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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Right, the discussion that's been happening for the last few pages, happened in all of the pages. I honestly don't really want to be talking about Harris, I want to be talking about, you know, the stuff I outlined in the OP. Because he's a racist who singled out people who aren't white for his examples of the scourge of religion op
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Jul 9, 2016 22:34
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I agree with basically all of this. I hate Dawkins because of his abject hypocrisy. For all his preaching of the scientific method, he has zero self-evaluation of his own beliefs. It's loving sad. It's nice to know that all my beliefs about Harris were justified. I guess teenage me wasn't completely wrong.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:34
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Op is the only thing that could convince you that Harris is a racist piece of poo poo is if he wrote an article called "why I hate the subhuman monstrosity known as the Muslim"
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Jul 9, 2016 22:35
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Literally The Worst posted:"why I hate the subhuman monstrosity known as the Muslim" There's no need to bring up his early works.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:37
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Literally The Worst posted:Op is the only thing that could convince you that Harris is a racist piece of poo poo is if he wrote an article called "why I hate the subhuman monstrosity known as the Muslim" I literally posted a scientific article that was backed by the FBI about why religious extremism is a thing, and that it has very little to do with the religion itself, and the OP doubled down with "BUT VIOLENCE IN HOLY TEXTS! CORRELATION IS CAUSATION!" so nah that prob won't help.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:37
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SSNeoman posted:I literally posted a scientific article that was backed by the FBI about why religious extremism is a thing, and that it has very little to do with the religion itself, and the OP doubled down with "BUT VIOLENCE IN HOLY TEXTS! CORRELATION IS CAUSATION!" Well hell the most common thing bought by westerners joining Daesh was 'Islam for Dummies' so it's not like they were hardcore Islamists
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Jul 9, 2016 22:39
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BrandorKP posted:That doesn't seem to be the case... Counterpoint: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vi9oNs42hs Literally The Worst posted:Op is the only thing that could convince you that Harris is a racist piece of poo poo is if he wrote an article called "why I hate the subhuman monstrosity known as the Muslim" Yes. Obviously that would convince me. I am not opposed to being wrong and sufficient evidence would convince me and I would admit it.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:39
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Right, and I'm the one reading into statements ideas that aren't there. They do it because it's a thing their community does. Some of them like being active in that community and some others don't want to lose it. People with religious ideas aren't some weird species of idiot people who see a different universe than you do. Their religious ideas are all bound up in the same emotions, human relationships, and communities that drive me or you to do things. Nobody gets up early to shove a cracker in his mouth because he's afraid of supernatural powers killing him over it.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:39
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:One of many posts I meant to respond to but missed earlier. I think we have a genuine disagreement over the bolded part; I really don't understand how you can think this is true. Without a doctrine they believe to be issued from the creator of the universe telling them to, religious people would want to kill gays just as much? With just the same alacrity? Again, it seems that you think religious beliefs somehow aren't actionable in the way that conventional beliefs are. Well if this is the case, then why do some Christians spend all their time setting up anti-gay camps and trying to get gays executed in Uganda, and others go out of their way to make LGBT people feel welcome in their congregations? Their bibles all still have Leviticus in them. Literally The Worst posted:Op is the only thing that could convince you that Harris is a racist piece of poo poo is if he wrote an article called "why I hate the subhuman monstrosity known as the Muslim" "That was just for effect, watch 1:01.20 to 1:03.45 in this video to explain it away"
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Jul 9, 2016 22:39
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OP, if Islamists can be dangerous enough to unleash nuclear Armageddon, why has the nuclear-capable Islamic Republic of Pakistan failed to do so?
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Jul 9, 2016 22:40
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Tesseraction posted:OP, if Islamists can be dangerous enough to unleash nuclear Armageddon, why has the nuclear-capable Islamic Republic of Pakistan failed to do so? And why did Pervez Musharraf have a dog?
