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Matinee posted:As a side note, we really should have a 60s spy TV Megathread. Should anyone be interested, I spent way too much time doing a huge write-up of The Prisoner's ITC sister show Department S. The Number 2 in the OP is played by Department S's star Peter Wyngarde, aka the irrepressible Jason King - the inspiration for Austin Powers!
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Jun 21, 2016 18:30
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Random Stranger posted:I wouldn't read too much into the German. The Village is very cosmopolitan. Yeah, I think the German is irrelevant. Number 2 tells him "Au reviour" which is French for "until I see you again" and Cobb responds with "Auf wiedersehen" which is German for "until I see you again". Just being Cosmopolitan is all. Although, the "ok" hand shape from the eyebrow is concerning, we also saw the shopkeep at the beginning do it, and Number 6 made a specific note of it happening before he left the shop. When Number 6 first meets Cobb in the hospital, and Number 6 asks how he got there, Cobb tells him he was last in Germany before being abducted and taken to the village. So not really a surprise he might speak German as a reflex, if he'd been immersed in the language for a while. What I do find concerning about Cobb is that Number 2 refers to him by name, not by a number. We don't know how long Cobb has been there, he tells Number 6 "Three, four weeks? Months?" in the hospital before he jumps out the window, killing himself. Of course, Number 6 never sees the body, just takes the doctor's word for it. Later Number 6 meets the woman who says she only knew Cobb for a little while, and that they met in the village. Nothing concrete on how long Cobb (or even the woman) had been there. But even though the woman is working for Number 2 presumably tracking Cobb (possibly while Cobb is already working for them?) and later Number 6, she seems to genuinely want to help Cobb and Number 6 escape, and seems upset when the captain insinuates that she's been caught saying, "We're all pawns, my dear". And the fact that Cobb asks Number 2 not to be too hard on her means she probably wasn't supposed to be helping them try to escape. I'm probably putting more thought into this than the writers did, but it would seem that Cobb was there long enough to give them all the information they wanted on him, which I'm guessing wasn't enough to convince them to let him go, so he begins working with them. There's machinations within machinations, as the woman is helping Cobb and then Number 2 try to escape, possibly all while Cobb is working for "his new masters" and while she's supposed to be presumably monitoring the both of them. I guess getting to Number 6 was so important that Cobb helping to do it was enough to get him a release from the Village, even though he's still working for whomever runs the village. But I think I recall hearing that not everything is revealed by the end of the series, so either it wasn't able to be added in, the writers wanted to keep it ambiguous and not provide answers, or there just aren't any answers to give, and they're just making it all up for the intrigue without any extraneous "world building." I know I've seen the scene at the beginning where Rover is attacking Number 6 on the beach, and I'm pretty sure I've seen the very ending scene of the series, because my Mom was a fan back in the day, but I don't recall anything else about the series, so I guess I'll keep watching, and see if any memories are jogged free, or if it's all new to me. Random Stranger posted:That wasn't the theme in the US. This was: Eh, that's a common thing in spy fiction. Destroy your real identity so your past can't be used against you at all, and give you a number (James Bond being 007) so you're all mysterious, or in the case of the Village, not a person. Of course, spy fiction makes being a spy more badass than it usually is. Most spies are just people with access to information who can be bullied or coerced into giving up that information to enemy powers, often times because they have some secret shame that can be exploited. It's easier to get someone who's already got the access to give you what you want than it is to try and insert someone, and get them to that level of trust (or try to brute force their way into it).
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Jun 21, 2016 18:32
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Uh, I'd heavily argue against the languages being utterly irrelevant. They're certainly meant, metatextually, to make the viewer take certain assumptions. Remember that East Germany was behind the Iron Curtain at the time the show was made. Now whether it's meant to explictly mean the Village is a Commie plot, I'll more than happily say I think that's not the case.
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Jun 21, 2016 23:09
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It is interesting that we as viewers are privy to information that the Prisoner is not (Like Cobb being alive/working for "them"), but that I still feel that information is intended to be just as misleading/confusing for us as it would be for the Prisoner if he was aware of it. I don't put any credence on any cutaway "reveals" we get - the default nature of the village and the status of most of the inhabitants as fellow prisoners who have been broken and put to work for the system seems to indicate that nobody anywhere is ever telling the truth to anybody else.
Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Jun 22, 2016 |
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Jun 21, 2016 23:18
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Gaz-L posted:Uh, I'd heavily argue against the languages being utterly irrelevant. They're certainly meant, metatextually, to make the viewer take certain assumptions. Remember that East Germany was behind the Iron Curtain at the time the show was made. Now whether it's meant to explictly mean the Village is a Commie plot, I'll more than happily say I think that's not the case. I always took it, along with the map seller speaking unidentified foreign language and the taxi driver's bit about thinking 6 is possibly a pole or a czech as a way of implying that it's normal for people from both sides of the iron curtain to be there. It's an international place. As someone who is British it's quite often easy to forget that there are some weird British cultural things mixed in with the deliberately weird stuff, but as someone who wasn't alive in the 60s and was still a child at the end of the cold war I'm sure there's historically cultural things that I'm missing as well. I don't know if it's deliberate but for instance the distinctive jackets that some of the residents of the village wear are reminiscent of the coloured jackets staff at British holiday camps wear. The whole village is reminiscent of these places, which are still going, but were massively popular in the days before widespread foreign holidays.
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Jun 21, 2016 23:40
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I've meant to watch The Prisoner for a while now, and this thread gave me an incentive to finally do it. Now I'm here writing this instead of watching past the second episode (according to the list in the op - so I've seen Arrival and Dance of the Dead, the carnival one). I like how they don't mind leaving things unexplained. Changing Number 2s in the middle of the first episode was a good move, and like someone else said, the main character just seems to accept it when the new one says "I replaced him" (well, as much as he 'accepts' anything, given the overload of other oddities he's going through). I don't really have any theories yet about the organization running the Village (the "new masters" Cobb mentions when he leaves), except for maybe some sort of international espionage Illuminati, but it's a pretty elaborate setup just for retired spies ( sorry, he resigned). Remembering that the show was made during the Cold War, the language thing is almost certainly significant, but I don't know how just yet. This show sort of reminds me of It Takes A Thief with Robert Wagner, even though they're pretty different shows - maybe it's because they look similar, because they were both made in the 60s. From what I've read about Danger Man, it seems like It Takes A Thief has more in common with that show. If I had to describe it in one sentence, it'd be "What if James Bond was an American thief who stole things for the CIA?" Alex Mundy (Robert Wagner's character) is a suave handsome cat burglar with a weakness for pretty ladies who goes around the world stealing things that the government can't be associated with, but need to have stolen (or copied or whatever). It's mostly just a heist-of-the-week (also lady-of-the-week) show, and gets predictable pretty quickly, but I think it's a fun little show that some of you might enjoy.  Also, it's got some great 60s fashion and facial hair, and the actor who plays Mundy's boss has a pretty  name: Malachi Throne (the character's name is Noah Bain, but that's only like 1/6 as cool as Malachi Throne).
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Jun 22, 2016 00:24
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The Man From UNCLE was my retro spy-show of choice when they used to re-run the movies on the British version of TNT right before wrestling. I even bought the entire series on Amazon Video a while back. A lot of people talk about how it took a while to get goofy, but I think people who say that never actually watched. It's like episode 5 of the first season before David McCallum and Robert Vaughn are trying to stop THRUSH from reviving Hitler's brain.
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Jun 22, 2016 00:31
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One more point about Cobb: Number 6 says that they met in Germany (though he doesn't specify which one). Presumably, "Auf wiedersehen" was a call back to that.
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Jun 22, 2016 00:38
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As the series goes on it will become vastly less confusing, the question "Which side controls this place?" It becomes hinted and nearly outright stated that it's a "retirement home" for people on "both sides" who know too much
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Jun 22, 2016 02:35
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So, how long should we wait between discussing episodes? Should we just move on to Dance of the Dead now?
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Jun 22, 2016 17:28
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I don't remember why I watched The Prisoner originally - I think my brother mentioned the new series was supposed to be a continuation of sorts of Secret Agent (Danger Man). I never missed an episode after seeing the first. It wasn't like anything else that had been on TV. Heck, one episode opened so weirdly that my brother and I ran to theTV Guide (remember TV Guide?) and were in the process of checking if some strange programming switch had happened when we figured out the mind-gently caress they were doing. Rover. That thing was just surreal. I've always harbored the suspicion that it inspired The Smoke Monster. The car. I always wanted that car. I didn't understand at the time when The Prisoner claims to have put every nut and bolt of it together (let's just say the Lotus/Caterham 7 is a bit of a project, though you can now buy it pre-built sans engine). Never got it, but did have an MGTD. The less said about the awful remake vaguely inspired by the original, the better.
