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Jenner posted:This is a good point and distinction and you are correct. The message is more about remembering/realizing who you are and honoring your roots. "Who are you? Be who you are." Is really simplifying it. I don't really agree here. I think it's more than honoring your roots - remember that the father's refusal to let her go was also justified in terms of tradition, especially with the whole climbing the mountain bit. I think the message is about knowing not just who you are but who you can be. Like Moana in that scene with ghost-grandmother realises that it was her that got her to that point - not the ocean or Maui, and that's what gets her to *modify* the mantra the Grandmother gave her to enable her herself to go and complete the quest on her own. The grandmother restores her confidence for sure, but part of that confidence is about exceeding her ancestors. Moana's insistence that we are voyagers is not just that we *were* voyagers, but that we can be voyagers again. Also remember that the grandmother's prophecy was also critically wrong in a bunch of ways. ImpAtom posted:This bothered me a little I admit. Maybe I'm misremembering but when they were doing the flashback to the voyagers it looked as if they did a "we voyage, find a new island, colonize, and the next generation goes out and voyages to a new island" but at the ending it seemed like they were ALL going off? Am I just misremembering and her dad stayed behind or did they really just take "we're voyagers" to mean "time to ditch this lovely island, suckers!" Nah, there were definitely ships that remained behind in that scene. Also Tamatoa is thematically the bad guy because he's ultimately static. He's stuck in a cave preening while the heroes are off doing things and becoming things. His karmic justice is to be stuck on his back unable to move at all, possibly pinned down by the weight of the shiny stuff he acquired. Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Dec 11, 2016 |
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Dec 11, 2016 18:54
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I thought the main villain was a bit boring and didn't like the resolution but it also occurred to me that aside from the guy in Treasure Planet, no other Disney main villains get redeemed in the end. Not counting stuff like Loki, Barbossa, Darth Vader or whatever.
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Dec 12, 2016 02:35
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Yeah, people play it like it's a common occurrence, but that's really not the case.
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Dec 12, 2016 02:46
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Oh yeah, someone pointed out to me that Tamatoa's thing is more subtle than that. Crabs grow and heal by shedding their shells. Tamatoa could have easily regenerated the leg Maui tore off, but has not for thousands of years because he's too attached to his existing one. The metaphor here is literally that attachment to material things and appearances holds you back from what you can be. Also! Nobody fake died in this one! Fangz fucked around with this message at 11:32 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 11:28
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Holy poo poo the giant crab's song is the best scene in the whole movie.
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Dec 12, 2016 16:34
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Fangz posted:Also! Nobody fake died in this one! There is a minute where it looks like Te Fiti died, before it tells you that Finkel = Einhorn. So better luck next movie 
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Dec 12, 2016 16:39
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Why didn't the ocean just give Te Fiti her heart.
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Dec 12, 2016 16:43
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Well that whole rage thing and being made literally of lava kind of makes it difficult for a water being with no voice to socket the heart back in and make everything better.. Besides, it's a heroic human journey to give reason why a race that used to voyage across the ocean but hasn't for years now is back to their boats and exploring.
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Dec 12, 2016 19:09
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Kurzon posted:Why didn't the ocean just give Te Fiti her heart. Kinda the point of the story is that both Maui and Moana (and so by extension, the humans) needed to learn important lessons about themselves. The goal of the mission isn't just to socket the gem into the hole, it's for humans to regain the courage to be compassionate. I haven't really thought out why the macguffin symbolises the power of creating life yet. Maybe the point is that through their quest and learning to be a wayfinder Moana learns to substitute for the stolen power with the idea of exploration and spreading civilisation, which means they don't need the gem any more? Or maybe it's a straightforward environmentalist message. Fangz fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 19:43
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Fangz posted:Also! Nobody fake died in this one! Maui's hook sure did, in a manner that was narratively identical to Maui fake dying except even less necessary Fangz posted:
The movie ends with her restoring the status quo; the Polynesians will always travel to new lands and the gem assures there will always be new lands to travel to. Without the gem, the travelers are static, stuck on their slowly dwindling island paradises, unable to effectively wield the stolen Power of Creation to create anything themselves. Part of the confusion over whether all the islanders took off at the ending I think is because while it's not what's happening if you look at the fine details, thematically the movie depicts them as voyaging kind of locust plague style from island to island, stripping it of resources and starving if they ever run out of new places to exploit A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 19:57
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Well the film kinda stresses that the reason why they stopped being voyagers was that after they settled on the island fewer and fewer boats started coming *back*, so going around locust like doesn't really make sense. I do agree that the ending would have been better if the fishhook stayed broken, though I guess keeping Maui around would have cramped on Moana's role as new Wayfinder.
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Dec 12, 2016 20:35
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Maui made a real sacrifice with the hook. He didn't expect to get it back. He got it back because he helped right a wrong that he caused accidentally (with arguably good intentions) and because he, of all people, humbly apologized. That's not a bad lesson.
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Dec 13, 2016 01:02
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Humanity should have claimed the Heart, obtained immortality, and created a race of horrible biotech abominations with which to rule the stars. After all, it's rude to refuse a gift. 