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Jul 9, 2016 22:42
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Counterpoint: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vi9oNs42hs ok so why specifically is islam so much more dangerous than religions where the practitioners are white as gently caress
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Jul 9, 2016 22:46
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And golly, what else could be going on in Palestine that would make a mother think her son's sacrifice was worthwhile?
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Jul 9, 2016 22:47
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quote:Nobody gets up early to shove a cracker in his mouth because he's afraid of supernatural powers killing him over it. Not what I said, but boy, when you phrase it in a way that's ridiculous, it sure does sound ridiculous, doesn't it? Jack Gladney posted:They do it because it's a thing their community does. Some of them like being active in that community and some others don't want to lose it. People with religious ideas aren't some weird species of idiot people who see a different universe than you do. Their religious ideas are all bound up in the same emotions, human relationships, and communities that drive me or you to do things. This is just adding an extra step. Why does the community do it then? Religious people aren't some weird species of idiot, no. But they absolutely do see a different universe. Everything that is was placed here by God. Everything that happens is part of God's plan. There is a realm to exist in after death. This is not the same universe. SedanChair posted:Well if this is the case, then why do some Christians spend all their time setting up anti-gay camps and trying to get gays executed in Uganda, and others go out of their way to make LGBT people feel welcome in their congregations? Their bibles all still have Leviticus in them. Again, you're adding in a counterpoint that doesn't actually pertain to the claims. The issue is that those who do execute gays in this context do it because of their beliefs. If they didn't have the idea that God wanted them to kill gays, they wouldn't kill gays, or to temper that as much as possible, to give you the benefit of every possible doubt: they would not do it nearly as much. People may respond to the belief that "Fred has kidnapped my daughter" in different ways; some may shoot Fred without hesitation, some may try to talk to Fred, but the ones that shoot him do so because of this belief. If they did not believe Fred had kidnapped their daughter, they would not shoot him. What you seem to be arguing is that the person just starts out with an inclination to shoot Fred, then finds some justification as an afterthought. This seems ridiculous to me.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:49
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What would make a palestinian arab in particular happy about her son blowing himself up? What would make a black man in america happy about killing black cops and then blowing himself up? I bet it's because these people are just barbarians by virtue of the culture they're raised in. What else could it possible be?
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Jul 9, 2016 22:49
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SedanChair posted:And why did Pervez Musharraf have a dog? I'm starting to think these 'Muslims' are human beings with feelings and thoughts.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:50
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Again, you're adding in a counterpoint that doesn't actually pertain to the claims. The issue is that those who do execute gays in this context do it because of their beliefs. If they didn't have the idea that God wanted them to kill gays, they wouldn't kill gays, or to temper that as much as possible, to give you the benefit of every possible doubt: they would not do it nearly as much. your claim is that bible says "gently caress the gays" so they hate gay people what about the people who read the same bible and don't take that from it perhaps Religion is not a fuckin monoculture you ignorant shithead
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Jul 9, 2016 22:52
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Again, you're adding in a counterpoint that doesn't actually pertain to the claims. The issue is that those who do execute gays in this context do it because of their beliefs. If they didn't have the idea that God wanted them to kill gays, they wouldn't kill gays, or to temper that as much as possible, to give you the benefit of every possible doubt: they would not do it nearly as much. You'd need to provide evidence for that, and set it against the history of entirely secular persecution of gays.