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Jun 22, 2016 18:33
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York_M_Chan posted:So, how long should we wait between discussing episodes? Should we just move on to Dance of the Dead now? A week?
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Jun 22, 2016 20:26
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I recently watched through the series with fairly new eyes- I could only remember snippets of seeing "The Girl Who Was Death" and the Finale as a kid. One thing I kept thinking as I was watching was if the show would be more or less effective if we didn't see the behind-the-scenes workings of No2, No28, etc as you go through some episodes, keeping the focus on No6's point of view. It would've made some episodes a lot freakier. I also didn't realize until this post how strange it is that the abbreviation for "Number" is "No." Never occurred to me before.
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Jun 22, 2016 21:42
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NarkyBark posted:I also didn't realize until this post how strange it is that the abbreviation for "Number" is "No." Never occurred to me before. From the latin numero
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Jun 22, 2016 21:51
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NarkyBark posted:I recently watched through the series with fairly new eyes- I could only remember snippets of seeing "The Girl Who Was Death" and the Finale as a kid. One thing I kept thinking as I was watching was if the show would be more or less effective if we didn't see the behind-the-scenes workings of No2, No28, etc as you go through some episodes, keeping the focus on No6's point of view. It would've made some episodes a lot freakier.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:56
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Just watched the first episode. A few things -The old admiral had the same number as the blond maid, 66. Is that at all significant? -People have mentioned Dark City, but I'm also seeing a lot of the Truman Show, especially when everyone stops in sync as Rover goes after a dude. -So where did they film this? I'm curious.
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Jun 23, 2016 00:39
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The Vosgian Beast posted:-So where did they film this? I'm curious. Portmeirion. The place still exists and is well maintained, check it out next time you're in Wales.
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Jun 23, 2016 03:47
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York, just curious: is there a reason you've made your own order, rather than using one of the others?
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Jun 23, 2016 04:08
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York_M_Chan posted:So, how long should we wait between discussing episodes? Should we just move on to Dance of the Dead now? One a week seems like a good schedule to me.
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Jun 23, 2016 06:05
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Ms Boods posted:Sure that was the BBC? The Prisoner is an ITV programme....(mainly asking as I'd like to read it!) I found it! I don't know if it's as funny as I remember, but it's made me smile while skimming it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/classic/prisoner/episodeguide/index.shtml Has anyone checked out that remake they did with Ian McKellen? From the look of it, I don't know if it captures the weird mix of intrigue and eccentricity that is so appealing about the original.
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Jun 23, 2016 06:24
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It was... different. McKellen killed it as Number 2, and the purpose of The Village, its inhabitants and the goals of Number 2 are very explicitly stated. But it's also a product of late-00's post-LOST television and has none of the 60's quirkyness that made the original so memorable, and it's hard to imagine (despite a cute reference in the first episode) that they could be taking place in the same universe. If you've finished the original and are looking for more you could do worse.
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Jun 23, 2016 07:44
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Roach Warehouse posted:I found it! I don't know if it's as funny as I remember, but it's made me smile while skimming it. Cheers! A bit of breakfast reading before going back to the revision grind -- thanks! Another recommendation for anyone who wants to go to Portmeirion -- it's pricey in summer, but actually in the off-season quite reasonable. They do Valentine rates  http://www.portmeirion-village.com/visit/ (You also get glimpses of it in the Doctor Who serial Masque of Mandragora and it shows up in a few of series one Danger Man episodes.) And you bet they embrace their most famous son  http://www.portmeiriononline.co.uk/static/prisoner Myself am disappointed they haven't got one of those big gently caress-off sized umbrellas; Mr Boods wants one of the phones, but as I've informed him, UFO taught me at age 10 in the mid-70s that everyone in Britain had chirpy trimphones, so where is ours  (If the Wife in Space guys haven't done The Prisoner, they should.) Ms Boods fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Jun 23, 2016 |
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Jun 23, 2016 09:02
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Alris posted:It was... different. McKellen killed it as Number 2, and the purpose of The Village, its inhabitants and the goals of Number 2 are very explicitly stated. But it's also a product of late-00's post-LOST television and has none of the 60's quirkyness that made the original so memorable, and it's hard to imagine (despite a cute reference in the first episode) that they could be taking place in the same universe. Another massive problem with the remake is that it has the beginnings of some really interesting plot threads (like Number Two's son) but the show just kind of drops all of them and then comes to a kind of screeching halt. I don't remember if they were planning on more episodes and got their budget cut or what but it's super obvious they didn't get to finish what they started. But yeah Ian McKellan totally nails it.
