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So the debate is what a writer owes to readers who happen to care a lot about a supporting character he uses.
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Aug 1, 2016 18:38
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stop being so dense dude
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Aug 1, 2016 18:41
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No the real debate is why Batman's ear spikes have become so tiny. Bring back the wide floppy ears from the 30's! EDIT: On a serious note, I'm actually surprised that TKJ movie didn't use nudity. The comic has a frame with Barbara nude. It's not glamourous or sexy, it's kinda there to contribute to her vulnerability and shock. The movie had a lot of weird fan-service shots of Batgirl Tits and rear end, and made a point to be violent and ADULT R-RATING NO KIDS EDGY MATURE, so I'm surprised they didn't take advantage of the story's nudity to throw it in there. Or maybe the did, and it was censored. I dunno. Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Aug 1, 2016 |
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Aug 1, 2016 18:42
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:stop being so dense dude
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Aug 1, 2016 18:47
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Kurzon posted:So the debate is what a writer owes to readers who happen to care a lot about a supporting character he uses. That isn't really what people are saying, no. Edit: That I sounded unreasonably dismissive on but the honest truth is that I'm not sure how else to explain it without repeating things I've already said. Sorry.  Franchescanado posted:No the real debate is why Batman's ear spikes have become so tiny. This I can agree on. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Aug 1, 2016 |
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Aug 1, 2016 18:48
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MY Batman has ears at minimum one head tall.
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Aug 1, 2016 18:59
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Endless Mike posted:MY Batman has ears at minimum one head tall.  Speaking of which I'm surprised we haven't gotten a Red Rain animated film.
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Aug 1, 2016 19:02
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ImpAtom posted:
These ears are pretty much perfect, but Batman's looking a little skinny there. His muscles need more definition.
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Aug 1, 2016 19:13
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The weirdest part of TKJ is that Joker goes so far out of his way to cripple and strip Barbara just to photograph her feet and shoulders.
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Aug 1, 2016 19:34
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Unmature posted:The weirdest part of TKJ is that Joker goes so far out of his way to cripple and strip Barbara just to photograph her feet and shoulders. He doesn't, though? I just made a post about how the comic has her topless and has pics of her rear end.
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Aug 1, 2016 19:36
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Franchescanado posted:He doesn't, though? I just made a post about how the comic has her topless and has pics of her rear end. In the movie. They don't even cover up a nude photo with Gordon's head or anything. It's just blatantly obvious that every photo is of her shoulders, feet, and face.
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Aug 1, 2016 20:08
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Unmature posted:In the movie. They don't even cover up a nude photo with Gordon's head or anything. It's just blatantly obvious that every photo is of her shoulders, feet, and face. Yeah, I also mentioned that in an earlier post. But I agree. Not that I think that nudity is necessary to convey sexual abuse or for shock value, the movie just made so many strange choices in bad taste, I'm surprised they didn't just go for it, even with all the prostitutes they have.
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Aug 1, 2016 20:25
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As ImpAtom says, the story is in large part about Gordon's victimisation. It isn't about Barbara's. Barbara is written as an extension of her father, and her suffering is written as a trial for him to overcome. This is the issue from a feminist perspective - the fact that Barbara has been assaulted and traumatised is key to the story, but this does not result in any kind of focus on her, writing for or about her, etc. Her suffering is a tool to motivate and draw out the emotions of her dad, Batman, and the Joker - and it's only that. The story frankly couldn't care less how Barbara Gordon herself feels about what she went through. I personally think that her being an established character hardly matters. If she was a new, nameless female character introduced for the purposes of The Killing Joke alone, it would just as cheesy and suspect that her only purpose in the story was to serve as violently maimed character grist for our male protagonists. It's a good comic. But this is all fairly evident.
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Aug 1, 2016 20:50
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But is this a bad thing?
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Aug 1, 2016 21:40
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Kurzon posted:But is this a bad thing? In a vacuum where there are no sexist attitudes toward women in the industry or in society in general, no. But in the context of the real world, yes it is bad because it is dumb that it keeps happening and is accepted as the norm. It is a pretty unhealthy way to treat 50% of the population of the planet.
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Aug 1, 2016 21:42
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Kurzon posted:But is this a bad thing? How is this even a question?