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Dec 13, 2016 01:53
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Phimosissy posted:Maui made a real sacrifice with the hook. He didn't expect to get it back. He got it back because he helped right a wrong that he caused accidentally (with arguably good intentions) and because he, of all people, humbly apologized. That's not a bad lesson. It also sorta nullifies the significance of what he did if the ultimate reward for having made a real sacrifice is having the sacrifice be unmade as though it never happened within like five minutes, and tacitly endorses his earlier conviction that he's nothing without his sweet rear end god-hook. The lesson is to never change; things are best as they are now, Moana's dad's only error was in picking the wrong rut to devote his life to trying to remain frozen in forever. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Humanity should have claimed the Heart, obtained immortality, and created a race of horrible biotech abominations with which to rule the stars.
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Dec 13, 2016 07:27
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I sort of didn't buy Maui's "I'm only as good as my hook, without it I have no powers!" schtick since he managed to live for a thousand years anyway which SEEMS kind of magic.
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Dec 13, 2016 07:35
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Pick posted:I sort of didn't buy Maui's "I'm only as good as my hook, without it I have no powers!" schtick since he managed to live for a thousand years anyway which SEEMS kind of magic. he seemed pretty generally larger than life and capable of leading heroic adventures all on his own were the gods not unfortunately enabling his crippling shapeshifting addiction
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Dec 13, 2016 07:40
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Fangz posted:I do agree that the ending would have been better if the fishhook stayed broken, though I guess keeping Maui around would have cramped on Moana's role as new Wayfinder.
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Dec 13, 2016 11:04
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What kind of literal lovely rear end god wouldn't give Maui a new hook?? She's the goddamned god of creation I would've been more taken out of the movie if she didn't create him a new hook!!! Come on people!!! Flynn is alive, Maui got a new hook, Baymax came back to life, stop wanting to be sad so much!!!A Wizard of Goatse posted:It also sorta nullifies the significance of what he did if the ultimate reward for having made a real sacrifice is having the sacrifice be unmade as though it never happened within like five minutes People always say this about sacrifices in movies that get "undone" later and I just don't agree. The person getting his thing or life back doesn't change the fact that the person sacrificed the thing or life in the first place
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Dec 13, 2016 13:47
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I think the significant moment in that scene isn't him getting back the hook, but him waiting for Moana's permission to take it up again. The trickster demigod asking the human for permission to regain his powers is a big change to his character. It shows that the power has shifted from him doing things to be awesome to humans to him taking guidance from humans (or at least one human). It makes sense as an arch, since him doing awesome stuff worked fine until he doomed the world with a mistake - all on behalf of humans.
Wiggy Marie fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 14:26
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Kurzon posted:If I had written it, Te Fiti would have given him a new artifact, say a magic spear, that had similar powers. It shows that while things can be healed they're never quite the same as before. Yeah that would have been much better I think. Maybe he gets to make friends with the ocean (Moana style) to compensate, if we're backseat-screenwriting? Macaluso posted:What kind of literal lovely rear end god wouldn't give Maui a new hook?? She's the goddamned god of creation I would've been more taken out of the movie if she didn't create him a new hook!!! Come on people!!! Flynn is alive, Maui got a new hook, Baymax came back to life, stop wanting to be sad so much!!! I don't think this is as bad as Baymax coming back to life (it was kinda pure pointless drama that he died) and I don't have an issue with Flynn being alive. But I mean the main thing is that I don't see Maui losing the fish-hook as sad, and thematically it shouldn't be.
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Dec 13, 2016 15:41
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Wiggy Marie posted:I think the significant moment in that scene isn't him getting back the hook, but him waiting for Moana's permission to take it up again. The trickster demigod asking the human for permission to regain his powers is a big change to his character. It shows that the power has shifted from him doing things to be awesome to humans to him taking guidance from humans (or at least one human). It makes sense as an arch, since him doing awesome stuff worked fine until he doomed the world with a mistake - all on behalf of humans. Doing awesome stuff never worked fine, for him. It was never enough. He progressed from being desperate to please people and utterly dependent on his magic trinket for emotional support to being desperate to please people and utterly dependent on his magic trinket for emotional support; underneath a veneer of bravado that lasts roughly the length of his introductory song Maui is a tragic character who will never reach self-actualization or move past being the outcast child who chanced into a bit of power from the gods, and his endless personal hell is what makes the South Pacific a paradise unchanging A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 15:45
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:Doing awesome stuff never worked fine, for him. It was never enough. He progressed from being desperate to please people and utterly dependent on his magic trinket for emotional support to being desperate to please people and utterly dependent on his magic trinket for emotional support; underneath a veneer of bravado that lasts roughly the length of his introductory song Maui is a tragic character who will never reach self-actualization or move past being the outcast child who chanced into a bit of power from the gods, and his endless personal hell is what makes the South Pacific a paradise unchanging I was thinking more of how his actions benefited humans. He's specifically labeled as a trickster, and a trickster learning a lesson like another character would isn't really something I personally look for. The overall tone of the movie also didn't really lead me to think in terms of tragedies. I just felt happy and hopeful. If I have a complaint about Maui, it's more related to the fact that his trickster nature isn't really explored. I really enjoy tricksters in myths and religions, so I would've liked to see that more blatantly explored. I'm fine with him being a secondary character, though, because I really love Moana herself, and my personal reading, without going too deeply into my super-nerd reading of the movie as a whole, is that Maui's presence wasn't actually necessary for her to achieve what she wanted to achieve. I guess to summarize, any characterization or lack thereof of Maui didn't bother me because I felt it was intentional. However, if you check out the soundtrack, it does look like there was a much deeper narrative for him before, particularly with regards to way finding, so it makes sense that remnants of that would stick out to people, and be grating for some. Wiggy Marie fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 17:30
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I'm told that the song "Shiny" is inspired by 70s glam rock. Which songs most closely resemble Shiny?
