|
Who else immediately clicked on the script for "Fall Out" and read the ending to see if there were answers? 
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2016 04:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 09:09 |
|
|
I've been waiting for Hammer into Anvil since the beginning, as it quite seriously may be my favourite episode of any TV show ever. Of course it wouldn't have been anywhere near as great without all the lead up of all the previous episodes. After seeing No. 6 constantly being messed with in some really amazing ways, to see him break a man down, strike by strike, was just perfect. Both MacGoohan and Cargill play their parts perfectly. I love many of the No. 2's, but I think he's my favourite just to watch him start to spiral and become increasingly paranoid. I also love how it shows that No. 2 doesn't really understand why he is there either, as he actually can believe that No. 6 is really there to test him. It's all just a wonderful mindfuck. I've probably watched this episode 100 times at least, it will never get old to me. MacGoohan's facial expressions are perfect in this, as he always has this knowing look that conveys he knows No. 2 will fall for this trick just as easily as he did every one previous. I'd also say it has the best line in the series, if it wasn't for one moment in The Girl Who Was Death, which takes the top spot. There will be more on that in 3 weeks I guess.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2016 08:12
|
|
|
Astroman posted:Who else immediately clicked on the script for "Fall Out" and read the ending to see if there were answers? No, since I expected that the script would be sixty pages of: INT SOMEPLACE SOME WEIRD poo poo HAPPENS.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2016 14:02
|
|
|
Random Stranger posted:No, since I expected that the script would be sixty pages of: It was surprisingly exact to what we saw on the tv. No additional explanations, just everything as it was filmed. I'm wondering though if it wasn't a later draft of an earlier script, mainly because I'd seemed to remember hearing that the whole resurrection thing with Leo McKern where he gets a shave and a haircut was a last minute cover because it had turned out the actor had shaved his beard and cut his hair and they had to explain it. But all that was in the script, so I bet there were earlier versions.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2016 04:59
|
|
|
Astroman posted:It was surprisingly exact to what we saw on the tv. No additional explanations, just everything as it was filmed. McGoohan wrote that script very close to production. He has stated that had no idea how to end the show. The reason it's so close to the episode as we saw it was that Markstein had already left the show as script editor and there was no time to modify things from the script. Fall Out sounded like a nightmare to write and shoot, given that it was down to the wire getting that done before it aired.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2016 13:06
|
|
wins.
|
I think people are missing the most important plot point in this episode: The Village has access to a beam that can shoot pigeons out of the sky without killing them
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2016 14:07
|
|
|
The Vosgian Beast posted:I think people are missing the most important plot point in this episode: The Village has access to a beam that can shoot pigeons out of the sky without killing them The fact that they didn't kill the pigeon is how you know they're evil.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2016 14:15
|
|
|
There is something on the wikipedia page about an alternate episode order that I can't really find sourced anywhere else (just a lot of other sites quoting the same block of text). The lack of any sources annoy me, but it is a kind of interesting way to look at it.quote:A new sequence has been established by analyst Joanna Southcott in an unpublished article. This was achieved by grouping the 17 episodes into the completed Series One (13 episodes) and the curtailed Series Two (only four episodes), then establishing the first and last episodes in each series and subsequently working from these ends, filling-in the two sequences using existing and new research. This work has given a suggested sequence for Series One: "Arrival", "Free For All", "Dance of the Dead", "Checkmate", "The Chimes of Big Ben", "The General", "A, B & C", "The Schizoid Man", "It's Your Funeral", "Hammer Into Anvil", "Living In Harmony", "A Change of Mind" and finally "Many Happy Returns". Southcott says: "The general idea seems to have been that Series One would start with The Prisoner arriving in The Village, and end with him escaping: he gets back to London and tells his former superiors what has been going on, but since they are apparently the ones that sent him to The Village in the first place, it is hardly surprising that they send him back. And this opens the way for Series Two to begin with The Prisoner back in The Village." The Second Series is sequenced by Southcott as: "Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling", "The Girl Who Was Death", "Once Upon A Time" and finally "Fall Out". Southcott comments: "Whatever meaning we choose, as individuals, to place upon the series, our self-appointed task is made more difficult if we watch the episodes in the wrong sequence. But perhaps that was all part of the idea..." Which would be this order: Season 1 "Arrival" "Free For All" "Dance of the Dead" "Checkmate" "The Chimes of Big Ben" "The General" "A, B & C" "The Schizoid Man" "It's Your Funeral" "Hammer Into Anvil" "Living In Harmony" "A Change of Mind" "Many Happy Returns". Season 2 "Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling" "The Girl Who Was Death" "Once Upon A Time" "Fall Out" It would be a strange thing to just make up and I guess by citing an unpublished article you avoid having to actually have any sources.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2016 18:39