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Jul 9, 2016 22:59
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Literally The Worst posted:perhaps Religion is not a fuckin monoculture you ignorant shithead Haven't claimed it is. We're talking about trends. Perhaps I have not been explicit about this in every post, and for that I apologize. Literally The Worst posted:your claim is that bible says "gently caress the gays" so they hate gay people Again, this is irrelevant, and again, I cannot walk you through the theological acrobatics it takes to deny that the Bible is intolerant of gay people. The point is that those who fall into the latter category do not think God has condemned them, not that they think he has but don't care. When a belief that God has condemned gay people leads to the believer killing gays, removing from that believer that particular belief will, as a general principle, though perhaps not 100% of the time, remove the killing of gay people as well. And if this indeed happens, then my contention is that the belief is a problem. Even if the person gets a sense of community or feelings of love or a purpose in life, if they also get a bloodlust for homosexuals, the belief is bad, and should be opposed (AS A MATTER OF CONVERSATION OR TABOO, NOT IN THE SENSE THAT WE NEED TO NUKE THEM, TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR TO THOSE WHO WILL INEVITABLY READ BARBARISM INTO WHAT I SAY)
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Jul 9, 2016 23:01
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SedanChair posted:You'd need to provide evidence for that, and set it against the history of entirely secular persecution of gays. No, I don't. People finding a way to have prejudice against gays that isn't religiously motivated does not magically eliminate every instance where it is.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:03
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:
People like to meet material and human needs. Community gives catholics exactly what your community gives to you: friends, dignity, a place to go, a sense that you belong somewhere, a system of support if things go wrong or you need somebody to watch your kid for half an hour. That such a community should come partially out of metaphysics that differ from your own doesn't mean that they do the things they do out of some weird, irrational compulsion. Most catholics don't give a poo poo about what the bible says or what their priest says unless it's also what their mom or sister says or what actually organizes their communities. I dated a catholic who had no idea the pope said she shouldn't use condoms, and she didn't believe me when I told her. There are catholics in Ireland who would react differently. You have an extremely simplistic and naive idea of the nature of religious experience. People give a poo poo about life after death for maybe two months at the end of lives lasting 80 years. They never give a real poo poo about the origin of the universe or how it's ordered, or stop caring ten seconds after the conversation is over. They care about loving and being loved, and belonging and being able to have a life that they want.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:05
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Literally The Worst posted:ok so why specifically is islam so much more dangerous than religions where the practitioners are white as gently caress Also, through all of the 20th century, Christians have killed WAY more other Christians then other religions. Muslims also killed more Muslims than christians did. I wonder if Harris and the OP would have advocated for the same atomic solution had they been alive in the 1920s, for another brand of extremism. "If the fascists come to power in Italy and the Nazis in Germany, we will have no choice but to exterminate those countries pre-emptively". And if not, why? As an atheist, I do consider religion to enable some truly vile poo poo. It can even be considered to do so in some uniquely bad ways compared to other motivators like race, ideology, greed and such. But going out of your way to portray it as an End Boss of evil all too often means that you are personally in search of a boogeyman to slay ( or to just feel good about yourself by opposing something bad). My father is agnostic, and he holds truly shameful hatred for gays and trans people; not enough to call for their deaths, but only just, and I wonder if that would change if me or my brother had come out gay. My mother is a practicing catholic and sees nothing wrong with either. Shed likely love to attend a gay pride parade, mostly because she loves all kinds of parades. Human beings are complex bastards. As an aside, OP; me and others have posted plenty of stuff about other aspects of New Atheism and its figures. So you can drop Harris' jockstrap at any point, you know. Is it possible to derail your own thread?
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Jul 9, 2016 23:06
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:No, I don't. People finding a way to have prejudice against gays that isn't religiously motivated does not magically eliminate every instance where it is. See but you're assuming the real motivation is religious belief, which is the very premise the nice internet man is contesting.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:08
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Again, this is irrelevant, and again, I cannot walk you through the theological acrobatics it takes to deny that the Bible is intolerant of gay people. so basically you can't reconcile the two ideas because you're an idiot GAINING WEIGHT... posted:No, I don't. People finding a way to have prejudice against gays that isn't religiously motivated does not magically eliminate every instance where it is. well when you're saying quote:If they didn't have the idea that God wanted them to kill gays, they wouldn't kill gays, or to temper that as much as possible, to give you the benefit of every possible doubt: they would not do it nearly as much. you do in fact have to compare it to the amount of secular homophobia
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Jul 9, 2016 23:09
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:No, I don't. People finding a way to have prejudice against gays that isn't religiously motivated does not magically eliminate every instance where it is. But there is no evidence that they wouldn't have found a different framework to express their hatred. Here's the thing: only hateful people get into hate. It's not enough to read Leviticus, you actually have to be a bastard who Leviticus would resonate with.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:17
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Haven't claimed it is. We're talking about trends. Perhaps I have not been explicit about this in every post, and for that I apologize. Millions maybe billions of rational people with at least nominal religious beliefs ignore the parts of the bible that they don't care about or those parts of the bible that conflict with their values or the world they want to live in or create. Why are the communities of religious people who do want to kill gay people so unevenly distributed across the planet Earth and so heavily concentrated in contexts that share specific economic and material conditions?
