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My favorite part of the whole series was how it was the Centauri who ended up starting a horribly destructive war upon the Narn and not the other way around. When the show started out, the Narn were basically your stereotypical sci-fi warrior race. G'kar was always being aggressive and ready to physically fight, he always went around armed. G'kar dresses like an early modern mercenary or soldier, if it weren't for the mask, he could pass for the Sheriff of Nottingham. The Narn even had red eyes and were more alien-looking than the Centauri. It would've made a whole lot of "sense" narratively for them to be the ones to go and start a war rather than the Centauri. It's what would've happened in Star Trek. But then it all gets flipped around, where before G'kar was the villain who everybody begrudgingly tolerated, now that position belongs to Londo. It gives a lot more moral complexity and makes things more interesting than it would've been the other way around. It's not from individual's willingness to punch or stab that wars get started. I've been meaning to rewatch this series again sometime, but there's not a lot of legitimate ways to do that right now. It's not on any streaming service.
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Feb 11, 2017 23:02
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I'm not sure if the ending is all that happy. Certainly hopeful though. And then from the look of Earth, the series is pretty pessimistic about the way we're headed in general.
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Feb 25, 2017 19:30
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For the longest time, I really resented the relative moral simplicity of the conflict with the shadows, especially in comparison to how complex the rest of the show was. The shadows really seemed like plain ol' bad guys ruining things for little reason other than that's what they do. Kicking out the Vorlons at the end of it added a little to the complexity of it all, but it didn't quite make up for things.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:14
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Actually the word of god on that one was that the point of it was to make a backup of Talia's mind in case her sleeper agent personality got activated. That way she could be restored to her former self. Her koshback guarantee, if you will.
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Feb 28, 2017 02:08
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I remember Nightwatch seeming really ham-handed at the time, but now if anything they're only ham-handed because they're too subtle, especially considering how far gone Earth was already supposed to be.
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Mar 3, 2017 16:16
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Babylon 5 is such a mix of things. The show is sometimes shallow and twee and other times deep and meaningful. There's genuine drama and genuinely bad acting. Sometimes simplistic morals, and sometimes elaborate and complex showings of genuine conflicts between differing philosophies. It's weird how much it shines through all of the bad bits. The military bits sometimes feel like the writers and actors act like the military is just some scaled up version of football. It makes me keep thinking that a scene is going to end with "AND WE'RE GONNA WIN THAT GAME FOR THE HOME TEAM!"
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Mar 5, 2017 01:12
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I get the sense though that Delenn was going through some pretty heavy weeabooing for humanity before the shadow war gave her something bigger to focus on, and it definitely didn't help that she seemed to be romantically pursuing Sinclair, and then when he got replaced she just went and jumped his replacement's bones. (and through it all Lennier does that weird Nice Guy thing. How are minbari-minbari romances supposed to work?) I don't think any of the romantic relationships of the show really worked for me. There was still a lot of allusions to inter-species sex, but never any sort of "legitimate" relationships besides Delenn and Sheridan. In fact, there's not really that many alien romances in general. The Centauri are the only ones that they show having relationships (but man, how they do show it).
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Mar 6, 2017 05:26
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Yeah, the series doesn't really have a good answer as to what to do about psychics. Clearly, nobody is comfortable with the what psychics can do, so they have to be regulated, but the psycorps are also a problem, and there's not...really...a viable alternative presented. Then there's the whole thing with eugenics where certain abilities literally can't be developed without selective breeding...it's all weird. The show also really suffers from not feeling free to build up a stock of secondary characters, so things very quickly start feeling empty on this station full of people when the main characters start splitting up. After Talia left, there's no more psychics on the station. Dr. Franklin treats all patients himself, but still somehow has time to act as part of the command staff. I keep expecting this Zack guy to get offed somehow, because I'm rewatching and have zero memory of him after the Night Watch.
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Mar 7, 2017 19:23
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I think there's a very real problem with the show sometimes having Sorkin-y moments where the main characters have The Right Opinion while anyone opposing them is just a dumb idiot, and then mixing them in with moments wehere there's genuinely morally complex moments, and then not really making it clear when they're doing one or the other.
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Mar 8, 2017 02:20
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It's weird how basically every race has a military that integrates both genders, but they still keep using the phrase "women and children" for harmless civilians.
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Mar 12, 2017 20:31
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He's pretty lucky he became some kind of messianic figure with mostly unquestioned rule, because writing up some kind of Babylon 5 constitution and holding elections on the station could've been a nightmare.