|
|
|
Learning that 'Once Upon A Time' was filmed quite early on - it was the 6th (ha!) episode shot - and then held back to become the penultimate story (explaining Leo McKern's shave and haircut in 'Fall Out') makes me wonder whether McGoohan had at least some idea of how 'Fall Out' was going to go even that early, or if it was sheer good luck that he realised he could do a bit of reshooting at the end to use it as a lead-in. Unlike US shows, ITC generally finished making the entire series (or nearly so) before the first episode was even broadcast so that they could sell the whole thing to American networks as a complete package, so McGoohan would have had much more leeway with the broadcast order.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2016 21:47
|
|
|
Random Stranger posted:I think it helps that this Number 2 was already a bit paranoid and brittle to begin with. Number 6 spotted his weaknesses and knew the buttons to push. A more calculating Number 2 would be able to step back and go, "Maybe he's just trying to play me. Let's see if I can use that." This Number 2 escalates the situation until he can't pull out. I think they even make a point at the end of the episode that if Number 2 had just behaved as a loyal citizen then absolutely nothing would have happened even if Number 6 was a plant. The whole situation top to bottom was built on Number 2 being a brittle, weak man. York_M_Chan posted:You can't FIRE the butler! Random Stranger posted:The fact that they didn't kill the pigeon is how you know they're evil.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2016 03:48
|
|
|
MrBling posted:There is something on the wikipedia page about an alternate episode order that I can't really find sourced anywhere else (just a lot of other sites quoting the same block of text). The lack of any sources annoy me, but it is a kind of interesting way to look at it. This is neat and all of her, but if it's not what McGoohan intended and there was no actual second season planned it's an exercise in silliness. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 02:47
|
|
|
This episode also shows something interesting, The Village masters are running out of qualified people to take the role of No. 2. This one is basically a TV version of Toht. Looking at his work on No. 73, he has no way to pull back, he keeps pushing someone who had a suicide attempt. This is why the masters called. He bungled the No. 73 thing and they knew he was not up to the task of taking on The Prisoner. No. 2 is however, arrogant and insecure, so he makes the mistake of showing himself as super awesome. I also love using the opening to the L'Arlésienne suite as a musical sting as well. As far as that article, I've heard that, however, I've also heard that Degree Absolute would have been a cliffhanger for the end of the season.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 19:42
|
|
|
Episode 13 - Living In Harmony This episode isn't nearly as bad as I remember it, so you were right PassTheRemote. I think when you first watch the show this episode doesn't serve the main plot and so it seems unnecessary, now it is just fun to watch. Pretty sure McGoohan has stated that he just wanted to make a western. This is also, perhaps, the darkest episode of The Prisoner so that makes it rather off putting. Pretty high body count for a Prisoner episode. It is pretty brilliant to not use the Prisoner opening to keep people in the dark as to what the hell is going on. I also like that most of the characters don't have names, remaining true to The Village. Except for Kathy, although in the context that prostitutes/strippers don't use their real names the name Katherine Johnson could be a fake name. Also the random thug introduces himself as Zeke. Number 6 needing 2 sips to drink a shot is about the lamest thing he has ever done. Is McGoohan doing an American accent? I can't tell. David Bauer (Number 2) would have made a great Penguin in a Nolan-style Batman movie. Those bullet scrapes when The Kid shoots at Number 6 are some drat good practical effects. Apparently, The Kid actually draws faster in the duel. I love the shot where Number 6 gets shot by the Judge, it is so uncomfortable and jarring. I just wanted Number 6 to walk into Number 2's office and say, "What the gently caress was the point of that?!" From IMDB quote:During the first American broadcast of the series, "Living in Harmony" was not included. CBS stated that this was because of the episode's reference to hallucinogenic drug use, yet several authors disputed this argument, since mind-altering drugs were also present in other episodes (most notably The Prisoner: A. B. and C. (1967)), yet these were not censored. Instead, they argue that the network feared Number Six' refusal to carry arms could be interpreted as an anti-war statement. As the plot was recognizably American, being a Western, they argue, the network banned the episode in fear that it carried with it a message against US presence in Southeast Asia, (the Vietnam War being at its height). Official spokesmen from CBS as well as ITC have since confirmed that the episode's implied war commentary was why it wasn't shown during its original US run. The episode was directed by David Tomblin, who was the 2nd Unit Director for Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi Would anyone be interested in doing this again with a different series? Danger Man seems a bit too on the nose. But I was thinking: The Saint Colonel March of Scotland Yard Kolchak: The Night Stalker The Avengers Any suggestions?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 15:37
