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If only we had
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Aug 14, 2016 22:40
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| # ? May 5, 2024 12:59 |
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Capitalist markets are hugely inefficient, yes. And there's no evidence command economies are able to even meet that sub optimal levels of success at meeting consumer demand. Command economies are good at delivering 100 million identical objects. People however don't want 100 million identical objects of most things. And that's before you get into the issue of the people who decide what 100 million objects get produced may not be completely on the level. A
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Aug 14, 2016 22:44
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Advice: avoid the use of the phrase labour power ever and emphasize the advertising one rather than the fact that capitalism provides more than one state approved toaster.
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Aug 14, 2016 22:44
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It's basically an information and logistical problem each way. If the government wants 100 million of something, a command economy can deliver those very efficiently. If you and ten thousand other people want something however, for that information to make it to the command economy will be much slower and less efficient (if even possible) than a market economy, with many smaller players which are consumer focused, will deliver. Most things people want in developed economies at least are much closer to the latter case of needing a limited run of something than the former case of needing the same thing for everyone.
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Aug 14, 2016 22:50
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Oh, is that what we're doing now?
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Aug 14, 2016 22:51
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Amazing how the Soviet model of single path led to a technological supremacy over the Western model of redundancy (which in this case means robustness). Also lol if you think Socialist countries didn't spend a shitload of labour and money on marketing their bad idea to the people. They did, because in absence of a self-correcting supply demand equilibrium, convincing people to adjust their spending habits to align with the central plan was a crucial task, otherwise the system would produce even more waste than it did.
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Aug 14, 2016 22:53
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Yes, because the worker discipline and economic efficiency of the Soviet Union allowed them to develop and advance into the computer age so seemlessly. With the efficiency and superiority of Soviet economy it confounds me how everyone was poor and miserable and their economy stagnated and slowly fell to ruin from the 70s to the 90s. 
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Aug 14, 2016 22:54
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Ormi posted:Oh, is that what we're doing now? This is a good representation of the argument discussed itt, yes.
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Aug 14, 2016 22:53
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Nazareth posted:Yes, because the worker discipline and economic efficiency of the Soviet Union allowed them to develop and advance into the computer age so seemlessly. With the efficiency and superiority of Soviet economy it confounds me how everyone was poor and miserable and their economy stagnated and slowly fell to ruin from the 70s to the 90s. Just getting a plumber to take a look at your broken faucet was an uphill struggle that usually ended up with bribing somebody to do the job they were paid to perform, and all the housing projects were severely hurt by the workers cutting corners and stealing construction materials - but it was because the system was efficient wrt labour allocation! steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Aug 14, 2016 |
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Aug 14, 2016 22:56
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Every morning when I go to the gym, I curse the invisible hand of
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Aug 14, 2016 23:02
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If you think the clowns in the thread are bad, you should see Jason Unruhe. Maoist Rebel News he labels his Youtube show, and there you can find all the up to date lovely opinions a Communist would have on things that matter.
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Aug 14, 2016 23:06
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Jack of Hearts posted:Every morning when I go to the gym, I curse the invisible hand of I've always said that automobile industry peaked with the Trabant, and the fact that capitalist reactionaries have been funneling funds into developing "better" cars and selling them to the people just shows their fatal folly. Our car can drive forward (usually), their cars can drive forward, what's the difference? Why bother investing into research and development when you can instead manufacture a proven classic, knowing there's literally nobody to compete with you. And while you are at it, why even bother showing up to work on time? Start the day drinking at the pub instead, then show up at work only to steal some spare parts you've been meaning to use for your tinkering projects. It's not like the management will give a crap.
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Aug 14, 2016 23:07
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I kinda feel bad for all the scientists and engineers who would be left unemployed as a result of the massive increase in efficiency that would occur were Mans to be made our leader, but I suppose that's what reeducation camps are for.
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Aug 14, 2016 23:24
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Jack of Hearts posted:I kinda feel bad for all the scientists and engineers who would be left unemployed as a result of the massive increase in efficiency that would occur were Mans to be made our leader, but I suppose that's what reeducation camps are for. Don't worry, reverse engineering the inefficient developments made by stupid capitalists would employ a lot of them. Quite possibly even more people than was required to make the initial invention! (It's efficient because it ensures higher employment rate)
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Aug 14, 2016 23:26
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Ormi posted:Oh, is that what we're doing now? This gross idiot is pissing on his own gunsight probably
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Aug 14, 2016 23:37
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Can't kill revisionist Czechs with a pissy gunsight.