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Dec 14, 2016 10:39
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Kurzon posted:I'm told that the song "Shiny" is inspired by 70s glam rock. Which songs most closely resemble Shiny? It's specifically aping Bowie's early years, but not a particular song. For that kind of vibe, try: Moonage Daydream Velvet Goldmine All the Young Dudes I'm sure someone else could recommend some deeper cuts.
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Dec 14, 2016 11:50
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I hear a lot of Starman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRcPA7Fzebw
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Dec 14, 2016 11:58
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I hear a bit of "Life on Mars". I guess that's a credit to Lin Manuel Miranda that he made such an obvious Bowie tribute song without any of us being able to pinpoint exactly which song/s with any sort of consensus.
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Dec 14, 2016 13:43
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Yeah, saw this yesterday and it was phenomenal. My wife cried the entire way through (really, starting with the Inner Body short) and immediately bought the soundtrack. I'm a big mythology buff, and all of it was so accurate. Pretty good.
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Dec 14, 2016 18:02
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My wife and I really enjoyed it. Maui was a great example of that neglected overachiever desperate for attention and validation. A few things I'm curious about : How did Tomatoa know about Maui's tragic backstory? In Shiny he mocks Maui's quest to get the hook back. I also didn't catch which leg was missing. Personally I would have preferred more screen time with Tomatoa instead of the coconut creatures.  SHINY!
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Dec 14, 2016 21:21
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Panfilo posted:My wife and I really enjoyed it. Maui was a great example of that neglected overachiever desperate for attention and validation. Maui's backstory appears to be well known, the islanders knew it at the start too. It's also literally etched onto his body. So I'm assuming he just bursts into song any time someone asks.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:18
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I meant the part about How he was an ordinary human abandoned by his parents and later turned into a demigod. Moana certainly didn't know until he confessed it.
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Dec 15, 2016 02:13
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Didn't Maui allude to the idea that they got along before he ripped the crab's leg off for some reason? Maybe they were friends back in the day.
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Dec 15, 2016 03:30
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Fangz posted:Didn't Maui allude to the idea that they got along before he ripped the crab's leg off for some reason? Maybe they were friends back in the day. Or... more than friends...
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Dec 15, 2016 03:32
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Pick posted:Or... more than friends... The Entire Bee Movie except Maui hosed a crab
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Dec 15, 2016 04:54
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Phimosissy posted:The Entire Bee Movie except Maui hosed a crab I would trust Disney to do it right!!!
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Dec 15, 2016 05:12
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I mean the song is pretty suggestive, quote:Well, well, well Guess Maui just couldn't keep up, and Tomatoa has outgrown him 
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Dec 15, 2016 05:31
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Crabs keep swinging Crabs always work it out
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Dec 15, 2016 05:42
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Someone needs to commission an illustration of Immortan Joe riding on the back of a Chromed out Tomatoa.
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Dec 15, 2016 05:50
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They finally added the whole "Shiny" scene to YouTube. So pretty much every song's scene from the movie is officially on YouTube.
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Dec 22, 2016 02:35
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I saw this last week - and I liked it a lot. My 4 1/2 year old cried twice (he knows his grandma is sick irl - which certainly ads a layer - and he's hapa and just visited Hawaii for the first time this year, too - specifically the island of Maui) and cheered once (when Maui comes back to help despite risking his godhood, essentially). One of the main themes of the story is voiced by the Dad, unwittingly, when he appeals early on to Moana to accept her boundaries, stay on the island, and grow into her role as future chief. Specifically, "You must find happiness right Where you are". What the inhabitants come to realize is that "where they are" is not specific to a specific place, e.g. the island of Motunui. Nor is it tied to a specific time with specific traditions. It's simply living in the moment with the people you love. That's what allows them to both voyage AND settle islands as a people. Btw, when he was waiting for the movie to come out, my son referred to it as "Maui" - not "Moana." After the movie we asked him who his favorite character was, and he was unequivocal in saying Moana. Wizchine fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 05:02
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I just have to gush a bit about Shiny. Just a graphically impressive sequence all around; lighting, composition, and animation. They get some great shapes and silhouettes out of Tamatoa--particularly his head/shell in the close up shots. Really great animation on his face, they had a lot of fun with those eyes and it was great to watch. It was also nice that they made Tamatoa fun but never diminished him as a threat to Moana and Maui.
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