|
|
|
Living in Harmony is a great episode that manages to use the screwball premise to make you think about what the show is actually about to begin with. It's basically my touchstone for random alternate universe episodes in any show. It's miles ahead of Star Trek's "suddenly, we decided to film on the left over western sets" episode.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 16:40
|
|
|
At this point, Markstein had left the series (Many Happy Returns was the last produced episode he was script editor for). You can tell they were scrambling for scripts. The reason for this is not really well understood. My guess is the exercise is not to know why The Prisoner resigned, but to condition him to be a pawn of The Judge. That is why I think The Prisoner is so important to the Village. Break him and he is the best weapon they would ever have. Also, when The Prisoner wakes up, it's like he woke up in the fake Rock Ridge from Blazing saddles. Why is Alexis Kennar's credit in a box?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 17:01
|
|
|
PassTheRemote posted:Why is Alexis Kennar's credit in a box? That usually denotes a Special Gust Star but it doesn't seem like he was a particularly big star at that point. Randomly, he costars, wrote, and directed Kings and Desperate Men that also stared McGoohan in 1981.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 17:24
|
|
|
Until the end, I was hoping that the Kid would somehow turn out to be a stand-in for Rover.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2016 00:09
|
|
|
Patrick McGoohan's "Unforgiven". An interesting episode because he breaks. He takes up the gun. And then it doesn't really matter. Everyone but him goes crazy and people die. The village is quite adept at breaking it's own.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2016 00:20
|
|
|
PassTheRemote posted:At this point, Markstein had left the series (Many Happy Returns was the last produced episode he was script editor for). You can tell they were scrambling for scripts. Probably because of Kennar's importance in Fall Out. I think you're on the nose about your speculation. It's pretty much my interpretation of Fall Out.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2016 00:54
|
|
|
 Oh my god, they've thrown Ron Howard in the Village! Why couldn't they have taken Clint instead?! The first of the oddball three, the episodes where they suddenly went, "We have to make how many new episodes?" UK shows trying to do westerns always came out a bit rough and this isn't an exception. I appreciate the concept, but the episode feels so off. The bit when Number 6 wakes up from the hallucination is pretty cool, though. Putting the "Living in Harmony" title over Number 6 getting beaten up by a bunch of guys was a nice bit of irony. Somebody really liked POV shots for this episode. There was so many of them... Also, where was the "western town" on the maps at the Village information kiosks? York_M_Chan posted:Would anyone be interested in doing this again with a different series? I was thinking a watch along like this is fun for some keystone series that aren't watched very often. Something critically acclaimed and influential, but doesn't have the giant army of fanatics. A possible show along those lines for me would be something like Homicide: Life on the Street or one of those smaller HBO shows along the lines of Rome.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2016 01:28
|
|
|
I feel like this is two episodes - one an interesting if unspectacular standard Western aided by McGoohan as the lead, and then the final few minutes where it very firmly (and happily) returns to The Prisoner style weirdness. Everything from the Prisoner being "shot" by the Judge up to Kathy running out of Number 2's HQ and Number 8 looking guilty is EXCELLENT, and then the last few minutes kinda offset that. They're still good in their own way, but I just didn't buy 8's sudden shift back into The Kid mode (was he pumped full of hallucinogenic drugs too? I thought he, 2 and Kathy were just observing the Prisoner and talking to him through microphones) even if it allows for that wonderfully dark ending of Number 2 standing in a mess of his own construction while the Prisoner himself is left relatively unscathed. I don't begrudge them experimentation at all (hell, the show is experimentation personified) but this did feel like it was mostly an excuse to throw in some unused script from another tv series and give McGoohan the chance to make a Western on ITV's dime, and the truly interesting stuff at the end is mostly there to justify the fact it was part of the series. York_M_Chan posted:Would anyone be interested in doing this again with a different series? I'm probably the only one but I would actually enjoy looking back at the first 2-3 seasons of Mission: Impossible, everything up to Martin Landau leaving was pretty good from memory. After that they shifted focus more to organized crime and away from the blatant Cold War/Europe espionage stuff and as much as I like Leonard Nimoy he didn't have Landau's charm. Edit: Failing that - The Sweeney! Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Sep 13, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2016 05:10