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Aug 1, 2016 21:48
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The Killing Joke isn't a very good superhero story. The superhero element just doesn't add that much to the story, so you end up with a weird serial killer story where the detective and killer both dress very silly.
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Aug 1, 2016 21:56
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The Killing Joke isn't a very good superhero story. The superhero element just doesn't add that much to the story, so you end up with a weird serial killer story where the detective and killer both dress very silly. The Killing Joke can only be a superhero story because it relies very heavily on the status quo of eternal escape being a thing which is basically a thing exclusive to superheroes or saturday morning cartoon characters who are indistinguishable from superheroes. If it isn't a Superhero story than "someday we'll have to kill each other' isn't a thing because Joker sits his rear end in jail for the rest of his life. (I am not necessarily saying this is a good thing but it is a story that depends on superheroes and the genre to exist.)
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Aug 1, 2016 21:59
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ImpAtom posted:The Killing Joke can only be a superhero story because it relies very heavily on the status quo of eternal escape being a thing which is basically a thing exclusive to superheroes or saturday morning cartoon characters who are indistinguishable from superheroes. Not at all. Lawmen and criminals having antagonistic but continuing relationships is a very standard idea in fiction (Justified and Hannibal for some more recent examples). Turning Killing Joke into a "mundane" thriller is as easy as combining the roles of Batman and Jim Gordon, and not having Joker depend so much on a theatrical persona. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Aug 1, 2016 |
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Aug 1, 2016 22:08
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Not at all. Lawmen and criminals having antagonistic but continuing relationship is a very standard idea, especially in fiction (Justified and Hannibal for some more recent examples). That isn't really the same thing though. Part of the idea of The Killing Joke is that the Joker can not be contained not because of character but because of status quo. The plot depends on the idea that the Joker will escape, it is an inevitability. The status quo will never change until death. It is impossible for there to be another outcome because death is the only way to break the status quo. It doesn't mean literal death though. It means the end of a character arc. A character reaching their final development step. Batman isn't pleading for Joker not to kill him. He's pleading for the Joker to come up with a different ending that isn't that but both of them know can't happen. Crime Fiction, for obvious reason, does not treat escape as an inevitability, nor does it assume a never-ending game. Hannibal Lector is threatening but crime fiction doesn't assume an eternal status quo. Even Hannibal, who escapes, is treated as exceptional for doing so and not someone who will always escape in every situation no matter what. (Though Graham obviously fears being outsmarted or corrupted.) This is because Hannibal ends. It has multiple endings but it isn't built on the idea of a story that doesn't end. Will Graham doesn't have to plead with Hannibal to let their stories end in some way that isn't horror because they don't even consider the idea their stories won't end.
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Aug 1, 2016 22:35
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ImpAtom posted:Part of the idea of The Killing Joke is that the Joker can not be contained not because of character but because of status quo. Not really. There's nothing that can't be recontextualized as a cop who's death with the same criminal a couple of times. You're really overthinking the concept of "status quo". It gives the story some additional meaning, but it's still not a very good superhero story.
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Aug 1, 2016 22:55
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The batman status quo is mega stupid
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Aug 1, 2016 23:54
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:The batman status quo is mega stupid It is the same template for 99% of superhero books so singling it out is kind of silly.
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Aug 2, 2016 00:18
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ToastyPotato posted:It is the same template for 99% of superhero books so singling it out is kind of silly. I think the major difference is that 99% of superhero books don't play the "why doesn't (x) kill (y)" game which is, while certainly not exclusive to Batman, a lot more heavily emphasized in Batman. So it makes the status quo feel dumber because they keep lampshading it. The closest I can think of is Daredevil and obviously Daredevil is way more over-the-place.
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Aug 2, 2016 00:20
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ImpAtom posted:I think the major difference is that 99% of superhero books don't play the "why doesn't (x) kill (y)" game which is, while certainly not exclusive to Batman, a lot more heavily emphasized in Batman. So it makes the status quo feel dumber because they keep lampshading it. Fair enough. I guess that is what happens when a series is a lightning rod for grim dark stories and villains who are so dark that we have to keep upping the ante on how dark they can be, all the while the main hero, who is also grim and dark, has a core philosophy to never kill. It took a minute to realize how murderous Batman's rogues gallery is.