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Apr 26, 2017 20:01
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I think the biggest thing to me about Babylon 5 is just how big and real the space feels, like it's more than just a sequence of sound stages. I've been watching Deep Space 9 recently, and even though there are many parallels and two small business owners are main characters, DS9 never really feels anywhere near as much of a lived-in space as Babylon 5. It's like they took all the money a normal sci-fi show sunk into every planet of the day and put it back into the main set. And the world feels so consistent in comparison, you're never left wondering where things fit in with the station's economy or hierarchy because it's all just a big place where a lot of people live and do business. None of the awkward messing around with the fact that Star Trek's premise is a post-scarcity society but all interesting plots are driven by scarcity in one way or another, or the question of where the Federation's communistic no-currency economy, the Ferengi standardized-yet-non-specific measures of sci fi metal currency economy, and the ???? Bajoran economy hook together. Farmer Crack-rear end posted:The facet of Babylon 5 that wouldn't fly today is that at heart it's a really sappy show. That's probably true, especially with the slow start and the lack of drama or action in the beginning, but that all was still necessary to set the bedrock for the rest of the story. Londo's descent and redemption and G'kar's ascent and revelation wouldn't have worked at all if their interactions had high stakes from the beginning. Shows these days really try to amp up the drama and action with a hefty side of sex appeal, but what I'm always eager for is some well-done comedy. G'kar and Londo's sniping at eachother is what pulled me in to begin with.
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Jul 15, 2017 01:08
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I think the Pakmara got only one episode where anything about their species and culture got described, but I swear, that little tentacle-face was everywhere. One of the most impressive alien designs too.
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Feb 23, 2018 16:46
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There's a lot of good media out there that ended up getting mostly abandoned by whatever organization wound up sitting on the rights for decades. It's not a particularly unique occurrence. Unless somebody important in Warner Brothers decides to put some effort into putting it out again or somebody buys off the rights, it'll stay in its little hole until it eventually enters public domain in about 150 years.
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May 4, 2018 19:58
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I feel like Babylon 5's story has been told, and we don't need it to be redone or revamped. I'd rather have new TV series drawing inspiration from it. There haven't been any shows about alien politics for a while.
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May 19, 2018 00:08
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I've been watching through DS9, and Gol Dukat is one of my favorite characters. All that weird moral complexity, becoming one of the most sympathetic Cardassians in between moments where he just does something objectively horrible. I just got to the Pah Wraith cult episode, and...drat. What's most disturbing is how real it all is.
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Jun 29, 2018 04:41
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One of the things I really like about B5 over DS9 is that DS9 has a bad habit of slipping into too formal of a tone, whereas B5 sounds more like people talking naturally. It can be kinda fun though, that all the Klingon scenes play out like Macbeth, and B5 can't produce something like this
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Jun 29, 2018 05:35
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I've also gotta really respect DS9 for trying to tackle religion head-on, even if its overall stance on religion is pretty muddled. B5 featured religion, and even hinted at Vorlon interference in religion and used a bunch of prophecies and weird rituals, but it never really touched on religion in terms that were really relatable to the real-world mundacity of the religious experience in the way that DS9 did. Anybody can follow big huge prophecies and get swept away when all the crazy supernatural events are actually happening, but the whole regularly going to church, listening to sermons, and seeking spiritual guidance thing is what the bedrock of what modern religion is built on. And of course on the far side of the spectrum, there's Stargate, which literally goes militant atheist on most alien religions and doesn't really bother with balancing things out. SlothfulCobra fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jun 29, 2018 |
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Jun 29, 2018 21:34
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That was such a unique subversion of what you'd expect. Instead of showing how everybody can overcome their differences no problem and work together, it's all about showing just what it means to want somebody dead more than anything else. And on the other side of the coin, what it means to be hated so much. It's such a unique thing to be given sympathetic views to both sides of such a dire conflict.
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Jul 5, 2018 17:44
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Action Jacktion posted:JMS posted his memories of Harlan Ellison (too long to post here): I don't know if it's so much unrealistic as in impossible as it is just unrealistic as in people stopped caring about the moon. It's probably possible to put down some buildings up there and even send people to stay there for years at a time, but there isn't really interest for it so far as I know. Everybody's just speculating about getting a human being to Mars. Sci Fi where humanity's out there living in space just kinda implicitly assumes that there's a good reason to stay on some other celestial body, but so far as I know, nobody's really found one yet.
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Jul 7, 2018 00:59
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The idea of there being physical embodiments/champions of abstract forces such as chaos and order whose conflict embroils the whole galaxy is such an old school cosmic sci fi thing. It's like the guardians of time in Doctor Who, or Marvel's cosmic pantheon, or something that Star Trek would find on some random planet filled with "higher beings".
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Jul 18, 2018 16:53
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I'd expect G'Kar to get along more with Romulans.
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Jul 26, 2018 06:40
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After watching DS9, none of B5's sexual misconduct compares with Dukat.