|
|
|
The Man from U.N.C.L.E could also be interesting.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2016 05:41
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:I don't begrudge them experimentation at all (hell, the show is experimentation personified) but this did feel like it was mostly an excuse to throw in some unused script from another tv series and give McGoohan the chance to make a Western on ITV's dime, and the truly interesting stuff at the end is mostly there to justify the fact it was part of the series. Actually, the episode was an excuse to use an existing backlot set and not shoot on location. For those interested, here's a short video about shooting this episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZomALRxyKk0
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2016 12:07
|
|
|
MrBling posted:The Man from U.N.C.L.E could also be interesting. I've seen some of those. The later episodes were silly, but the first season or so was excellent. The movie last year was very underrated as well. Captured the best of the show IMO and was a great 60s spy caper.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2016 13:24
|
|
|
Early Mission: Impossible could be worth doing, definitely. The first two or three seasons were definitely the high point, as they had almost all of the best episodes, as well as being when the show was most willing to experiment. Once they found their formula, they stuck to it pretty firmly, all the more so once new producers (creator Bruce Geller ended up being fired from his own show) limited stories to being set in the US for budget reasons and fighting the Mob for "don't offend the Russians" reasons. The first season also had Dan Briggs rather than Jim Phelps, Briggs being a much harder-edged leader, and the show adapting to his eventual phasing out as actor Steven Hill had a massive falling-out with the producers before finally being fired and replaced by Peter Graves. Having seen Space: 1999 first, it was weird for me to watch M:I years later and find out that Barbara Bain could actually act rather than just blankly deliver lines like a shop window dummy with a tape recorder inside.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2016 22:54
|
|
|
Astroman posted:I've seen some of those. The later episodes were silly, but the first season or so was excellent. The movie was a lovely unexpected treat, it completely flew under my radar and I ended up watching it on a flight and really enjoying it. Was nice to see Henry Cavill actually get to demonstrate some charm after seeing him so poorly under-utilized as Superman.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2016 23:24
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:The movie was a lovely unexpected treat, it completely flew under my radar and I ended up watching it on a flight and really enjoying it. Was nice to see Henry Cavill actually get to demonstrate some charm after seeing him so poorly under-utilized as Superman. The best thing about it was that they played it straight--there was lightness and comedy as you'd expect from the show, but it wasn't a parody and was true to the source material unironically. Unlike so many 60s-70s tv show reboot movies, Dark Shadows being the most egregious example. It's a shame it didn't perform well enough for a sequel.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2016 05:21
|
|
|
Payndz posted:Early Mission: Impossible could be worth doing, definitely. The first two or three seasons were definitely the high point, as they had almost all of the best episodes, as well as being when the show was most willing to experiment. Once they found their formula, they stuck to it pretty firmly, all the more so once new producers (creator Bruce Geller ended up being fired from his own show) limited stories to being set in the US for budget reasons and fighting the Mob for "don't offend the Russians" reasons.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2016 10:00
|
|
|
My favourite thing about Living in Harmony is how the village apparently either has a replica western town on standby or built one specifically to set a drugged up Number Six loose in. Do they have other sets around? Is this a secondary Western village to compliment the Port theme of the main one, and they just cleared it out for the day? Who knows.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2016 10:34
|
|
|
Roach Warehouse posted:My favourite thing about Living in Harmony is how the village apparently either has a replica western town on standby or built one specifically to set a drugged up Number Six loose in. It's like Jurassic Park. We spare no expense... to break Number 6.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2016 14:44
|
|
|
York_M_Chan posted:It's like Jurassic Park. We spare no expense... to break Number 6. Those retired spies have to earn their work credits somehow. Might as well have them build sets.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2016 14:59
|
|
|
Random Stranger posted:Those retired spies have to earn their work credits somehow. Might as well have them build sets. If there's one thing No. 6's escape attempts have taught us, it's that spies are really good at DIY projects
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2016 15:27
|
|
|