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Jun 23, 2016 10:27
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Escobarbarian posted:York, just curious: is there a reason you've made your own order, rather than using one of the others? I created the order last time I watched the series and basically researched the three other orders and reviewed the episodes. For the life of me I can't remember the "math" of why I did what I did. As Tsaedje showed I had two episodes that should have really been switched. Right now, the only thing different between my order and the AV club order is that Many Happy Returns and It’s Your Funeral are switched. I have no problem just flipping them and following the AV club order. There was a theory I read about how to order them in "blocks" wherein the episodes make sense together thematically but it is often considered a boring interpretation. I can't find that citation now. Honestly, I drafted the post almost a year ago and didn't post it because I didn't have the time to devote to the series, so I saved it as a Word doc. Ok, so new episodes discussed every Monday. Next Episode, June 27th - Dance of the Dead
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Jun 23, 2016 14:37
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Part of the reason there are so many possible orders is that there isn't really one consistent way to make everything fit. The production was a chaotic mess at points, with things like commissioning 3 different second episode scripts and then broadcasting a different episode altogether second.
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Jun 23, 2016 15:01
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Thank you for the excuse to watch this again, though I doubt I really need an excuse. This show is one of my favorite shows of all time. I love the look of it. The entire show feels cinematic in a way, much more than most shows produced at the same time. Also, if you have the chance to get a hold of the blu-ray release of the series, I would highly recommend it. The transfer is really good. Also, there is a spoiler in this episode for the ending, but that would be telling. PassTheRemote fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jun 24, 2016 |
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Jun 23, 2016 15:35
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wins.
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Episode 2 - Dance of the Dead I can't even think of a good was to briefly sum up this episode. Dead body, radio, cat, carnival, trial... Roland. Walter. Dutton. This episode, at its core, sets up a massive plot point. The outside world is now going to think Number 6 is dead and not search for him. What I really like about this episode, and placing this episode second, is that you get to see the scope of The Village's reach. While Number 6 thinks they are just watching him through the TV, we see they are basically omnipresent. It really breaks Number 6's hubris wherein he thinks his typical spy skills will help him here. Number 2:  Played by Mary Morris She is one of my favorite Number 2's. She doesn't seem to believe is bizarre torture methods and feels she can coerce the explanation out of him, make him realize how hopeless it is to resist.
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Jun 27, 2016 14:45
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This episode also sets up the plot point that the more intense and physically damaging methods are not to be used on The Prisoner, orders from higher up. The idea being that The Prisoner has an important future in The Village. I felt Number 2 in this ep is more concerned about showing him that he will never leave the Village, outside help is never coming. Is the part with the televisions a reference to 1984 and the telescreens there? To be honest, this is not an episode I always go back to when I rewatch this show, but it is a good episode, and definitely works better as episode 2 than a mid run episode as it is in the DVD release. Also, I loved the part where The Prisoner did not sleep in his home, I know it is because he wants to leave, but I was jokingly thinking because he could not sleep in his bed without moving the sleeping cat.
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Jun 27, 2016 15:31
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That cat has seen things.
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Jun 27, 2016 17:19
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precision posted:That cat has seen things. "Who is number one?" "Meow"
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Jun 27, 2016 21:18
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That cat looked exactly like my cat. Loved the shot with Number 2 on the beach.
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Jun 27, 2016 21:26
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Holy poo poo that episode was amazing, a giant step up from the first episode (which I really liked) and Number 2 was spectacular. I was a little confused by the very ending because of the framing - was I to take it that the machine self-repaired and began working again, and the machinery he'd pulled out had just been replaced or was it all still connected and he'd just done enough damage to give it temporary pause? There's such a pervading sense of dread through the whole episode, the Prisoner waking up to find the corpse on the beach, then using it as a prop; village inhabitants all clearly looking to turn each other in at the slightest sign of disobedience; the blank faces on the "carnival-goers" as they dully stride through the motions of celebration while (what I assume are) tape recordings of actual fun are played; Dutton's resignation to his death and ultimate fate; the farce of the trial; and of course the ending where the Prisoner realizes that he's got absolutely no idea what he's dealing with or how to get out of it. I love the way McGoohan strides around the village observing everything, testing things with comments or gestures that are designed not only to poke a stick at the established order but also to judge for himself how much of what he is seeing is genuine and how much is a show put on for his benefit. When Number 2 insists that Number 240 is an inappropriate partner of course the first thing he does is approach her, but he also makes a point of asking whether he's just doing exactly as Number 2 wanted him to do. He's a wonderfully anarchic element though I do wonder how long he can keep that up in the face of such overwhelming odds and the complete denial of anything that makes sense to him ("Your world is just a dream, and therefore not real" or words to that effect). Great, great, great episode.