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Aug 2, 2016 00:24
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ToastyPotato posted:Fair enough. I guess that is what happens when a series is a lightning rod for grim dark stories and villains who are so dark that we have to keep upping the ante on how dark they can be, all the while the main hero, who is also grim and dark, has a core philosophy to never kill. I actually quite like adaptations of Batman where they draw a line. Sure Joker and Harvey are fuckin lunatics, but Penguin and Riddler are legit freaked out by those guys. They wouldn't kill anyone. They're crooks, not murderes. I guess that kind of thing infringes on the 3rd best Rogues Gallery in comics. BravestOfTheLamps posted:The Killing Joke isn't a very good superhero story. The superhero element just doesn't add that much to the story, so you end up with a weird serial killer story where the detective and killer both dress very silly. I'm not trying to be condescending. What is the superhero element? If the dressing silly and WE CAN'T KILL HIM and Bat-Signal doesn't do it, what is the missing stuff that you feel keeps it from being a superhero story? Not enough biffs and pows? Okay, in that last line I was being condescending.
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Aug 2, 2016 02:55
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My favorite superhero stories are often the ones where they don't restrict themselves to standard superhero scenarios. You can still have fun with people punching endless waves of people because they're bad guys, but it's more interesting when the whole thing becomes more of a character drama. Although in some respects, the main reason the less superheroic stories even happen with superheroes is just because superheroes have a stranglehold on the comic industry as a whole. Writers have ended up stretching superheroes far beyond what they have ever been meant for.
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Aug 2, 2016 03:14
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SlothfulCobra posted:My favorite superhero stories are often the ones where they don't restrict themselves to standard superhero scenarios. You can still have fun with people punching endless waves of people because they're bad guys, but it's more interesting when the whole thing becomes more of a character drama. They weren't meant for anything. They started out as a continuation of old pulp action heroes and evolved into whatever they need to be. The reason "less superheroic" stories happen with superheroes is because there's no such thing as a "less superheroic" story. Superheroes aren't a specific genre, they're a brightly coloured medium that can be used to tell basically any kind of story you want. Half the fun is seeing what you get when you filter "normal" storytelling methods and tropes though the strange, hyperstylised lens of superheroes.
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Aug 2, 2016 06:46
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ImpAtom posted:God, you really are just the worst loving poster in this subforum. I'm sorry that I don't see the value in endlessly ranting about something, especially when my entire angle on that thing is asinine and clearly motivated by fanboyism of a lovely character. But please feel free to continue judging me as a person for disagreeing with one thing you said in your gigantic idiotic rant. "Oh no! He thinks one of the universally agreed 3 best Batman comics is good! What a piece of poo poo!" I guess if I'd posted 600 words about something as blatantly obvious as "The Killing Joke is an extremely well thought-out masterpiece that defined Batman and Joker's relationship for decades" you'd be totally cool with it, and not be throwing a dumb tantrum about its mistreatment of one of DC's most boring characters. Clearly the problem is with my conciseness and not your stupid childish grudge with a well-respected author. You dumb motherfucker. Lurdiak fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Aug 2, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 07:26
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Everyone, please read my 3 page hot take on why Death of Captain Marvel is a lovely book by a lovely writer because it doesn't treat Gamora with the respect she deserves. What's that, you think I'm dumb? Well that makes you a lovely poster who isn't willing to debate honestly with us intellectuals.
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Aug 2, 2016 07:33
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I don't think the general consensus is that The Killing Joke is lovely. In fact, I don't think there's a single person in this thread saying that. It is possible to like something for one reason and also criticise it for others. Even very good things can have major flaws that are worth unpacking and discussing. I don't think it's controversial to say that this is one of those cases, and it's particularly relevant to this thread because those flaws, rather than being redeemed in transition to an animated feature, were instead amplified by some tone-deaf decisions on the part of the adapters.
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Aug 2, 2016 07:46
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Android Blues posted:I don't think the general consensus is that The Killing Joke is lovely. In fact, I don't think there's a single person in this thread saying that. ImpAtom was repeatedly saying the book was poorly written, and got really upset that I disagreed without writing a novel. I don't mind if people criticize the book, I'm not married to it.
