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gobbagool posted:"class motivations" how dare those horrible horrible people dare want full stomachs and fulfilling careers! Are you reading what you're typing? It's not ideological or class driven to want the best for your family and yourself. Maybe if your Lord and Savior Marx didn't have such horrible ideas about how to run an economy, all those East Germans would have stayed where they were and not uprooted their lives and put themselves at risk to flee. God this is so bad it makes me want to side with HW.
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Aug 12, 2016 09:15
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Jewel Repetition posted:God this is so bad it makes me want to side with HW. ...Bush?
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Aug 12, 2016 09:43
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Homework Explainer posted:Some more details on that front are here. Gowans mentions the East Germans ratified their constitutions in '49 and '68 but doesn't go into detail like this guy does, who is a historian and not a commie as far as I can tell. Contrast with the FRG constitution, put into effect merely with the Allies' signature. Ahahaha thus whole article describes a sham democracy with a toothless general rubberstamp parliament heavily stuffed with communist supporting groups and outright admits that the 99% popular votes for the natiinal front were all, essentially, fabricated. gently caress me man, I know it's crass to reply like this to someone on probation for a few days but could you self-own any harder? Hell it basically says this was a potemkin democracy. You can't just call something a democracy and basically have no way for people to vote against you. Thanks for posting it anyway, it was an interesting read. NLJP fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Aug 12, 2016 |
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Aug 12, 2016 10:16
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NLJP posted:Ahahaha thus whole article describes a sham democracy with a toothless general rubberstamp parliament heavily stuffed with communist supporting groups and outright admits that the 99% popular votes for the natiinal front were all, essentially, fabricated. Drowning people in "sources" is his stand-in for actual argumentation, and based on past experience I think it's highly likely he didn't even read what he linked, just made a light pass to see if it "supported" what he was saying. A quirk of vulgar authoritarianism.
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Aug 12, 2016 10:40
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Jewel Repetition posted:God this is so bad it makes me want to side with HW. The thread had some cool discussion for the first part but now it's mostly disingenuous scrabbling for dunks. Is this what it's like for right-wingers watching D&D attempt to discuss libertarianism?
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Aug 12, 2016 10:57
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I have some real things to say about the discussion over the last few pages, but I'm just popping in to point out that, in general, DnD does discuss things much better than many people give it credit for, especially when compared to the rest of the internet. But these kind of heated discussions always have a tendency to create sore losers (on both sides), so the reporting on the discussion in DnD is heavily skewed. The whole DnD  is just a meme.
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Aug 12, 2016 12:06
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Jewel Repetition posted:God this is so bad it makes me want to side with HW. Why is it so bad? I find it offensive that individuals should be punished for wanting a better life. Do you?
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Aug 12, 2016 14:33
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gobbagool posted:Why is it so bad? It appears to me not to contribute to the discussion as is, because it is mostly wanton indulgent strawmanning of HE's positions. That would be my assessment. There's enough wrong and distinctly, stridently unsound about HE's assertions and the general anti-imperialist strategy being presented here so far that there should be no need to make them into things that they are not. It's just a distraction.
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Aug 12, 2016 14:59
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Kavros posted:It appears to me not to contribute to the discussion as is, because it is mostly wanton indulgent strawmanning of HE's positions. That would be my assessment. That's a fair criticism, and I obviously let my emotions get the better of me, but I find his stated opinion repulsive, that the desires of the individual should always and forever be subordinate to the needs of the State. It's not as if the actual practice of Communism is some abstract academic notion, we've seen the pattern repeated over and over again, and every single goddamned time it ends up as a totalitarian regime complete with suppression of freedom, and the 'worker' getting hosed, yet we have an OP arguing that somehow the individuals in those nations are really better off, because they are part of this imaginary coalition whose primary purpose is to "oppose imperialism" rather than "rob everybody blind and destroy anyone who dare disagree" At it's heart it's a tremendously illiberal proposition, and im not sure why self professed liberals would entertain it, even for a second. edit: and that's just the tip of the iceberg. We got to learn what HE thinks about migrants too
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Aug 12, 2016 15:15
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Kavros posted:It appears to me not to contribute to the discussion as is, because it is mostly wanton indulgent strawmanning of HE's positions. That would be my assessment. There's no "anti-imperialist strategy", the only thing going on is apologetics and diminishing of the significance of one brand of imperialism just to make the other brand look culpable for all the world's problems.