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Jul 9, 2016 23:19
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Jack Gladney posted:What would make a palestinian arab in particular happy about her son blowing himself up? What would make a black man in america happy about killing black cops and then blowing himself up? I bet it's because these people are just barbarians by virtue of the culture they're raised in. What else could it possible be? Why aren't moderate Pentecostals speaking out?
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Jul 9, 2016 23:24
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Jack Gladney posted:That such a community should come partially out of metaphysics that differ from your own doesn't mean that they do the things they do out of some weird, irrational compulsion. Again, not what I have said. I am actually trying to say it is an entirely normal compulsion that matches the compulsion seen when a belief is not a religious one. quote:You have an extremely simplistic and naive idea of the nature of religious experience. People give a poo poo about life after death for maybe two months at the end of lives lasting 80 years. They never give a real poo poo about the origin of the universe or how it's ordered, or stop caring ten seconds after the conversation is over. They care about loving and being loved, and belonging and being able to have a life that they want. If you are saying the believers as I have described them don't exist, you are the naive one. I have met these people. I have seen them make stupid or harmful decisions on the basis of believing that God wanted them to. I don't know what else to tell you. This irenic view that religions are just nice coatings for what people would have been anyway seems just plainly bizarre. Again: why is it that beliefs are actionable up until the point that they are religious beliefs? Jack Gladney posted:See but you're assuming the real motivation is religious belief, which is the very premise the nice internet man is contesting. Being patronizing doesn't change the fact that you've misunderstood me. Let's start from the top: there is hatred of gays which is religious, hatred of gays which is not, non-hatred of gays which is religious, and non-hatred of gays that is not. My point is that the first category A) exists, and B) is at least partially comprised of people for whom either the sole or the primary motivation for their hatred is their religious doctrine. Pointing out the fact that the second, third, and fourth categories exist does nothing to address this. WHEN this is the case, we would be better off without those people believing those things. Right? I mean, let's start with the simple and work our way out to the nuanced. For JUST THOSE PEOPLE, wouldn't you agree that we'd be better off if they didn't have that belief that guides their anti-gay prejudice? That if we could talk them out of the beliefs that cause them to hate gays, we should? There is an entire discussion to be had as to whether the hatred of gays that we get in this (likely minority) subset of believers is outweighed by the benefits of that same religion as it manifests itself elsewhere, and then the same but considering all factors, positive and negative, of all manifestations of all religions. Yes, that's an absurdly big task. I never said we'd solve it or that it would have a simple, straightforward answer. But that doesn't mean it's unworthy of even discussing. That is what I had hoped this thread would be about, honestly, not accusations of racism and deliberately misreading Sam Harris.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:39
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i'm sorry i deliberately misread sam harris saying the muslim for SOME REASON is just so much more barbaric than any other religious group is that in the unlikely event htey crawled out of their caves and got hold of a nuke, we would obviously have to nuke them just on principle to stay safe oh wait no that's what he actually said
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Jul 9, 2016 23:42
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SedanChair posted:But there is no evidence that they wouldn't have found a different framework to express their hatred. Here's the thing: only hateful people get into hate. It's not enough to read Leviticus, you actually have to be a bastard who Leviticus would resonate with. Okay, here's a good example: Megan Phelps-Roper. Granddaughter of Fred Phelps, fervent member of Westboro Baptist Church until her mid-twenties. Hated gays, picketed soldiers' funerals, the works. Just as in the swim of barbarism as everyone in her church. Then, she got talked out of it. I don't mean talked out of hating gays, I mean talked out of believing in God. Realizing the intellectual problems, contradictions, and absurdities within her faith. Spent some time mulling it over. Realized it wasn't real. Now she's non-religious, and has no hatred of gay people or any of the other prejudices of her former church. How do you explain this? Is it just coincidence, that she changed from a hateful into a non-hateful person at the same moment as she was doubting her faith? Or did she never actually hate gays, she just pretended to because of....??? Some Reasons? Or is it possible that the religious belief she held informed her hatred of gays, and that when she lost that religious belief, a rationale for hating gays went with it? e: also a good example to serve as proof-of-concept that even religious lunatics can succumb to rational conversation GAINING WEIGHT... fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jul 9, 2016 |
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Jul 9, 2016 23:45
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Literally The Worst posted:i'm sorry i deliberately misread sam harris saying the muslim for SOME REASON is just so much more barbaric than any other religious group is that in the unlikely event htey crawled out of their caves and got hold of a nuke, we would obviously have to nuke them just on principle to stay safe Hey, I know no one's ever told you this, but you are.......literally.........the WORST ! ! ! !
