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...Really? We can't wait until we reach that episode, guys? When there are newbies watching and presumably following the OPs order? What're you going to discuss once we get there? Just quote these posts?
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Jun 29, 2016 16:29
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Gaz-L posted:...Really? We can't wait until we reach that episode, guys? When there are newbies watching and presumably following the OPs order? What're you going to discuss once we get there? Just quote these posts? I think some people accidentally watched The Chimes of Big Ben
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Jun 29, 2016 17:05
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See I'm familiar with the ep order in which Chimes is like the second episode.
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Jun 29, 2016 19:02
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Jerusalem posted:I was a little confused by the very ending because of the framing - was I to take it that the machine self-repaired and began working again, and the machinery he'd pulled out had just been replaced or was it all still connected and he'd just done enough damage to give it temporary pause? Jerusalem posted:I love the way McGoohan strides around the village observing everything, testing things with comments or gestures that are designed not only to poke a stick at the established order but also to judge for himself how much of what he is seeing is genuine and how much is a show put on for his benefit. When Number 2 insists that Number 240 is an inappropriate partner of course the first thing he does is approach her, but he also makes a point of asking whether he's just doing exactly as Number 2 wanted him to do. One thing about this episode that confused me was the trial. Obviously they can't actually let the inhabitants kill him since their orders are to keep him safe, so I was expecting the trial to end with him being found guilty and the punishment to be death for his observer, to try to teach him that his rebellion could harm others even if they want him alive. As it is, the episode ended with the village trying to find and kill him. What happens now? He's obviously not going to be hiding from everyone for the rest of the series.
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Jun 30, 2016 04:14
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Tiggum posted:As it is, the episode ended with the village trying to find and kill him. What happens now? He's obviously not going to be hiding from everyone for the rest of the series. The way I saw it is - provided the entire thing wasn't just yet another ruse they were all in on - that Number 2 shows them the corpse in the box with all his identification and says,"There you go, Number 6 is dead" and then the next day when the same guy is angrily stomping around the village again everybody just goes along with it because that's just the way poo poo rolls in the Village - if you're told Number 6 is dead then you believe it, and if you're then told Number 6 is alive and walking around you believe that too, both things are simultaneously true because the village says so, ala 1984.
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Jun 30, 2016 05:06
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It was time for a new avatar.Toplowtech posted:From The Chimes of Big Ben, don't watch if you don't want spoilers from a 60+ years old show. That would be telling. But still, everyone wait till Chimes of Big Ben, then you get Leo McKern as number 2. It is worth the wait.
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Jun 30, 2016 15:09
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wins.
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PassTheRemote posted:But still, everyone wait till Chimes of Big Ben, then you get Leo McKern as number 2. It is worth the wait. Leo McKern definitely had an affair with John Rhys Davies's mother.
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Jun 30, 2016 21:15
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I've seen The Prisoner a good few times, but on every rewatch so far I've been a bit lazy and just followed the standard broadcast order on the DVD release. I'm definitely on board to watch the show again with a more logical episode order - not that the broadcast order or any other ordering makes the series decidedly worse or more confusing, but it will be fun to see what different patterns emerge when the episodes aren't just haphazardly thrown after one another. Having said that, I never really warmed up to Dance of the Dead before, and that might be partly because the broadcast order shunts it somewhere in the middle of the series. Mary Morris is a top-notch Number Two and the masquerade stuff is very visually interesting, but it feels like the basic plot of the episode is used a fair number of times throughout the show, and viewed after half a dozen other episodes this one almost feels like a step backwards in some ways. Seen right after Arrival, however, it's really effective: Number Six is new at the Village, and this is an early show of force and a demonstration of the power the Village and Number Two have over the rest of the citizens. By episode 8 this is old news, but in episode 2 it's really harrowing. So yes, watching it like this really improved my enjoyment of this episode. On the other hand, if we had followed the broadcast order, I would have had my daily dosage of Leo McKern by now. Win some, lose some, I guess.
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Jul 1, 2016 08:58
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I'm not sure how important the order really is, apart from obviously Arrival being first and Once Upon A Time being second-last followed by Fall Out, etc. It's a show where things not entirely making sense is part of the point. Agreed on Morris, she's definitely one of the more memorable No. 2's.
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Jul 1, 2016 17:39
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I think there's definitely "earlier" episodes where the theme is more the Prisoner trying to figure out what's going on in the Village and actively plotting escape, and "later" episodes where he seems a bit more resigned and understands that the most he can do is defy them and gently caress with their plans. There's definitely no particularly coherent sequence of events.
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Jul 1, 2016 18:09
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I think the real switch between "earlier" and later episodes happens in Hammer Into Anvil. Wherever you place it.
