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pentyne posted:When it aired in the 90s the whole Earth fascism thing seemed like a fantasy of how quickly and easily it goes from "normal govt" to "fascist dictator rule" complete with tons of ships and soldiers perfectly willing to just mass kill tens of thousands of civilians and bombing definite civilian targets and uh....yeah. There's a post from jms from the usenet archive that I can't find right now, but basically someone posted that the rise of fascism seemed unbelievable to him and jms responded by saying that it seems ridiculous now (the 90s) because the conditions aren't right and we (then, them) can't imagine how it will happen because it's too removed from our (the 90s') everyday experience, but eventually the conditions for fascism's rise will come again and it will be familiar if anyone in that future time happens to watch those episodes.
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Aug 27, 2021 00:03
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:There's a post from jms from the usenet archive that I can't find right now, but basically someone posted that the rise of fascism seemed unbelievable to him and jms responded by saying that it seems ridiculous now (the 90s) because the conditions aren't right and we (then, them) can't imagine how it will happen because it's too removed from our (the 90s') everyday experience, but eventually the conditions for fascism's rise will come again and it will be familiar if anyone in that future time happens to watch those episodes. That's both right and wrong. The root causes of the rise of fascism in Germany were well known in the 1990s; I could go into them at great length, but what they ultimately boil down to is that the German people had everything taken from them and someone was able to put the blame for that on outsiders. The next fascist populist movement was always going to rise the same way. Where JMS was right was that nobody could predict how or where that movement would start. Lessons had been learned from the punitive sanctions of Versailles and with no nation being punished to that degree by another the path to a new Hitler appeared closed. What nobody foresaw was that end-stage capitalism would become so rapacious that a nation could be sufficiently impoverished to create the conditions for fascism without actually becoming poor by concentrating all the wealth in the hands of a tiny minority, and that that minority would use its wealth to gain control of the media to reassign the blame for its own actions.
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Aug 27, 2021 01:00
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Not exactly. The harsh terms were a big part of the rise of the Nazis, and especially the stories that the Nazis built their ideology on, but the Weimar Republic lasted lasted 15-ish years before Hitler took office. It took multiple recessions to give Nazis their fertile ground to grow, and the Nazis put a lot of effort into their rise. It wasn't inevitable by any means, which makes it seem ridiculous in retrospect when you look at a lot of particulars and what some people accepted or eagerly endorsed. Focusing on only Germany also gives fascism a sort of unique mystique that misses how other countries have developed similar movements and fascism can really take root just about anywhere. Having particularly hard times to give some kind of credibility to fascist grievances (and their conspiracy theories about the causes of hard times) and provides a restless population to recruit from, but it's not really the only source, and it's not necessarily going to be a 1 to 1 ratio of hard times and fascist strength. A lot of people had a mindset of "it couldn't happen here", and many (arguably for good reason?) still do, because the US government sure didn't break down, and it's hard to say how much closer it could've been pushed if things happened a bit differently. Either way, a lot of people focus on the worst things of fascism which come at the end, after having more completely seized power, rather than the beginning, which is practically tame by comparison.
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Aug 27, 2021 03:04
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SlothfulCobra posted:Not exactly. The harsh terms were a big part of the rise of the Nazis, and especially the stories that the Nazis built their ideology on, but the Weimar Republic lasted lasted 15-ish years before Hitler took office. It took multiple recessions to give Nazis their fertile ground to grow, and the Nazis put a lot of effort into their rise. It wasn't inevitable by any means, which makes it seem ridiculous in retrospect when you look at a lot of particulars and what some people accepted or eagerly endorsed. Yes, and it took over 30 years of Reaganomics and Thatcherism - and several major recessions - to give us Trump and Brexit. Neither they nor Hitler were inevitable, but nobody knew to stop Hitler and people today have happily accepted and eagerly endorsed the same lies that led to his rise. I'm also not saying that fascism is the inevitable end product of hard times, only that hard times are a prerequisite. The bedrock of fascism is always a dispossession narrative because it's an ideology that can only appeal to the dissatisfied.