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Jun 28, 2016 08:22
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Jerusalem posted:Holy poo poo that episode was amazing, a giant step up from the first episode (which I really liked) and Number 2 was spectacular. I was a little confused by the very ending because of the framing - was I to take it that the machine self-repaired and began working again, and the machinery he'd pulled out had just been replaced or was it all still connected and he'd just done enough damage to give it temporary pause? My reading of the scene was that he didn't actually do any damage, they just let him think he did. And then showed that he didn't. I think the core plot of this episode was just, "Let's just gently caress with Number Six for a while," and that fits in with it. I kind of wish Mary Morris would have had another episode as Number 2. She was fantastic.
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Jun 28, 2016 11:53
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That makes far more sense, yeah - everything in this episode is designed to show the Prisoner he has zero control over this situation, he's completely subject to their whims and their "rules" and nothing he does will change that. If the other episodes are as good as this, I'm going to kick myself yet again for never getting around to watching this show before now.
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Jun 28, 2016 12:28
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I know we're watching in a different order, but I feel like the beginning of The Chimes of Big Ben has a key quote: "He'll break. Eventually." "I don't want a man of fragments!"
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Jun 28, 2016 14:03
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Jerusalem posted:Holy poo poo that episode was amazing, a giant step up from the first episode (which I really liked) and Number 2 was spectacular. I was a little confused by the very ending because of the framing - was I to take it that the machine self-repaired and began working again, and the machinery he'd pulled out had just been replaced or was it all still connected and he'd just done enough damage to give it temporary pause? According to the internet, that machine is supposedly communications for Number One, or at least Number 6 (and the audience) are supposed to believe that is what it is. Jerusalem posted:The blank faces on the "carnival-goers" as they dully stride through the motions of celebration while (what I assume are) tape recordings of actual fun are played; This is one of those moments where I always question... intentional or accident? As I watched it I wasn't sure if they wanted to have that weird juxtaposition of laughter over somber villagers or that was just poor direction and ADR placement. It happens more than once in this episode, however, so I think it is intentional. This episode and Arrival (and 3 more to come) were directed by Don Chaffey, who is a pretty prolific director. I don't think he would have a contrast that startling without it being intentional. He also directed the original Pete's Dragon and Jason and the Argonauts which has nothing to do with that I am saying, I just thought that was neat.
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Jun 28, 2016 14:34
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I think it was definitely deliberate. Later on they have the same thing going on during the big dance, with everybody staidly going through the motions, and Number 240 gets snapped at when she pulls up momentarily and stops dancing. I love that the Prisoner isn't even bothering with that pretense, he's just striding backwards snapping questions at her and utterly refusing to take part in the charade (I was actually surprised he put on the tuxedo!). "Since the war? Before the war? WHICH WAR!?!" was a great line too.
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Jun 28, 2016 23:55
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I was able to make a day trip to Portmeirion, though it's a little tricky by rail. But totally worth it, it's gorgeous and I'm eager to rewatch the show.
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Jun 29, 2016 00:04
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Jerusalem posted:I think it was definitely deliberate. The show is so deliberate with these things it's hard to tell what's a mistake and what's an intentionally discontinuity to make things feel off. Consider the views of the surveillance we see; it's a convention on television or in movies that surveillance camera footage is often something that could not have been shot by a remote, out of the way camera. Sometimes it's for budget as they reuse footage and sometimes it's just lousy direction. But on The Prisoner I just don't know. You saw a bit of this in Arrival as well as the camera views of Number Six as he ran through the statue garden were not from the perspective of the statue eyes as the shots implied. Efficiency? Error? Or an intentional bit of subtle surrealism?
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Jun 29, 2016 02:03
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precision posted:As the series goes on it will become vastly less confusing, the question "Which side controls this place?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ato5NS9dW0A
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Jun 29, 2016 15:35
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