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Jul 1, 2016 19:29
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Dance of the Dead feels like a much better second episode than Chimes of Big Ben. As Forktoss mentions, when it's watched according to broadcast/dvd release order, the basic premise has been done before. When watched as a second episode, it gives a bit more information about how the Village is set up (observers), and does a good job of showing how powerful they are, along with providing the whole "we're not going to torture Number 6" line.
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Jul 1, 2016 20:19
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This video for the song "Arrival" by the band Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling might look a bit familiar (if the names of the song and band themselves didn't give away that they're huge Prisoner fans). http://youtu.be/GbUhmwSObto
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Jul 1, 2016 20:23
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Next up is Free For All right?
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Jul 3, 2016 19:59
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The Vosgian Beast posted:Next up is Free For All right? That's what the episode list in the first post says.
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Jul 3, 2016 21:20
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The Vosgian Beast posted:Next up is Free For All right?
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Jul 4, 2016 10:48
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The Vosgian Beast posted:Next up is Free For All right? Yes, and I think it works as the 3rd episode. Number 6 is too settled in for this to be played as the 2nd episode yet helps us take a step closer to Chimes Of Big Ben. This week's Number 2  played by Eric Portman. However, I think that George Benson steals the show as the 'Labour Exchange Manager'/Interrogator who is actually a different Labour Exchange Manager than we saw in The Arrival. This is the first episode (in our order) that Patrick McGoohan directed and I think he really "finds" Number 6 in this one... it is a much more subtle performance instead of the constant flip from angry to slick. I always find this episode a little heavy handed in its metaphors about democracy, but for 1967 this was probably some really heady poo poo. "She will not go away and she doesn't even speak English!"  Number 6's sexism and xenophobia all in one quote. It should be stated that McGoohan was very Catholic and refused to have onscreen romantic relationships with women that were not his wife. He even turned down the role of Jame Bond because, "I thought there was too much emphasis on sex and violence." So while he seems to hate women in this show, it is really how they were able to come up with a reason why he doesn't have a different lover every week. This episode is also the only time in the series, other than very briefly in the 1st episode, that Number 6 wears his number. I also really love how ominous the "Truth Test" scene builds. "Don't damage the tissue" and "1st stage only" are so creepy when being served with tea. That then leads to one of the most iconic images in The Prisoner.  We also get our first site of the "rover worshipers" and I actually can't remember if they ever come back. York_M_Chan fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jul 5, 2016 |
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Jul 5, 2016 15:36
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The Prisoner's Xenophobia could be explained as he thinks he might be in an enemy camp (At this point there is little evidence to him that this is not the case). The Prisoner while he resigned form his post, is someone fiercely loyal to his side (The Cold War tensions are there, do not forget that). This also I think gives the excuse as to why The Prisoner does not have a different lover each episode (there is another reason in a future episode). There is also the point that he is trying to escape, and having an attachment to the village would make that complicated. As far as sexism, I don't really see it. As far as hating women, that's a stretch. He is distrustful of everyone in The Village, remember after Dance of the Dead, he is trying to determine who are the prisoners and who are the wardens. It's still early as he is still cagey. The Prisoner evens refuses to say he is Number Six when he receives a call saying that that is the number of the telephone.
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Jul 5, 2016 17:38
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PassTheRemote posted:The Prisoner's Xenophobia could be explained as he thinks he might be in an enemy camp (At this point there is little evidence to him that this is not the case). The Prisoner while he resigned form his post, is someone fiercely loyal to his side (The Cold War tensions are there, do not forget that). This also I think gives the excuse as to why The Prisoner does not have a different lover each episode (there is another reason in a future episode). There is also the point that he is trying to escape, and having an attachment to the village would make that complicated. Sorry, I was more just making a joke than actually presenting a case that he is a woman hater.
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Jul 5, 2016 18:17
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Number Six actually does show hints of that particularly British 60s sexism that is dialed up to 11 in James Bond, though. Like he doesn't hate women but he definitely treats them very different to how he treats men. It is arguable that The Village takes advantage of this fact multiple times.
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Jul 5, 2016 18:21
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York_M_Chan posted:Sorry, I was more just making a joke than actually presenting a case that he is a woman hater. Sorry, as a goon, I don't understand jokes without the following attached at the end 
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Jul 5, 2016 18:27
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Edit: Oops, meant to edit and hit quote.
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Jul 5, 2016 18:39
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Jul 5, 2016 20:17
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PassTheRemote posted:There is also the point that he is trying to escape, and having an attachment to the village would make that complicated.
