge inputs of capital and technology Building upon what I wrote above, don't you think these places should have local farms along with the huge industrial agriculture? One can cover for the other, and vice versa. They'd also be much more resilient to economic and financial shocks. If it was exclusively big-business agriculture, what happens when the suits decide it's no longer profitable, or try to find other methods of extracting profit and utility from its Third World customers and consumers?
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# ¿ Jun 10, 2016 22:29 |
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CommieGIR posted:You honest to god made the argument that we should not support the population we have. Unless you were being sarcastic, I think the burden is on you to demonstrate why people should have to perish to support your goals. He made the argument that, ideally, we shouldn't be supporting huge populations in places like Saudi Arabia and the American Southwest desert. That we still got huge populations there is an example of wildly inefficient market capitalism that allowed its purchasing power to be distorted to the extent that it's actually "profitable" to ship resources there to be pissed into the sand. These places should not have happened. He is not advocating that we march out and guillotine every citizen living in these places. Perhaps, and here I venture into speculation, he is advocating a slow over-time reduction in population there with encouragement for its citizens to move to other areas less resource-expensive and more habitable to human life. Similarly, a global population of seven billion should never have happened in the first place, especially not an increase of five billion in sixty years. This explosive increase has forced our hand, agriculturally, into practices and methods that we perhaps would never have used otherwise, simply to feed these people. Chicken and egg, though, without these drastic shifts in agricultural methods, we probably would not have had 7+ billion in the first place. Either way we're facing an ecological disaster thanks to global overconsumption. In the (sadly increasingly unlikely) case that our civilization survives it mostly-intact, it would be more than prudent to have a better way of handling this to prevent any future disasters. There is nuance here, CommieGIR. I challenge you to examine it. CommieGIR posted:We'll have bigger emissions hits by switching off coal and gas than we will switching off industrial agriculture that currently does feed our planet. Okay, I regret going back on my resolution to not address you anymore. Local farms are supplementary, not a total replacement. Local farms are incredibly useful because they can help absorb ecological and economic shocks to the industrial system. You are responding to him as if he's advocating for an extreme position that exists mostly in your mind.
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# ¿ Jun 10, 2016 23:03 |
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# ¿ May 14, 2024 12:01 |
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Anos posted:Why do you think local production will result in less food waste from producers and retailers? Less food lost in transportation, to name one thing. As for other reasons, when customers buy directly (or near-directly) from farms they are more likely to forgive superficial flaws thanks to an assurance of quality from the farmer and a knowledge that the farmer is responsible for it. When you buy something from a faceless corporation in a supermarket, and it's discolored and deformed, you have no idea whether this is just something that occasionally happens and is normal, or if it represents a severe or dangerous defect in the manufacturing process. Maybe some pesticide leaked into the food? Maybe some industrial mixer screwed up the alchemical balance of the pureed corn that goes into your Dorito? Who knows? Better safe than sorry and spewing from two ends at once, and you reach for something else instead. But the lumpy potato you buy from Farmer Myles? "Oh, that one had to grow around a rock. Just slice off that eye there and you're good to go!" Anything that's left over? Compost and fed to the pigs. Or, you know, we could keep on putting it in the dumpsters. Anos posted:Why do you want to go back? Partly because the consequences of an increase of five billion people in sixty years is destroying the planet. If we manage to survive that I'd rather not repeat the same mistake. There's that rhetorical trick, again. "You want to go back to being mud-encrusted and starving?!" It's {current year}, we've learned a shitload about farming techniques and technologies that we can apply to local and smaller farms. There has been significant improvement and education. It's not a "going back", it's "fixing and improving what we're doing." The system does work, yes. Precariously. It is not a stable system. Running out of fossil fuels will shatter this system. A potential collapse of globalism will utterly devastate this system. Climate change and especially the ensuing political chaos will completely mutilate the remnants of this system. If population centers at least have a network of nearby farms (of large and small size) that they can fall back on, instead of being utterly and completely reliant on shipping food across the Pacific from California, then any potential loss of human life will be mitigated to significant amounts. Stability aside for now. We have only a vague idea what all these antibiotics being poured into our meat is doing to us (and to our water supply). We do know that antibiotic resistance is increasing at scary amounts, though! We're experiencing the aftermath of injecting corn into every part of our food process, and the aftermath is an overlarge, fleshy, and wheezing population. China began importing Western food and Western practices; an obesity crisis is growing in China. These antibiotics and all the parts of the corn kernel are specifically because of our factory farming practices.
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# ¿ Jun 11, 2016 00:22 |