|
I always really liked that Babylon 5's Earth didn't just miraculously became another unified planet, but that the government is clearly only a more obliging version of the UN, with the individual nations still pursuing their own interests.
|
#
¿
Sep 15, 2016 14:28
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 7, 2024 11:53 |
|
|
One of the things that really impressed throughout multiple rewatches is how well Sheridan's characterization actually comes through. He often called a carrier soldier with little to no interest or experience in politics, whose claim to fame was the destruction of the Black Star with some innovative tactic while on a disadvantage. In science fiction, so many characters are called brilliant strategists without ever actually showing that on screen, but Sheridan really pulls of a tonne usual maneuvers through clever thinking throughout the series. What comes to mind is the destruction of the first shadow ship, the escape from Jupiter and the attack on Mars. Same with politics really not being his strong suit. This one is more of an arc, but you can really see how his approach changes overt he series, but you can also tell he never really grows to like it.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 23, 2016 19:26
|
|
|
Yeah, i think there is a line about how Lyta is the first person ever who actually went to Vorlon space and came out of it alive. Excluding the Minbari, you really get the impression that the Vorlons don't really care all that much about the younger races, it's really just about proofing their point right as well.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 27, 2016 14:40
|
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:A lot of the trouble with the telepath colony is that they're a cult and act like a cult, and cults are very distressing and confusing to be outside of I think the biggest problem the dissonance between the way they are the presented and they way they actually act. Basically, they come across as terrible incompetent, but I don't get the feeling that was intentional.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 2, 2016 04:02
|
|
|
Despite the Telepath plot being pretty rough, everything that deals with the aftermath of the Earth Civil War and the Centauri is absolutely fantastic and arguably better than the Shadow War. It is so rare that a story actually has its heroes deal with the political fallout of their actions and the way Babylon 5 handles it is nothing short of amazing.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 2, 2016 04:28
|
|
|
Wait, when was that ever stated? The Centauri have telepath, doesn't that mean they were definitely visited by the Vorlons just like any other race?
|
|
#
¿
Nov 2, 2016 18:26
|
|
|
It's really a shame that the three major alien races stayed so shallow throughout the series. I mean, you get a general impression how their society works, but it rarely goes into detail. Like, I would have loved to see how Centauri live outside the nobility actually looks or what Narn do when they don't hate on the Centauri. But the worst are probably the Minbari, who get a major story arc dedicated to them, and their society still feels incredible artificial. The Civil War, which got teased, but never really explained, has a resolution, which is that the Workers Caste gets more seats, something I didn't even know was something they wanted or that there was problem with that in Minbari society in the first place, because I don't think we actually get a pov character for that. And the whole faux Vulcan vibe is only really something I got from Deleen and Lenir, other Minbari always came a cross a lot less monk like in their behavior. Also, it always bugged me that the whole cast system doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, the Religious Caste apparently had the means to build an entire fleet of warships and the ability to command them, so the whole fighting/praying/building thing couldn't have been that strict.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 5, 2017 21:12
|
|
|
Baka-nin posted:Yeah I was hoping when I saw twenty+ replies in this thread that it was just a slap fight. I really liked Vir, he was one of my favourites. I liked the subplot where he's been using his connections to smuggle Narns out of the warzone. IIRC, the backstory shows that they organization that became EarthGov (the UN?) was pretty authoritative from the get go. They didn't leave most countries a lot of choice in joining up. Also, you have stuff like the Mars independence movement and Psycorps.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 18, 2017 22:12
|
|
|
Honestly, there a so few shows that actually have the heroes deal with the political fallout of their actions, especially genre shows like Babylon 5. I am a huge fan of space politics and the fact that Babylon 5 prominently deals with them is the main reason I love the show so much. And I competently agree that they telepath colony should have been featured more on the show. It's really weird too. After that episodes, the fact that there even is a group of free telepath on the station and that Franklin is one of the major person in the underground railway is completly dropped from the show. I mean, once Babylon 5 declares independence and it becomes clear that PsyCorps is a major factor in Clark's regime, you figure the colony would be come a bigger plot point, not vanish without a trace. Or when they start to hire telepath to fight the shadow ships. Essentially, the existence of the free telepath is basically retconed, since