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Jul 6, 2016 08:24
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I really enjoyed No. 2's big speech about the village having become too complacent about "democracy" and giving them a rousing speech about progress.... while the assistant holds up cue cards telling them exactly how to react (enthusiastically!) to this proclamation. I love that so often their schemes are so nakedly transparent - they know that the Prisoner will distrust everything they do so they openly undermine their own so-called plots to trick him right in front of his face... all while playing some deeper game to trick him! McGoohan's acting is on point here with the mixture of genuine brainwashing, struggles to reassert his identity AND also to try and walk the fine line between both to try and turn the scheme back on the village (of course the whole thing is a blatant fraud in the first place, he can't win a fake game playing by its fake rules) - there are some great moments in here where you see the facade crack a little, like when he's keenly playing the politician and giving backhanded compliment's No 2's way ("He works so hard... he should have spare time!") and then when No 2 pushes him as to what HE will do in his spare time if he wins the election, you see him kind of falter as he tries to work out what the perfect response to play all sides would be. Count me in as another who thought the guys sitting around Rover were monitoring/watching it as opposed to worshiping it. I loved how little attention was drawn to that, just another weird facet of what is going on beneath the surface at the Village not given any more time or emphasis than is necessary. It's also refreshing to see the Prisoner getting into fights with henchmen who almost always overpower him because... hey, they're big dudes, it's their job to incapacitate troublemakers, and there are more of them than him!
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Jul 6, 2016 12:04
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The brainwashing in this episode was quite interesting. Clearly it is effective to some degree, which makes one wonder why they can't use it to get whatever information they want from him. Also noteworthy, the fact that they openly told him that they won't do any lasting damage to him, which could make him a little bit bolder in his resistance.skasion posted:By the end of this episode, and still more so by the next, it becomes pretty clear though never said outright that there is no distinction between prisoner and guard. skasion posted:Are those bad dudes worshiping Rover? I always thought it as them minding it, or keeping it under control till it's needed. Jerusalem posted:I love that so often their schemes are so nakedly transparent - they know that the Prisoner will distrust everything they do so they openly undermine their own so-called plots to trick him right in front of his face... all while playing some deeper game to trick him!
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Jul 6, 2016 16:37
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I look at the Rover like the Kraken. He is released when needed but not really under anyone's "control" per-say. The theory on this page: http://prisoner.gigacorp.net/theories.html (careful, spoilers) - seems to suggest that Rover may actually have been communicating or, if they are guarding him, they are a higher order of guards. Although, we often seen Rover just performing sentry duty around The Village, so I don't know if I believe that it needs to be guarded. I rather like the idea that is it communicating with them, maybe not at a spiritual level but just trying to understand what a Rover is... they use its power but don't understand it.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:28
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It occurred to me while watching the latest episode that what the Prisoner experiences is kind of like being railroaded in a video game. There are "but thou must" situations where what he says doesn't actually matter, his attempts to break out of the trajectory plotted for him is often accounted for and minimized, and Rover might as well be the leeches in Half-Life 2 or the big fish that eats you in half of all 3D platformers. Obviously they didn't have this in mind while making the show, but it's somewhat interesting.
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Jul 7, 2016 00:54
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Episode 4: Checkmate Number 2:  Played by Peter Wyngarde who was also Klytus in Flash Gordon  There is something so aloof about this Number 2, he seems to let everyone else do the monitoring, but I think that plays into the chess player using human's to make the moves. He seems put out by Number 6's shenanigans. Also, his eyelashes creep me out. It really seems like 56 and 23 are running the show in this one. One thing I noticed, and I may have mentioned something similar in episode 2, is that there are blatant cameras and hidden cameras which is a really interesting concept. They want them think they are being slightly monitored so they won't believe they are completely monitored. Although, the omnipotent camera seems to come and go as the plot mandates. Around minute 30, he is getting ready for bed and his house looks completely different. Its the same set, I don't know why is seems to different, perhaps because the sun had set so it is a little darker, colder. I think it is also camera angles that are typically used, its just off-putting and I don'g know if it is intentional. His door starts to open before she starts to leave - it seems intentional but I don't know what it could mean. "Everybody wants to help me!" I want Number 2's sunglasses.  The one thing about watching the show in this order, and I will try not to spoil anything, is that it will seem like every episode will be about Number 6 trying to escape. I promise it is not, but it makes sense that in the beginning that is all he will want to do.