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Aug 27, 2021 08:29
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Not that I disagree with your final sentence, but I'm not so sure about "hard times are a prerequisite", if only because the Trumpists aren't the dispossessed poor but rather the privileged and jealous. True that they're being fed a dispossession narrative but it's more in the sense of a threat to their fragile well-being from an insidious Other, and measured with criteria that are impossible or insane to quantify like "seeing a gender neutral bathroom" or "press 1 for English".
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Aug 27, 2021 11:41
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Data Graham posted:Not that I disagree with your final sentence, but I'm not so sure about "hard times are a prerequisite", if only because the Trumpists aren't the dispossessed poor but rather the privileged and jealous. True that they're being fed a dispossession narrative but it's more in the sense of a threat to their fragile well-being from an insidious Other, and measured with criteria that are impossible or insane to quantify like "seeing a gender neutral bathroom" or "press 1 for English". Don't let your media consumption ratio fool you. The rank and file of the trumpers are broke as gently caress as well. They're just not usually the ones traveling across the country to do protests. Because they can't afford it probably.
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Aug 27, 2021 15:11
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I mean there’s also demographic info on Trump voters showing most of them to be affluent
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Aug 27, 2021 17:00
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CainFortea posted:Don't let your media consumption ratio fool you. The rank and file of the trumpers are broke as gently caress as well. They're just not usually the ones traveling across the country to do protests. No they're not: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/11/13/white-trump-voters-are-richer-than-they-appear/
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Aug 27, 2021 17:03
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Data Graham posted:Not that I disagree with your final sentence, but I'm not so sure about "hard times are a prerequisite", if only because the Trumpists aren't the dispossessed poor but rather the privileged and jealous. True that they're being fed a dispossession narrative but it's more in the sense of a threat to their fragile well-being from an insidious Other, and measured with criteria that are impossible or insane to quantify like "seeing a gender neutral bathroom" or "press 1 for English". Hard times can be very relative. Like the recession did affect a lot of people, even if not equally. But also yeah, they do consider diversity and media cracking down on racism/sexism/actual sexual assault to be their own form of hardship. And to re-rail this train, I don't think the Earth in Babylon 5 was particularly facing any bad times. They may have gotten their poo poo wrecked in the Minbari war, but that was a while back, and the immediate postwar government was all about reconciliation. Clarke didn't have any bad times to blame on aliens, he just riled up anti-alien sentiment wherever he could find it. The Centauri Republic would probably fit more since it was in genuine decay when the Shadows came in, but they didn't actually rustle up any popular support. They may be racist, but they're old-fashioned aristocratic racists. Cartaggia may try creating a personal cult, but nobody actually believes in it.
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Aug 27, 2021 18:16
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Clarke isn't that popular either. The moment there's evidence for foul play several colonies revolt, a big portion of the army defects and Clarke has to use draconian measures to keep power.
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Aug 27, 2021 18:30
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Alhazred posted:No they're not: That study does not say what you think it does. The context was saying that trumpers are "privileged and jealous", in an economic way. And while a lot of that demographic studied in that article (which was a subset of the total mind you) says that people who are relatively affluent in their neighborhoods tend to vote republican, that doesn't mean they are all economically well off. Just because someone makes twice as much as their neighbor doesn't mean they aren't living paycheck to paycheck and with a retirement plan of "hope I just die quietly in my sleep". Which is how I define "broke"
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Aug 27, 2021 19:50
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SlothfulCobra posted:Hard times can be very relative. Like the recession did affect a lot of people, even if not equally. But also yeah, they do consider diversity and media cracking down on racism/sexism/actual sexual assault to be their own form of hardship. No need for actual bad times. All you need is to feed a narrative about how much worse things are now as compared to a notional past that never actually existed, stoke up resentment over the "loss" of something, and ride that into office. Best to direct the resentment at people with relatively little power, both because they're going to have a harder time actually hurting you and because it's a sure way to keep the support of people who enjoy tormenting and punishing those weaker than they are. Fascism's near-total detachment from reality is another one of its features. And that's part of how it can sustain itself: it can feed imaginary grievances and provide simple and satisfying answers to all your questions about why you aren't living the life you wanted, because it has no interest in things like truth or fairness. And in the process, it can feed things like narcissism and sociopathy while providing a strong sense of group identity, something which can otherwise be a challenge for narcissists and sociopaths.
