Scandinavia: I know I shit on Denmark a lot, but I think they deserve it

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Scandinavia: I know I shit on Denmark a lot, but I think they deserve it

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

I keep hearing that Scandinavia is going further and further right wing as it continues to privatize its publicly owned property and services and cuts down in benefits. Is this true?

# ¿ Jun 28, 2016 19:30

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 08:38

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

lilljonas posted:

It is true for Sweden the last two, two and a half decades, at least. Or rather, some common right wing positions are become more "standard", an other common left wing positions are also becoming more "standard", but more so of the former than the latter. The Social Democrats these days are defending positions regarding privatizations that would be considered radical borgeoise propaganda when I was small, and at the same time the right parties generally stopped singularly appealing to wealthy inner city elites.

Basically, the Social Democrats are middle-of-the-road centrists with a few flashes of red now and then. Meanwhile the right parties' general position has shifted to agree that the Swedish Model is good, and should not be torn down into a libertarian Thunderdome, but would be better managed by the right, with changes to benefit employed people.

This is most visible in issues such as public insurance (which got much worse for permanently disabled, and patients with long term illnesses), the changes promoting privatized health care and education, the tax rebates for household work (which was definitely a right-wing agenda that the Social Democrats have accepted), and general tax rebates for income-earners that were kept after the Social Democrats and Greens took over. All these were pushed by the right the last decades, and were initially resisted by the left, but are now still in place despite the change in government.

Great post. Thank you.

lilljonas posted:

the tax rebates for household work

What's this mean?

# ¿ Jun 29, 2016 04:19

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

I've heard that the president of Iceland is nothing more than just a figure head. Is that true?

# ¿ Jul 1, 2016 16:03

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Iceland is not covered by the topic of this thread. Please obey the strict regulations of the thread, lest it fall into chaos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia

Iceland is to Scandinavia as "Y" is to vowels.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2016 16:17

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Alhazred posted:

But then you also would have to include the Orkney Islands, the part of UK that was under danelaw and Newfoundland. Its slippery slope and the end result is finns and estonians coming to post in the thread.

Okay fine. So I assume noone will answer my question.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2016 18:01

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Read this article which I found interesting.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2016 02:18

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Deceitful Penguin posted:

Aren't the Nordics as a whole blending up a hell of a lot more? I mean, percentage of first gen foreign born in Iceland is a bit over ten percent and that doesn't include Icelanders born abroad or first and second gen immigrants and I'd think there'd be a heckload more of them on the mainland, so it's even more flawed?

The article touches upon this, but yeah the notion of the Nordic countries being 100% white is no longer completely accurate.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2016 02:50

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

So I came across these studies:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2016/09/23/denmerica-why-denmark-plus-america-could-be-the-mobility-utopia/
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/the-american-dream-isnt-alive-in-denmark/494141/

So apparently Denmark doesn't have that good of social mobility, it just appears so due to tax transfers?

# ¿ Mar 24, 2018 23:49

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

On the economic side of things, a myopic look at income alone seems problematic. It's possible that the US has similar mobility in terms of income alone, but what about the debt you have to accrue to achieve that? If that debt is a function of parental wealth and income, then this is an inter-generational effect that the study seemingly ignores, because it's not directly income-related. A quick googling of the average income for bachelor's/master's degrees in the US and the monthly repayment bill (for people with loans), puts repayment at around 10% of income on average, for 20 years. That' seems like a pretty significant chunk of income, one which could be far greater if you didn't have parental support, reducing real mobility in a way the comparison doesn't account for.

All that aside, focusing on mobility alone seems kinda dumb too. Like, the potential mobility in terms of access to healthcare in the US is enormous, but 10% of people climbing from the "Major illness will bankrupt me" bracket to "I can just go to the hospital, no worries" bracket is not a better situation than 1% of people climbing from the "I can just go to the hospital, no worries" bracket to the "I can pay to skip the line" bracket.

Great post.

That said, I also wonder if there are any studies on social mobility and wealth. Income is far too limiting, as you said.

KozmoNaut posted:

The cited paper is basically a classical liberal/conservative hit piece, manufactured ammunition for the current "lower all taxes, hack and slash, privatize everything, abolish unions" right-wing government.

They're claiming the American labor model is one to admire, with is just laughably false. The language used in the report and the articles you link is full of little barbs at the "high tax burden and generous redistribution to the poor", automatically taking the stance that this is somehow a bad thing, and repeating the right-wing nonsense that higher marginal taxes somehow discourage people from seeking higher education.

Brookings is our "left" wing media while The Atlantic is our "center". Yes, it's sad.

Though I do think they have a point of social mobility should only be measured pre-tax.

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Mar 26, 2018

# ¿ Mar 26, 2018 01:00

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Is Sweden still struggling integrating refugees? Or have things been inproving? I recall refugees had a huge unemployment rate.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2018 16:36

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

While I'm asking questions, I'm curious, why do your education results lag behind neighboring countries? Is it due to all three charter schools?

Zudgemud posted:

Yes, because these things take years to mess up and years to fix, the effects of the 2015 wave are also crystallizing to more long-term problems. For example a growing problem is the asylum seekers who get denied asylum are often not sent back to their "home countries" and thus go underground where they reside in a legal vacuum where they lose legal options for livelihood and societal integration. Thus an easily exploited illegal underclass is growing, a boon for organized crime.

Thanks.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2018 18:05

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

If Norway and Sweden underperform, why don't they just use Finland's model?

# ¿ Mar 28, 2018 19:26

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Just nationalization all schools and have each class be proportional by academic performance, income, and ethnic background.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2018 19:38

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

The only "socialist" place in the world is Bolonga in Italy. Everywhere else is a mox of Capitalism and statism. Usually the former dominating.

Katt posted:

What about the whole thing where the government strong arms capital to keep down things like rent prices and maintain labour rights?

Government intervention isn't socialist in itself. Now if the apartments were ownd collectively by it's residents, then that would be a socialist policy.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2018 22:01

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 08:38

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

pigdog posted:

wha... are you saying antifa has no role in preventing radicalisation

You're dumb. Stop posting.

# ¿ May 25, 2018 08:19

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Scandinavia: I know I shit on Denmark a lot, but I think they deserve it