Random Stranger posted:drat that kosho scenes goes on way too long. I feel that way every time I watch this episode and I wind up forgetting just how long it is before I watch it again. I have to wonder how much use that kosho gym gets anyway, or is it the Village's equivalent of that racquetball court that everyplace seems to build and no one ever uses. I remember reading the GURPS The Prisoner book some time ago. A friend had it and pretty much every other GURPS book written. During marathon gaming sessions on the weekend we'd play stuff like Axis & Allies, Diplomacy, Illuminati and such. In between my turns I'd read through his books. What struck me about their explanation about Kosho was that it was another method of control. That is, as a sport it doesn't exist anywhere else, but for some reason there are rules and specialized equipment, and it does allow an outlet for aggression and settling grudges and such. However, if you invest time and effort to actually get any good at it, then it just proves you're assimilating to the Village's customs and culture, and is that much closer to being broken. By hook, or by crook.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 05:20
|
|
|
The Vosgian Beast posted:If there's one thing No. 6's escape attempts have taught us, it's that spies are really good at DIY projects Number 2: I set Number 6 to the task of building a 1:1 scale replica of the Empire State building with popsicle sticks, it will drive him mad  Number 8: ....why does the Empire State Building look like a giant boat? Number 2: Shhh, let's see where this goes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 05:22
|
|
|
Number 6 waking up one morning to find a 1:1 scale replica of the Empire State Building has appeared in the middle of the Village, and nobody else remarking on it in any way, is exactly the kind of thing that should be happening.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 11:18
|
|
|
Lars Blitzer posted:I remember reading the GURPS The Prisoner book some time ago. A friend had it and pretty much every other GURPS book written. During marathon gaming sessions on the weekend we'd play stuff like Axis & Allies, Diplomacy, Illuminati and such. In between my turns I'd read through his books. What struck me about their explanation about Kosho was that it was another method of control. That is, as a sport it doesn't exist anywhere else, but for some reason there are rules and specialized equipment, and it does allow an outlet for aggression and settling grudges and such. However, if you invest time and effort to actually get any good at it, then it just proves you're assimilating to the Village's customs and culture, and is that much closer to being broken. Well that's something I'm going to try to find now
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2016 01:37
|
|
|
Don’t Forsake Me, Oh My Darling Number 2... played by Clifford Evans  Eyebrow game on point! Tonight the part of Number 6 will be played by Nigel Stock. Stock does not move with the urgency that McGoohan does, that is for sure. quote:Patrick McGoohan was not available for this episode since he was finishing up his role on the movie Ice Station Zebra. Do not Forsake Me, Oh My Darling is a song from High Noon - which seems to match Living In Harmony better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4a_1UhwgFU The lyrics don't seem to make sense with the episode either. This may be my least favorite Prisoner episode: Primarily, no McGoohan! Number Six names himself, even though it is still a code-name ZM73 There is a love interest and he almost married, apparently? You would think he would have looked for her the other times he made it to London. How did he know to only use every other letter in Seltzman's name? Do they also use the amnesia machine on 6, erasing his memory of The Village? 6 knew Seltzman somehow? Did they ever talk about that? We learn a lot about 6's backstory but I guess I didn't really want to learn that. I randomly found The Official Prisoner Companion on Google books: https://books.google.com/books?id=lMkck_nRWR4C York_M_Chan fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Sep 19, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2016 15:46
|
|
|
I will agree, this episode is probably my least favorite episode. My only guess about the pack of film slides is that he worked with Seltzman on how to find him if he needs to relocate him or something. The whole plot with The Prisoner's government trying to get Seltzma, only for the Village to get him is kind of pointless, and it makes it seem like the Village is not part of the West. In the end, this series works better with ambiguity. This episode was too specific about many things.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2016 17:32
|
|
|
Also I thought people back home thought Number 6 was dead, which was why nobody is looking that hard for him? Someone like that vanishing off the face of the earth would be a big deal, which makes it weird that the people back home didn't seem that curious about where he was.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2016 01:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 09:09 |
|
|
MrBling posted:The Man from U.N.C.L.E could also be interesting. This would be my pick. The early episodes are fantastic, and it's amazing how quickly it becomes obvious that McCallum needed to be co-lead. It also gets pretty bonkers very early on. One episode in season 1 has Solo and Kuryakin trying to stop a scientist from reviving Hitler.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2016 02:21
|
|