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Aug 12, 2016 15:41
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That would be one particular glaring weakness worth noting, yes. I mean, there is a 'strategy' which is largely self-selects among its adherents for the ability to ignore or excuse the cruelties and overt imperialist tendencies of their 'anti-imperialist' bloc, in order to satisfy a prerequisite ideological notion of state socialism / communism as the temporarily embarrassed 'relatively crisis proof' savior of the world's peoples from capitalist tyranny. That they appear to have the lion's share of overt tyrants and profoundly illiberal governing conditions must be written off as immaterial in some way. Or so it presently appears.quote:At it's heart it's a tremendously illiberal proposition, and im not sure why self professed liberals would entertain it, even for a second. Liberals promoting illiberal things is nothing unusual, even without referencing something like horseshoe theory and noting that after a certain point the anti-imperialists have begun to resemble imperialists and fascists more than they resemble any mainstream political group. As a perfect example, america's current political theatre is dominated by a roughshod adjustment to whether its conservatives largely support conservatism, or whether they really have in a decade or more. Humans can take any ideal and stretch it out to mean whatever they want it to mean. You have devout protestants who have convinced themselves that jesus had a prosperity gospel, libertarians who are certain that they are both objectivists and christians, TERF's pretending that true feminists must subscribe to a brutally condemning gender essentialism -- how different or unusual is it to have marxist/leninist types carefully walking us through the supposed necessities of bleak totalitarianism in service of supposedly leftist ideals?
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Aug 12, 2016 15:58
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Kavros posted:That would be one particular glaring weakness worth noting, yes. I mean, there is a 'strategy' which is largely self-selects among its adherents for the ability to ignore or excuse the cruelties and overt imperialist tendencies of their 'anti-imperialist' bloc, in order to satisfy a prerequisite ideological notion of state socialism / communism as the temporarily embarrassed 'relatively crisis proof' savior of the world's peoples from capitalist tyranny. That they appear to have the lion's share of overt tyrants and profoundly illiberal governing conditions must be written off as immaterial in some way. Or so it presently appears. Indeed, using contemporary American political discourse and definition to contextualize HE's thesis lowers that bar almost to where it makes sense. Almost.
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Aug 12, 2016 16:08
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Homework Explainer posted:Korean unification won't happen as long as the United States plays war games and performs nuclear exercises on the border I got a feeling I know which under which of the two Korean governments homework explainer wants unification to be pursued under
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Aug 12, 2016 16:15
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Typo posted:I got a feeling I know which under which of the two Korean governments homework explainer wants unification to be pursued under You don't even need a feeling, he came right out and said it. His preference is human misery, as long as the benefactors of said misery strike the right pose against the US
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Aug 12, 2016 17:41
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gobbagool posted:You don't even need a feeling, he came right out and said it. His preference is human misery, as long as the benefactors of said misery strike the right pose against the US I don't think he prefers human misery. Rather, he's under the strong impression that stories of human misery out of North Korea are overblown and/or Western propaganda. In the previous tankie thread, the Grover Furr one, he said he actually wanted to go to NK on tour to see how things really were for himself. Speaking of, HE, if you're reading this, when you go to North Korea, please get me a propaganda poster as a souvenir. Not from the NK gift shop, I mean a real one. Just go ahead and surreptitiously tear one off the walls when your minders aren't looking. I'll send you my address once you're home safe and sound.
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Aug 12, 2016 17:48
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The university I went to actually had a student exchange program with the DPRK, and I considered going there in my naivety. Ultimately I decided against it, fortunately. Anyway, I don't think he even thinks the stories are overblown, he just thinks that 1) any hardship is in service of a greater good 2) the suffering is caused by foreign sabotage, and therefore is a proof that they are doing the right thing because the US are afraid of them.
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Aug 12, 2016 19:07
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I'm pretty sure he does think a lot of the stories about North Korea are overblown or made up, but that's correct so it's hard to make too much hay out of it in itself.
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Aug 12, 2016 20:54
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Peel posted:I'm pretty sure he does think a lot of the stories about North Korea are overblown or made up, but that's correct so it's hard to make too much hay out of it in itself. OK, that's a pretty good dodge, let's ask this more directly. Which Government (North Korea or South Korea) does a better job of improving the lives and rights of it's Citizens? Is the price of opposing "American Imperialism" worth what the North Korean people have given up, in terms of individual freedom, ability to emigrate, to have enough to eat?