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Jul 29, 2018 15:56
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I think the main problem with a prequel is that there wouldn't be a central venue for all the diplomacy. I would like another show in a similar spirit though. Also on my sci-fi wishlist is a show with proper lighting and not these poorly-lit rooms with improbable bright blue lights highlighting shadows.
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Jul 29, 2018 22:38
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McSpanky posted:Marcus and Lennier: proto-incels or incel precursors? Not so much involuntarily celibate as voluntarily only being open to loving one woman who was not having it. Although I suppose most of the incel movement confuses an unwillingness put some effort into dating with being shut out by the rest of the human race, so maybe. Although in Lennier's case, it doesn't seem like there were all that many Minbari women to choose from. Not a lot of fish in that sea. I have no idea how a traditional Minbari/Minbari romance is supposed to go.
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Jul 30, 2018 16:53
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I feel like Babylon 5 really perfectly bridges the old-fashioned sci fi with new sci fi, and the seams really show. Old sci fi was all about cheesy pontificating on the nature of abstract concepts that only half made sense, and weird gimmicky alien civilizations that were often undone by their own hubris. The idea of aliens on like a higher plane of existence or what have you is also a more old fashioned sci fi kinda thing. And then modern sci fi is all about a more down-to-earth pragmatic approach to things, where instead of being merely third-party observers, humanity is directly involved and the viewer is supposed to be emotionally invested in the drama, while setting details aren't just one-episode features or recurring guest roles, but ongoing worldbuilding that sticks around. So you have these actors who kinda talk like they're from the 50s while going about these dramatic issues because they're rapidly switching between drama, stilted philosophy, and lighthearted comedy. You have these ongoing wars that end in a bizarre hegelian dialogue on chaos vs order and an ancient alien who takes a weird patriarchal role towards all sentient life in the galaxy. There's this menagerie of aliens who occasionally have weird gimmicks to be introspective towards human nature, but they stick around forever (unless they're a praying mantis), and you have the brilliant Narn/Centauri situation. It makes B5 seem chintzy and cheesy at times, but it also gives a feeling of depth and expansiveness that modern sci fi tends to lack from its tighter focus and insistence on being serious most of the time.
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Aug 5, 2018 17:02
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The acting seems stilted at times, but it's hard to tell how much of that is writing and directing as well as the actor's fault. Hell, there's even a degree of generational separation where the medium of television has changed a lot since then (while it was harkening very strongly towards 60s and 70s shows as well). The top of my issues with Boxleitner is his pronunciation of the word "bear". Even now, it haunts me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oStG9DI0q3g
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Aug 5, 2018 21:54
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The cruel thing about the entertainment industry is that there are more often than not, lots of people who cluster around willing to underbid their fellow workers in the hopes of one day hitting the big time, and the bulk of them never do and just waste their lives being taken advantage of. You see similar patterns with college sports and drug dealers.
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Aug 16, 2018 22:36
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It's plausible for some kind of underground to get built up like that, but it seems like it'd take more than 2 or 3 years to happen. Makes Garibaldi seem kinda poo poo at his job if he just started out totally ignoring a whole region of the station. kingturnip posted:It ties into the overall theme of the show - the unending fight between order and chaos. Although it's a little confused, politically, since fascism is all about strict order and control and Earth is always getting 'corrupted' by the chaos faction. I don't think fascism is exactly based on control so much as "control over the people" is a thinly veiled excuse for wild arbitrary acts of violence. Fascist regimes tend to be a mess organizationally with competing jurisdictions and underlings fighting with each other. We didn't really see much of that aside from the fact that Clark set up a secondary military organization within the military that tried to stage a coup.
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Aug 20, 2018 15:28
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From the poking around I've done with Star Trek, it seems like there was a real decline in music from the original series to Next Generation to DS9. I don't know if that's cheaper cost of musical talent in the 60s, shifted priority to effects, or what, but the original series is musically vibrant and complex with themes and musical effects and weird sounds to evoke the weird future, while TNG was somewhat more simplistic but compensated with full orchestral arrangements. And then by the time of DS9, it still was trying to use the sort of orchestral arrangements that TNG had going on, but the music felt blander and less ambitious. I think B5's music does a drat sight better than DS9, but I'd have to go back and watch more to make sure.
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Aug 20, 2018 21:58
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Every time Vir opens his mouth, all I can hear is Booster from the Buzz Lightyear show, which makes his maturation towards the later part of the show all the more jarring.
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Sep 10, 2018 04:53
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I don't think the show ever went into detail on any big programs to remove Clark's influence, cronies, and the remnants of Nightwatch from Earth's governmental institutions. It seems like maybe they're just rushing the re-integration of the elements of Earth's government after the civil war like how America did with its civil war. In a couple decades people will be erecting statues of Clark to do anti-alien rallies around.