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Aug 14, 2016 23:38
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Remember to oppose Stalinism is to be a fascist ancap.
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Aug 14, 2016 23:39
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"Hi, I'm a concerned citizen, and I'm worried about the impact of your new factory on my town, could you perhaps infor..." "NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! DEALING WITH PUBLIC RELATIONS IS GROSSLY INEFFICIENT! ALL ISSUES HAVE BEEN SETTLED BETWEEN US AND THE GOVERNMENT IN CLASSIFIED NEGOTIATIONS!"
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Aug 14, 2016 23:45
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steinrokkan posted:"Hi, I'm a concerned citizen, and I'm worried about the impact of your new factory on my town, could you perhaps infor..." *Pours flour into nuclear waste storage pool hoping it'll turn into dough and block the numerous leaks into the water table*
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Aug 15, 2016 00:29
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Parallel tech development is actually not necessarily bad or redundant because even if the endpoint is broadly the same there's often multiple different production methods or details in the end product and having multiple products lets you figure out which ones are the most efficient. If there's only 1 state owned bureau which is developing for some economic sector oftentimes you end up with really lovely versions of tech because there's no competition to knock it out of the market after bureau hosed up. Typo fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 01:06
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Nazareth posted:If you think the clowns in the thread are bad, you should see Jason Unruhe. Maoist Rebel News he labels his Youtube show, and there you can find all the up to date lovely opinions a Communist would have on things that matter.
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Aug 15, 2016 01:07
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Also I think it's beyond obvious that the Berlin wall came up because a substantial percentage of East German citizens would have choose to flee to the capitalist west if emigration was freely allowed. This in turn threatens the DDR's existence as a viable state. the current problem with American immigration isn't that people want to leave it's that too many people wants to come in. Tells you a lot if you think about it.
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Aug 15, 2016 01:08
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Maybe neither capitalism nor maoism are religions. Just as a general response to the idea that this Jason guy is floating.
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Aug 15, 2016 01:30
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Typo posted:Tells you a lot if you think about it. Eh. Does it? Immigrants from Mexico and Central America are coming from a part of the world repeatedly destabilized by the US. By way of comparison, a substantial part of the responsibility for how North Korea became what it is today rests with their patrons in China. The fact that North Koreans risk life and limb trying to flee to China doesn't really redound to the credit of the Chinese, in my mind. So really, I don't think it tells us much of anything.
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Aug 15, 2016 01:39
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HorseLord posted:tibet was a part of china where there was slavery. the communists went in and got rid of the slavery. i don't see the problem Calling the Tibetan caste system "slavery" is hugely misleading. It was a very bad system, but PRC rule hasn't proven to be much of an improvement.
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Aug 15, 2016 02:15
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It's kind of funny how communists like to ignore that Cambodia happened.
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Aug 15, 2016 02:58
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-Troika- posted:It's kind of funny how communists like to ignore that Cambodia happened. This entire thread has been about "leftists" ignoring horrible poo poo inconvenient to their play-by-post interactive fanfiction narrative.
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Aug 15, 2016 06:49
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-Troika- posted:It's kind of funny how communists like to ignore that Cambodia happened. In the interests of fairness, the U.S. ended up in the hilariously awful position of propping up the Khmer Rogue after Vietnam attacked them. Because Cold War gently caress You politics. 
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Aug 15, 2016 07:34
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:In the interests of fairness, the U.S. ended up in the hilariously awful position of propping up the Khmer Rogue after Vietnam attacked them. Because Cold War gently caress You politics. The US supported KPNLF and ANS not Khmer Rogue.
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Aug 15, 2016 08:27
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:In the interests of fairness, the U.S. ended up in the hilariously awful position of propping up the Khmer Rogue after Vietnam attacked them. Because Cold War gently caress You politics. I think Thatcher was more of a supporter of Pol Pot than Carter. But yes, Cambodia was ended by a Vietnamese invasion.
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Aug 15, 2016 10:38
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karthun posted:The US supported KPNLF and ANS not Khmer Rogue. That was it, yeah. Although God knows we did enough idiotic and hosed up poo poo in SE Asia that I wouldn't be surprised if we somehow ended up aiding the loving Khmer Rouge after they were overthrown just to gently caress with Vietnam.