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Aug 12, 2016 21:42
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Kavros posted:It appears to me not to contribute to the discussion as is, because it is mostly wanton indulgent strawmanning of HE's positions. That would be my assessment. This thread doesn't suck because people are being mean to literal human garbage, it sucks because its a thread about defending other greater examples of human garbage for the sake sticking one to The Man, the opening post written by an individual who does not give one iota of a poo poo about actual human beings and the actual suffering they have undergone in the places he has lionized as examples anti-US imperialism, to be supported regardless of their many actual and well documented flaws. It sucks because the very premise from the beginning is flawed and immoral at best, and it sucks because of the ongoing defenses of his thesis continuously overlook specific, inconvenient instances of human suffering. In his words, it's better than nothing. I'm sure everyone in Syria and Cuba all universally agree with such a sentiment in his fantasy land. I remember having a similar conversation with other self-styled "leftists" on this board a very long time ago about Cuban immigrants, of which my mother happens to be one. I have heard stories from her of friends she'd known all her life disappearing after visits from "officials". How a boy she knew who was eventually sent abroad to "spread revolution" and never returned. How she learned of the forced labor camps after watching people lead out of their homes in literal chains. How she only just managed to convince police officers to allow her mother and father to leave their home without incident on the day they finally got their papers to leave the island. And someone very much like Homework Explainer laughed this off as the ravings of a Expat who has probably done something to be forced out her country of birth. Don't act surprised about people dunking on the dude. Much akin to the hardcore Freeper, people like Homework Explainer actually do not give a poo poo about others when they try to talk about human suffering. To them it's a way to score points on a internet discussion about things they are so detached from that they can easily rationalize amazingly horrible poo poo. As long as they can twist the argument just enough to overlook those things, all for the sake of slaking a thirst for feeling morally superior, anything goes. Hence the very title of the thread. It's incredibly easy to be some goon in a cheap office chain typing up treatises on the necessity of "sacrifices" to stand up to Imperialism, how it's better than nothing at all, but people like Homework Explainer too quickly forget that they live in a place where they get to say things like this with far more freedom than any of the the places he listed in the OP. Forget that he can do so generally without the fear of having secret police squads haul him out of said chair, or without the fear of having his neighborhood subjected to an extended siege that cuts off all basic necessities for weeks or months at a time while caught up in the middle of a civil war and an invasion of foreign fighters. The most he sacrifices is minutes at a keyboard to fire off another hand-wringing justification for not actually giving a poo poo about the people. He will, just like you and I, never be forced into a life or death struggle just to post lovely opinions on the internet. If you want to have a genuine conversation about Anti-Imperialism and the grievous flaws of American Exceptionalism, have one, but don't expect to be taken seriously if you're going to prop up loving CUBA, CHINA, NORTH KOREA, VENEZUELA, RUSSIA, IRAN, and SYRIA as bastions of hope for a better tomorrow against the "yanquis". You may as well send your hopes and prayers on a Facebook post for all the good you're not willing to go out and accomplish.
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Aug 12, 2016 23:12
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welcome back "you're allowed to say it so you shouldn't", you're an argument that's not been seen for at least a page
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Aug 13, 2016 02:08
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HorseLord posted:welcome back "you're allowed to say it so you shouldn't", you're an argument that's not been seen for at least a page "I'm being censored because people yell at me when I say the n-word" but for tankies.
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Aug 13, 2016 02:11
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HorseLord posted:welcome back "you're allowed to say it so you shouldn't", you're an argument that's not been seen for at least a page That's a really bad faith interpretation of what the guy actually wrote, and really does nothing at all to make this thread any better.
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Aug 13, 2016 02:14
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Absurd Alhazred posted:"I'm being censored because people yell at me when I say the n-word" but for tankies. If you're going to make the argument that people should show their gratefulness for being allowed to dissent by not dissenting, you're demonstrating that freedom to dissent isn't something you believe in except as a democracy fig leaf.
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Aug 13, 2016 02:15
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Pretty sure he never said anything about not dissenting, just that being allowed to dissent doesn't mean anyone will take your dissent seriously or refrain from criticizing you. Or do you believe that freedom of speech should also entail freedom from having your speech criticized?
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Aug 13, 2016 02:18
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"People make fun of my lovely opinions, whatever happened to free speech?!?!  "
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Aug 13, 2016 02:20
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Alexander Solzhenitsyn if you hate communism so much how come you have a tv from moscow radio works and live in a Khrushchyovka
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Aug 13, 2016 02:29
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Absurd Alhazred posted:"People make fun of my lovely opinions, whatever happened to free speech?!?! Or, the high school debate version, "you're censoring my right to censor you!!!!"
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Aug 13, 2016 02:30
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HorseLord posted:welcome back "you're allowed to say it so you shouldn't", you're an argument that's not been seen for at least a page Okay, so like brainiac five before you, I'm severely doubting you have significant interest in argument, but ... I mean, your acute displeasure at people who disagree with you is now readily noted. We have received your contempt, loud and clear. What do you want to accomplish beyond that? I still have an outstanding question if you are interested in it. As had been noted, it is a hypothetical question and is not designed as a trap - I offer it in good faith.