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Aug 27, 2021 20:37
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Purple!!
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Aug 27, 2021 22:17
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CainFortea posted:Don't let your media consumption ratio fool you. The rank and file of the trumpers are broke as gently caress as well. They're just not usually the ones traveling across the country to do protests.
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Aug 27, 2021 22:34
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Babylon 5 rewatch:
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Aug 28, 2021 16:32
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I guess the blind watch thread just ran out of steam.
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Aug 28, 2021 16:38
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CainFortea posted:That study does not say what you think it does. I mean, affluent means you're not living paycheck to paycheck? It is a synonym for wealthy.
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Aug 28, 2021 20:15
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Maxwell Lord posted:I mean, affluent means you're not living paycheck to paycheck? It is a synonym for wealthy. Yes. I didn't say affluent now did I? I said "relatively". As in, relative to others. In comparison. As in, compared to other people.
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Aug 28, 2021 21:04
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Babylon 5 rewatch: Those minbari uniforms the Babylon crew gets has to be the ugliest piece of design ever. Especially those vests they added.
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Sep 5, 2021 10:46
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Alhazred posted:Clarke isn't that popular either. The moment there's evidence for foul play several colonies revolt, a big portion of the army defects and Clarke has to use draconian measures to keep power. I always got the impression the colonies were unhappy, and what happened with Clarke simply give them the opening to break off.
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Sep 5, 2021 13:03
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JMS has just launched a new comic called Telepaths. It's not B5-related, but it's looking like it will cover a lot of the same ground as the development of the Psi-Corps. Six issues to start with, so if you want to trade wait it will probably be out in April or May.
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Sep 5, 2021 14:07
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Small White Dragon posted:I always got the impression the colonies were unhappy, and what happened with Clarke simply give them the opening to break off. Yeah, Mars was in a constant state of rebellion during the whole show.
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Sep 5, 2021 14:13
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Jedit posted:It's not B5-related, but it's looking like it will cover a lot of the same ground So, like everything else JMS has done.
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Sep 5, 2021 16:26
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After I hooked my mom in with some season one DVDs of Babylon 5 I got from a used book store, we've determined that the cheapest option to keep watching (without subscribing to a new streaming service) is getting the complete DVD box set, which is about $100. Is there anything wrong with any particular set of DVDs? The TV we have is an old giant CRT, so not being HD isn't an issue.
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Sep 10, 2021 01:38
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I think all of the DVDs are the same. However, you may want to look into streaming on Vudu. Looks like it's $50 and I think it's supposed to be the remastered version. Vudu is a free app with no ongoing subscription costs besides what you purchase.
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Sep 10, 2021 02:12
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SlothfulCobra posted:After I hooked my mom in with some season one DVDs of Babylon 5 I got from a used book store, we've determined that the cheapest option to keep watching (without subscribing to a new streaming service) is getting the complete DVD box set, which is about $100. Yeah, the DVDs have all sorts of color issues and aspect ratio weirdness since the CGI was rendered in 4:3 but the DVDs were released in widescreen iirc. The recent remaster is much better even if you don’t care about the HD. That being said, I think I watched through the DVD version like 4 times before the remaster came out, so it’s not unwatchable. I would hesitate to pay $100 for them though.
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Sep 10, 2021 02:16
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Honestly if you want the DVDs I'll send you mine for free. I haven't even owned a machine with an optical drive in it for like a decade, they're just collecting dust and will never be used again.