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Sep 19, 2018 06:25
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Anything you see in Babylon 5 has a point and a purpose. Unlike other shows, no plotlines are dropped or ignored throughout the entire run. Save for some weird first-season standalone stuff like the guy hunting the Holy Grail. I think Londo's wife is one of the big dropped threads of the show. I don't think she ever shows up after he divorces the other two. It must be hard to get women to shave their heads for these sci-fi parts too. Seems like that'd really hinder their chances at other roles for a while.
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Oct 27, 2018 18:12
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Well if you're going to have a hyperspace dimension, you might as well make it weird and crazy instead of just normal space but fast. My favorite version of that is Star Control, where they totally mix around the galaxy into their own map.
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Nov 8, 2018 02:57
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Come to think of it, has modern sci fi drifted away from the idea of psychic powers? They were all over the place in older material, and some works like Childhood's End and Warhammer 40k even went with the idea of them as the next step of human evolution, but now it seems like mainly they're only in vintage franchises, and mostly telekinesis instead of ESP or telepathy. Are people no longer interested in that sort of concept, or was interest in the first place promoted by a bunch of high-profile flimflam artists that have been run out of business?
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Nov 8, 2018 03:51
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It's easy to see a pattern in Star Trek where TNG kept becoming more focused on the boiling international relations around the galaxy, so a show in a fixed point on the border region makes sense...but that's also Babylon 5's whole schtick, international relations in space. They both set up some kind of weird religious arc featuring the main character that both didn't really go anywhere, they both had the outbreak of war among "traditional" powers that "nontraditional" powers interfered with/hijacked, and they both had bits where there is a coup on earth and separatist movements throughout humanity although those plots went very different places. Their command staffs share a number of similarities, angry chief of security, doctor, military officer in charge of the station, and Ivonava and Jadzia share a number of traits. Babylon 5 also borrows heavily from a lot of other sci-fi aesthetically, and the human uniforms with their simple geometric designs and block colors look a lot like Starfleet uniforms. Even the Cardassian/Bajoran relationship bares some shallow resemblance to Centauri/Narn. But then again, there's a lot that doesn't line up if you try to work out the timing of who copied who. DS9 only flirts with some of the concepts that Babylon 5 makes its centerpiece. Babylon 5 is very clearly going for a totally different thing with their set design and alien design. Aliens are more anatomically different from humans than they are aesthetically and sets are more detailed and expansive. Babylon 5 has bars and shops, but it never sinks into the realities of small business ownership like Quark does. Most importantly: DS9 resolutely maintains a lot of Star Trek mainstays. It still does something like half of its episodes as planet-of-the-day with the characters reacting to whatever wacky new culture they've never heard of until that moment, whereas Babylon 5 maintains its continuity more. Nothing is ever "new", it's always been there, just the characters haven't noticed them yet. They are all proactive through a persistent persistent world, and no matter how one-off an episode is, it is forming extra lore that will still be there in the background, and they'd never do something like drop the space Dalai Lama off on some uncharted planet never to be seen again.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:32
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I just finished season two, and I have to say that I’m pretty impressed with the cg overall for something from 94/95, especially given how ambitious it must have been to do a show all in cg back then. I kinda turn off a lot of my judging how good the effects are with this show, but I thought it was odd that they went through the whole effort of establishing the station center and then never used it again. The CGI all has that look where it was the days before texturing so nothing even comes close to looking real. I do respect that they use their choice of media to do all kinds of things that wouldn't work with miniatures like spinning sections, it just doesn't really look...good.
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Nov 25, 2018 16:04
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I’m at about the same place in my watch, and as an adult in 2018 I find the show’s depiction of the slide into fascism as thoughtful and well-done. Who knows what I would have thought at the time though: I recently rewatched the Ds9 where they go back in time and team up with Dick Miller to liberate the poor-people concentration camps, and while I found it timely and thoughtful now, as a pampered white 90s teen I thought it was hyperbolic and preachy. It seems so dumb and cheesy and then you find out that the rise of actual fascism is super dumb and filled with cheesy obvious lies. The real world seems so badly written at times.
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Nov 30, 2018 14:39
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I can respect both wanting bad things to happen to bad people and being grossed out by a head on a pike because decapitated heads are loving gross and maybe seeing somebody that was walking and talking a little bit ago dismantled because of me would maybe give me pause. 'Specially if you're a big old softy like Vir. Still a funny scene though.
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Dec 7, 2018 05:48
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ThingOne posted:I'll admit I was wrong about Zack, even if it did take him way too long to figure out that maybe the black armband wearing informant network might not be on the up-and-up. To a degree, a lot of people really really hope for dopes like Zack, who have just been misled but still have good hearts and will know what point is crossing the line and will defect. And not just people who will sunk-cost fallacy their way all the way down to the bottom and steadily learn to internalize the propaganda they're fed.
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Dec 20, 2018 17:35
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