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Aug 13, 2016 02:40
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gobbagool posted:OK, that's a pretty good dodge, let's ask this more directly. Which Government (North Korea or South Korea) does a better job of improving the lives and rights of it's Citizens? Is the price of opposing "American Imperialism" worth what the North Korean people have given up, in terms of individual freedom, ability to emigrate, to have enough to eat? The South, duh.
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Aug 13, 2016 02:41
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HorseLord posted:welcome back "you're allowed to say it so you shouldn't", you're an argument that's not been seen for at least a page Debate & Discussion: You have a constitutional right to be a dumbass
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Aug 13, 2016 03:42
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fivegears4reverse posted:This thread doesn't suck because people are being mean to literal human garbage, it sucks because its a thread about defending other greater examples of human garbage for the sake sticking one to The Man, the opening post written by an individual who does not give one iota of a poo poo about actual human beings and the actual suffering they have undergone in the places he has lionized as examples anti-US imperialism, to be supported regardless of their many actual and well documented flaws. It sucks because the very premise from the beginning is flawed and immoral at best, and it sucks because of the ongoing defenses of his thesis continuously overlook specific, inconvenient instances of human suffering. In his words, it's better than nothing. I'm sure everyone in Syria and Cuba all universally agree with such a sentiment in his fantasy land. Most cuban emigres are right-wingers who would be(and definitely were) very amenable to contra-style death squads. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 13, 2016 04:26
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Panzeh posted:Most cuban emigres are right-wingers who would be(and definitely were) very amenable to contra-style death squads. On a scale of one to citizens of Poland, how deserving of death are they?
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Aug 13, 2016 04:35
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Communism: as many sacrifices as neccesary to fight The Man. Just so long as it's other people being sacrificed, and not me.  Panzeh posted:Most cuban emigres are right-wingers who would be(and definitely were) very amenable to contra-style death squads. You got any proof of that? And I mean real proof, not some third world maoism blog.
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Aug 13, 2016 05:02
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Panzeh posted:Most cuban emigres are right-wingers who would be(and definitely were) very amenable to contra-style death squads. This is also true of most Vietnamese emigres. Proof? They vote republican. 
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Aug 13, 2016 05:04
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Homework Explainer posted:Dissent — of a certain type, anyway — is permitted now, when things are relatively stable. If the population gets restless, if state power begins to feel as though it's under threat, you'll see how tenuous a grasp liberal democracies have on such values. Soooo liiiiiiiike Okay so I read this and I imagine a boxcar race with two kids, where one kid's car has four wheels, and the second kid's car has none, so the second kid takes a break from dragging his wheel-less box across the road to say "yeah well that first kid's boxcar has such a tenuous grasp on wheels, they could lose one if they hit some bumps." Man okay yes that is a potential problem but this does not make your wheel-less chump car paradigm look any better. So we establish liberal democracies might get rid of the many forms of dissent that communist/marxist/whatever nations were horrid at providing in the first place. And usually didn't. tenuous grasp > noooo grasp at all. And on top of that even if we took a situation where a form of dissent is allowed by both I got good money riding on that any situation that would rid the citizens of the liberal democracy of a form of dissent in a hot second would see a comparable communist nation dumping it in a hot femtosecond. Stability of civil rights was never their strong suit no matter what sort of externalities marxists want to blame poo poo on. Right?
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Aug 13, 2016 05:13
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no dude, marxist-leninist states are constantly beset by their more prosperous neighbours, and this justifies repressive state apparatuses to defend communism, the superior economic system despite its inferiority at, well, everything
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Aug 13, 2016 05:26
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I halfway want to pick that apart as a gross mischaracterization but I mean I did really just read this whole part about justifying berlin wallery and all of that, in whole or in part. And before that unless I am hallucinating ... was there a defense of China's treatment of Tibet as actually OK somehow? What was it that made that suddenly somehow super excusable?
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Aug 13, 2016 05:38
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Aug 13, 2016 06:00
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HorseLord posted:welcome back "you're allowed to say it so you shouldn't", you're an argument that's not been seen for at least a page No, Stalin was not a great leader.
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Aug 13, 2016 06:10
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Rawress posted:And before that unless I am hallucinating ... was there a defense of China's treatment of Tibet as actually OK somehow? What was it that made that suddenly somehow super excusable? China's kapparomeo fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Aug 13, 2016 |
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Aug 13, 2016 07:48
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