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Sep 10, 2021 02:19
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Yea, the dvds were kinda goofy compared to what is available digitally. That being said, free dvds from Fromage is hard to argue with. 
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Sep 10, 2021 03:28
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Grand Fromage posted:Honestly if you want the DVDs I'll send you mine for free. I haven't even owned a machine with an optical drive in it for like a decade, they're just collecting dust and will never be used again. Thanks for the offer. Could you send me an email at my Gmail? It's just my username.
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Sep 10, 2021 04:44
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Babylon 5 rewatch: Apparently a side effect of becoming a telepath is long and luxurious hair.
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Sep 11, 2021 10:08
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Alhazred posted:Babylon 5 rewatch: Apparently a side effect of becoming a telepath is long and luxurious hair. No wonder the Narn want telepaths.
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Sep 11, 2021 10:28
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Jedit posted:No wonder the Narn want telepaths. I'm pretty sure G'Kar owns at least a couple of human hair wigs.
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Sep 11, 2021 11:52
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Alhazred posted:I'm pretty sure G'Kar owns at least a couple of human hair
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Sep 11, 2021 15:27
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Babylon 5 rewatch: Doctor Franklin's self righteousness reaches critical mass in Secret of the Soul as he condemns a race to go extinct because their ancestors committed genocide. Also, my face when Rebo and Zooty shows up: Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Sep 11, 2021 |
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Sep 11, 2021 19:11
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I had no idea there was a B5 thread. I recently re-watched it, I was a little disappointed that they didn't remaster/re-do the CGI, but I understand that that would probably have been extremely expensive, otherwise it looks really good. Season 1-4 are as great as I remember, season 5 was a bit of a mess though, not that good.
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Sep 12, 2021 07:49
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Alhazred posted:Babylon 5 rewatch: Doctor Franklin's self righteousness reaches critical mass in Secret of the Soul as he condemns a race to go extinct because their ancestors committed genocide. Also, my face when Rebo and Zooty shows up: Maddeningly hard to take (compounded by my distaste for Gaiman when he tries to get a bit too precious, like the bit with Zooty's translator at the end) but the incomprehensibility of the humor is wholly by design. Imagine going back to the 1950s and explaining that in the future, for a a couple of years people were going to lose their poo poo over a picture of a cat that desires a cheeseburger. "I don't understand, why does the cat talk like that? Is it a China-man?" JMS also had Things to say on Usenet about how, for example, men tended to be more into Three Stooges than women. usenet celeb 1992 fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Sep 12, 2021 |
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Sep 12, 2021 15:46
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usenet celeb 1992 posted:Maddeningly hard to take (compounded by my distaste for Gaiman when he tries to get a bit too precious, like the bit with Zooty's translator at the end) but the incomprehensibility of the humor is wholly by design. Imagine going back to the 1950s and explaining that in the future, for a a couple of years people were going to lose their poo poo over a picture of a cat that desires a cheeseburger. "I don't understand, why does the cat talk like that? Is it a China-man?" That meme is older than you think it is:  My main objection is that Penn and Teller are unfunny libertarian assholes.
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Sep 12, 2021 15:58
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They were a lot less objectionable when that episode first aired.
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Sep 12, 2021 16:01
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They had a funny thing going as "bad boys of magic" until you realize that Penn really was like that 24/7. Their best trick was when they fooled themselves into not noticing that they shot nearly back-to-back episodes of Bullshit where they mocked creationism for its logical fallacies and fake experts, and then mocked 'climate alarmism' by bringing on fake experts to indulge in logical fallacies. Shocking, really, how so many in that early web contrarian/libertarian/"new atheist" movement turned out garden variety fascists. (Not necessarily P&T themselves, but you see that same sort of thoughtless reflexive contrarianism in the early stages of the IDW-to-alt right pipeline.) usenet celeb 1992 fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Sep 12, 2021 |
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Sep 12, 2021 19:39
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Babylon 5 rewatch:
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Sep 12, 2021 19:47
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