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Jul 11, 2016 16:07
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It's interesting how the first few produced episodes always featured escapes. I'm wondering if that is something Markstein really wanted, because later ones kind of drop that. The Chess motif is something in the early produced episodes also have in common. There's the quote in Arrival "We're all pawns my dear", the black and white number ribbons in Free for All (No. 2 ribbons being white, No. 6 ribbons being black), and it will come up later (but that would be telling). I wonder if it is a subset of the black and white motif seen throughout the series. But who cares, because Leo McKern is coming next week. He is looking forward to that. Well, that's a half truth. One of his eyes is looking forward to that, the other eye is off looking at who knows what.
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Jul 11, 2016 17:02
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I found an interview with McGoohan that is really interesting. Nevermind, don't watch it if you haven't seen the series! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfyhDD140Xw York_M_Chan fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jul 11, 2016 |
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Jul 11, 2016 20:04
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I only watched the first ep so far, but I got the sense that this show really set the tone and feel for a lot of future TV series. In particular, Wayward Pines to bear a striking similarity.
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Jul 11, 2016 21:12
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This episode feels a lot more like a standard spy show to me. The first three episodes the Village was supernaturally effective. This time it feels like a more human run and maintained organization. The show is still sharp, of course, with multiple layers to everything; it's just more mundane in the setting. Also, I feel bad for the extras who have to sit on the rotating chairs in the monitoring room for hours at a time. 
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Jul 12, 2016 03:37
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Random Stranger posted:This episode feels a lot more like a standard spy show to me. The first three episodes the Village was supernaturally effective. This time it feels like a more human run and maintained organization. Yeah, this Number 2 in particular seemed somewhat less in-control and on-the-ball than the previous ones. He still won in the end, but there were times where it didn't feel like he was running a tight shop.
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Jul 12, 2016 05:35
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That was interesting, I also felt like Number 2 was a surprisingly passive presence in this episode but by the end he really came into his own as the master manipulator - his smugness is helped of course by the fact that he knows he has Rover waiting in the wings should everything go wrong (as it almost did). It was neat to see how even with his hands-off approach and letting the Prisoner essentially run free, the nature of the village and its inhabitants mean that he really is constantly surrounded and contained - I felt so bad for Rook when he realized he'd screwed everything up. The Doctor who features so heavily in the first half of the episode was absolutely terrifying, she was just so detached and cold, even if her big plot with the brainwashed love interest ended up going nowhere. Random Stranger posted:This episode feels a lot more like a standard spy show to me. The first three episodes the Village was supernaturally effective. This time it feels like a more human run and maintained organization. That said, I really loved how the episode opens with Rover just roaring down the road on some unfathomable task and the way everybody just immediately stops when they hear it, move aside and hold position unmoving until its gone. The fear it generates feels very real, and their clockwork unison in stopping and moving aside for it was very unsettling.
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Jul 12, 2016 08:42
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Jerusalem posted:That said, I really loved how the episode opens with Rover just roaring down the road on some unfathomable task and the way everybody just immediately stops when they hear it, move aside and hold position unmoving until its gone. The fear it generates feels very real, and their clockwork unison in stopping and moving aside for it was very unsettling.
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Jul 12, 2016 09:09
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York_M_Chan posted:Number 2:  There's definitely a shift in emphasis as the show progresses where 6 becomes less obsessed with escaping his prison than loving with it and the 2 of the day. He's not resigned to being trapped by any means, but since his attempts to break out have all been foiled it's almost as if he intends to crack the system from inside to give himself better odds in the future. 'It's Your Funeral' and (especially) 'Hammer Into Anvil' are the best examples of 6 striking back at his jailers - well, those and the last two episodes, of course.
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Jul 12, 2016 14:42
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Toplowtech posted:The balloon they ended up using instead of the originally planned robot cart is so effectively scary (and cheap and such a great practical effect). The part were it covers your body totally and suffocate you, rendering your resistance futile is a perfect physical representation of the village. I love the sound design too. It's so distinctive and unsettling.
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Jul 12, 2016 16:40
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Payndz posted:And his most famous role, My guess is that the shift is emblematic of the shift from George Markstein to Patrick McGoohan in terms of creative pull over the series. Markstein really wanted to play up the whole "No. 6 is John Drake" angle, as both Arrival and Dance of the Dead have people who No. 6 knew from his past. He also seemed to be the one wanting escape attempts from No. 6, as the early eps have him either formulating or attempting escape plans. Also, in the early eps No. 6 is trying to identify who are the prisoners and who are the wardens, a concept that kind of eroded as the series went on longer. As Patrick McGoohan fought over the creative direction of the show and got more say, it did shift to No. 6 subverting the Village and less on escape.
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Jul 12, 2016 17:01
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The Vosgian Beast posted:I love the sound design too. It's so distinctive and unsettling. I swear I can almost hear the Godzilla roar in Rover.
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Jul 12, 2016 18:21
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