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Aug 2, 2016 07:51
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The Killing Joke didn't actually define the Batman's and Joker's relationship. In The Killing Joke, Joker is a pained individual desperate to rationalize his suffering and make others understand. Most every comic actually just go back to Joker's original characterization as a remorseless, theatrical serial killer.SonicRulez posted:I'm not trying to be condescending. What is the superhero element? If the dressing silly and WE CAN'T KILL HIM and Bat-Signal doesn't do it, what is the missing stuff that you feel keeps it from being a superhero story? Not enough biffs and pows? A good superhero story. In this case, it lacks the imagination and scale of a superhero story. And it stumbles on basic genre building blocks. The comic never establishes, for example, that Batman is a vigilante crime-fighter who dresses as a supernatural creature to frighten criminals. According to The Killing Joke, Batman is a strangely-dressed man that inexplicably commands the respect and reverence of police officers and criminals alike. Things like this make the comic feel vague and inconstant. e: So yes, the movie is actually superior as a superhero yarn. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Aug 2, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 10:28
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The comic never establishes, for example, that Batman is a vigilante crime-fighter who dresses as a supernatural creature to frighten criminals. According to The Killing Joke, Batman is a strangely-dressed man that inexplicably commands the respect and reverence of police officers and criminals alike. Things like this make the comic feel vague and inconstant. The Killing Joke does not exist in a vacuum. I think it is safe to assume people know a few things about Batman without every single comic going back to his origin.
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Aug 2, 2016 10:36
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ToastyPotato posted:In a vacuum where there are no sexist attitudes toward women in the industry or in society in general, no. But in the context of the real world, yes it is bad because it is dumb that it keeps happening and is accepted as the norm. It is a pretty unhealthy way to treat 50% of the population of the planet. I wonder how viewers treated RR Martin after they watched Sansa Stark getting raped by Ramsey Bolton. It's gruesome but that's how women, even noblewomen, were treated in the Middle Ages. At least Martin gave Sansa an opportunity to take revenge personally.
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Aug 2, 2016 11:20
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A schlocky soap opera that operates on shock value is both a very apt and very poor comparison.
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Aug 2, 2016 11:27
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Kurzon posted:People hate on Alan Moore the same way people hate on God for letting bad things happen to people who don't deserve it. I don't think you understand why people hate on Alan Moore. At all.
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Aug 2, 2016 12:15
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:A good superhero story. In this case, it lacks the imagination and scale of a superhero story. And it stumbles on basic genre building blocks. The comic never establishes, for example, that Batman is a vigilante crime-fighter who dresses as a supernatural creature to frighten criminals. According to The Killing Joke, Batman is a strangely-dressed man that inexplicably commands the respect and reverence of police officers and criminals alike. Things like this make the comic feel vague and inconstant. The Killing Joke isn't about some characters people have never heard of, and it isn't supposed to be a Batman origin story. Why would it do any of those things? What would it have added to the story if it did?
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Aug 2, 2016 13:32
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notthegoatseguy posted:Why would it do any of those things? What would it have added to the story if it did? Adding superhero action to the story would have made it a superhero story. Anyway, I was incorrect: the comic takes 30 pages to establish that Batman is a vigilante crime-fighter. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Aug 2, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 13:52
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Adding superhero action to the story would have made it a superhero story. Dude, you are seriously autistic. You are implying that someone has found this book and is reading it without knowing the concepts of Batman and that it would impede them from understanding anything. Let's imagine there is someone who has managed to reach an independent reading age that doesn't know Batman. They hold in their hands a book that says "BATMAN: The Killing Joke". Then they open the book and soon realize there's this dude dressed in a costume. HEY, gently caress, THAT MUST BE THIS BATS GUY. How dumb do you think people are? Batman survives in cultural osmosis. In pretty much every major country with an entertainment industry, every child knows who the gently caress Batman is by the time they're 5 years old. You argue that it is an unsuccessful superhero comic because it doesn't have enough POWs and BOOMs and flying fists. It doesn't include an origin story for Batman, so that changes the context from a superhero story to a non-superhero comic? Counterpoint: You're a loving idiot. Like, seriously loving dumb. As in, I don't think there's any hope for your future. Do you work for DC?
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Aug 2, 2016 14:20
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