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Aug 15, 2016 12:51
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-Troika- posted:It's kind of funny how communists like to ignore that Cambodia happened. communists are actually very glad that cambodia was liberated from the khmer rouge by communists
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Aug 15, 2016 16:58
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Typo posted:Parallel tech development is actually not necessarily bad or redundant because even if the endpoint is broadly the same there's often multiple different production methods or details in the end product and having multiple products lets you figure out which ones are the most efficient. If there's only 1 state owned bureau which is developing for some economic sector oftentimes you end up with really lovely versions of tech because there's no competition to knock it out of the market after bureau hosed up. Hence the USSR putting different tank factories or whatever against each other in design competitions.
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Aug 15, 2016 17:04
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P-Mack posted:Hence the USSR putting different tank factories or whatever against each other in design competitions. Even the Soviets got why that image is retarded, awesome.
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Aug 15, 2016 17:15
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P-Mack posted:Hence the USSR putting different tank factories or whatever against each other in design competitions. The T-62 and T-72 were actually great examples of product development and selection made via politics and odd executive demands rather than sound judgement and efficiency. The T-62 got a 115mm gun because a key general threw a fit over the better performance 100mm gun being physically smaller than the 105mm guns on many Western tanks. It then had to be smoothbore because Khruschev had a massive erection for missiles and demanded the new tank be able to shoot missiles out of the gun in the future at some point. The T-72 happened because a tank factory defied the order to make the T-64 (designed by the other factory) after being directed to do so because the military and government didn't want a mountain of similar spec but differently designed tanks. So they pulled strings to instead produce a slightly modified version of the T-64. They then proceeded to redesign 3/4s of the tank and rebranded it as a more economic model. In the end it looked like a T-64, was perpetually identical in weapons/protection/gizmos/etc. to an older model of T-64 (thus cost savings!), and had zero parts compatibility. With regards to stagnation, despite the huge number of tank models they all ended up pretty samey. For example, they all have a tendency to incinerate the crew, murder them in turret-tossing catastrophic explosions, or wholly vanish in an earth shattering boom when a projectile makes it through the armor. This is due to using only 2 similar autoloader designs (T-64 style and T-72 style) along with WWII style ammo storage solutions amounting to "bolt that poo poo all over the walls of the crew space." but with much larger modern ammo. It wasn't until the 90's that prototypes were made to implement improvements made by NATO during the 70's. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 17:49
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HorseLord posted:communists are actually very glad that cambodia was liberated from the khmer rouge by communists Weird that every tinpot rightist dictator is a fascist, but the Khmer Rouge don't count as communists. It's almost as if you just define words in whatever way suits you in the moment.
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Aug 15, 2016 17:54
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| # ? May 5, 2024 12:59 |
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Hello, everyone. I took a few minutes to skim my posts in this thread, to see if some of the accusations hurled my and others' way had any bearing in fact. I can't speak for other posters, but the tendency from most — not all — has been to wildly misinterpret my words, whether in good or bad faith, to the point where discussing the historical circumstances for various government policies (or explaining them, natch) has been construed to mean approval or defense of those policies. Some people have engaged with this thread's topic honestly, responding to things I and others have actually said rather than some version of what they imagine I believe. Some have not, choosing instead to attack fictional people who to my knowledge have never made a post here. The latter outnumbers the former. The most egregious recent example:owDAWG posted:I wonder if HE and HorseLord are trolling at this point. I mean pointing out NK as a model for a perfect society? Defending Mao's policies which lead to widespread famine because only "yes men" could survive the political climate? No one has said this, yet it's taken as fact by others without a second thought. I have no problem discussing the things I actually believe, but it serves no purpose to honestly engage this kind of misrepresentation. That's not to mention the straight-up hostility from others, again regarding positions I don't personally hold. I don't see how what I've posted thus far has indicated I support the loving Stasi or the Berlin Wall, but if that's the impression others have gotten, let me clear the air: I do not. Nor do I believe actually existing socialism is in any way perfect or incapable of error. I prepped a nice long post about the real, historical conditions for the people in the DDR but realized it was way, way off topic and better suited to a general purpose thread on what a "new socialism" could look like, strengths and weaknesses of past governments, what to adopt and what not to, etc. That might come later. As for this thread, with all the bad faith posting going on and general misconceptions about what I and others think — misconceptions which appear to have purchase among the mods of this forum, it's best to close the thread before things get out of hand. Again.
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Aug 15, 2016 18:17
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