Byron's group is treated as competently new. Which is really a shame, since the underground railroad was such a better idea, both in concept and execution. As for the portrayal of the sides as a grey or black and white conflict, I just finished season 4 on my current rewatch and something that always bugs me is the way the show portraits the loyal Earthforce officers when contrasted with the way Clark's regime. They make it pretty clear that there are horrible war crimes happening, but at the same time, they have way to many officers going on about how they just don't think the military should dictate policy. Which is a giant load of bullshit! That extends to characters like Lochley. Maybe that is just me, but if you stand idle by while your government commits war crime after war crime, hiding behind protocol or even actively defending that regime against those who want to stop it, you are at least complicit in every atrocity that could have been prevented. e X fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jul 10, 2017 |
|
#
¿
Jul 10, 2017 20:33
|
|
|
If it was Michael O'Hare's departure that derailed the whole Babylon prime idea, than it really was a blessing in disguise, because the whole thing sounds horribly convoluted in my ears. Babylon 5's politics were its strongest part and as it sounds, a lot of that would have been lost in favor of time travel shenanigans and more mystic stuff, that was always pretty much hit and miss.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 13, 2017 13:53
|
|
|
The Audio Guide to Babylon 5? It's two woman and a man, with occasional guest spots by a another guy. They are all a little bit older, as in, they were college age when the show first aired, some of them were actually involved in the original Lurke's Guide and they all went to film school, so they actually talk a lot about the directors of the series, which is pretty unusual for a podcast about any nerd product. e X fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Jul 26, 2017 |
|
#
¿
Jul 26, 2017 16:32
|
|
|
TraderStav posted:Wrapped up Season 1 last night. Seems like everything is in place for the real ride now. Yeah, Babylon was remarkably predictable in some ways.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 23, 2019 13:48
|
|
|
TraderStav posted:But it's not like they're outside in the elements. Needing a campfire seems really strange on a (presumably) climate controlled space station. I guess the down below could be colder than the rest but just seems too much on the nose that they'd use some magical space orb to generate heat and huddle. It's about visual signifier.The go to image for homelessness for an American audience is a bunch of people in ragtag clothes around a fire in a rusty barrel. So if you want to get across the message that these are homeless people, you'll use that, even if it doesn't necessarily makes a lot of sense in a scifi setting.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 23, 2019 14:40
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:The only one that's really ever plot-relevant is Green Sector, where the diplomat quarters are kept. How dare do you ignore Grey 17 is Missing!
|
|
#
¿
Sep 23, 2019 16:13
|
|
|
Iymarra posted:Y'all forgot the intro Giants in the playground NOW GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR GALAXY The actual best intro.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 24, 2019 09:11
|
|
|
Thanks to this thread I am on a rewatch right now and I got a question: Do they ever explain why Station security is not run by Earth Force? At least to me, it always came across like Garibaldi being fundamentally a civilian, with his "rank" being Chief and him not being part of the usual chain of command. He mentioned being a former ground pounder, but it doesn't seem like he is part of the military as the show is taking place, asides from being a commanding officer of Babylon 5. Like Ivanova seem to be responsible for the entire shipping and commerce on the station, which seem to me like much more of an area they might hand to a civilian third party , but something as security sensitive as the internal defense of the station, they handed to some shady guy Sinclair knew
e X fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Sep 27, 2019 |
|
#
¿
Sep 27, 2019 16:00
|
|
|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:You got the wrong impression because station security is EarthForce and so is Garibaldi. Jedit posted:S4/5: Ivanova is promoted to Admiral by the time of Sleeping in Light. Okay, thanks, that makes sense. I mean, besides that I'd still think it is weird that security isn't handled by EarthForce personal directly when everything else is, but I guess you could come up with a reasonable explanation for that (in universe). And I know that most creators tend to play it fast an loose with ranks when it comes to their fictional military, it just always bugged me because Garibaldi is so un-Officer like, but him being an NCO makes sense.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 27, 2019 23:48
|
|
|
It's not even all the telepaths, it is basically just Byron. Also the wasted potential and a weird lack of continuity. I mean, this isn't the first time they have a colony of rogue telepath on the station, but for some reason, this time the relationship is very antagonistic, for reasons that felt very forced. Sheridans sudden mistreatment of Lyta also comes out of nowhere. Franklin, who actually ran the prior railroad, has no interaction with them at all this time, which also doesn't seem right.