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Jul 9, 2016 23:46
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Hey, I know no one's ever told you this, but you are.......literally.........the WORST ! ! ! ! so you're not even trying anymore why do you keep making garbage threads about religion, serious question
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Jul 9, 2016 23:47
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Literally The Worst posted:so you're not even trying anymore Yes, me making a single joke is a gesture of surrender. And my threads are superb.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:49
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Okay, here's a good example: Megan Phelps-Roper. Granddaughter of Fred Phelps, fervent member of Westboro Baptist Church until her mid-twenties. Hated gays, picketed soldiers' funerals, the works. Just as in the swim of barbarism as everyone in her church. you literally used a church based around the idea that god hates gays as your fuckin example the gently caress do you think
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Jul 9, 2016 23:49
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Okay, here's a good example: Megan Phelps-Roper. Granddaughter of Fred Phelps, fervent member of Westboro Baptist Church until her mid-twenties. Hated gays, picketed soldiers' funerals, the works. Just as in the swim of barbarism as everyone in her church. She didn't have the heart for it. She wasn't that kind of person. It's exactly the kind of self-segregation I'm talking about.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:50
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Yes, me making a single joke is a gesture of surrender. i dunno man this and the WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD thread both smack of you being a smug atheist who needed to be pushed in a locker more in school and are pretty poo poo
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Jul 9, 2016 23:50
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:And my threads are superb. I do enjoy them.
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Jul 9, 2016 23:50
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Literally The Worst posted:you literally used a church based around the idea that god hates gays as your fuckin example Oh no, I used a good, solid example of exactly my premise being demonstrated to prove it! Oh no! Sorry it was...too perfect an example? e: and that's hardly what they're "based around" but okay. I'm pretty sure they're based around "God has delivered specific laws we need to follow". GAINING WEIGHT... fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Jul 9, 2016 |
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Jul 9, 2016 23:51
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SedanChair posted:I do enjoy them. Thank you. SedanChair posted:She didn't have the heart for it. She wasn't that kind of person. It's exactly the kind of self-segregation I'm talking about. Oof, this is the clearest No True Scotsman so far in this thread. Really? That's your answer? She was fine being vehemently anti-gay for all those years, but secretly didn't mean it? Why was it not a disgust at the treatment of gays that led her away from her religion, rather than being led away from her religion that removed her hatred of gays?
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Jul 9, 2016 23:53
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Oh no, I used a good, solid example of exactly my premise being demonstrated to prove it! Oh no! Sorry it was...too perfect an example? it's a terrible fuckin example because there are in fact many sects that are not literally 20 member cults, mostly composed of a single family, that preach bigotry as their foundational belief, and which still hate gays you're literally saying "why did this woman stop hating gays after she stopped believing in the specific brand of christianity peddled by her cult that was about literally nothing but hating gays" and using this as proof that really guys if people stopped going to church there would be less homophobia
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Jul 9, 2016 23:54
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