e X fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Dec 2, 2019 |
|
#
¿
Dec 2, 2019 14:54
|
|
|
Hey, I don't know if anybody is familiar with him but SfDebris is a science fiction reviewer who is also doing Bablyon 5 and has been for at least the last 10 years. Recently he covered Interludes and Examinations and while giving his analyses of Kosh's final experience, he mentions that the Vorlons not only didn't fight the Shadows due to their gentleman's agreement, but that they also wouldn't be match in a straight up military conflict and actually need the alliance of the younger races to stand a chance. And I am not quite sure that actually true. Like, I can't remember if we ever get actual information about the relative military strength of the two races, but I am pretty sure we never get a definite statement like that and the impression I always got from later episodes was always that they were two evenly matched foes, with the ways they engaged in their conflict totally being about proofing their respective ideologies right. I can't check the episode atm, but I appreciate if someone could clarify that for me.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 23, 2021 11:39
|
|
|
ultrafilter posted:Londo's guards were able to wipe out a couple Shadows pretty easily, but B5's entire security team was overwhelmed by one Vorlon. That doesn't really say much about how the two races would fare in ship-to-ship combat, but it's consistent with the idea that the Vorlons are fewer in number but much stronger than the Shadows. Iirc, the Centauri were second only to the Minbari when it came to tech, so much so that the Narns became a major power on the back of derelicts Centauritech. So their weapons are probably much more powerful than whatever EarthForce had access to.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 24, 2021 21:02
|
|
|
Burning_Monk posted:SFDebris is good you goons. SFDebris is very good and his analyses is normally spot on, hence why I ask about his statement about the Vorlons and the Shadows.He also has seen the series previously, so it's not like its a blind review of random episdoes. I think he even watched it aired iirc. e X fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Apr 27, 2021 |
|
#
¿
Apr 27, 2021 10:48
|
|
|
|
|
#
¿
Apr 30, 2021 09:42
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:Do Rebo and Zooty count? I would say no, since they aren't playing themselves and they are basically making the opposite point, making up a bunch of pop culture that is super strange to us.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 5, 2021 19:12
|
|
|
Kibayasu posted:Pale Moonlight is an episode about how small compromises in the name of a “greater good” will inevitably lead to larger and larger compromises until you’ve forgotten what that greater good even was. It ends with a man desperately trying to convince himself that the ends justify the means and failing. That's the way I always read it. There is a poo poo tone of television that narratively frames the terrible poo poo its heroes are doing as justified and at least to me, this episode sticks out because it doesn't do that. It is probably one of my favorite episodes of any series, simply because it is that rare to me. Doesn't change the fact that the series doesn't do it for a lot of the other hosed up poo poo Sisko does and that it has zero consequences for him personally, but this episodes by itself is a pretty great contrast to the typical "Hard men making hard choices".
|
|
#
¿
Aug 11, 2021 23:44
|
|
|
New watchers going from "This is an alright scifi show from the '90" to "Holy poo poo" is never not amazing 
|
|
#
¿
Nov 23, 2021 23:39
|
|
|
I don't want to add needlessly to the conversation in the blind watch thread, but, brought on by the tone question from Tom Guycot , I do find es interesting how much B5 almost feels like a serialized modern day prestige drama, even though its not. I think that's relevant to the tone question, because it results in many of the episodes having a very standard three act structure, which means you often get some amount of (positive) emotional closure at the end, while the modern format allows for episodes, or even seasons, that are just entirely bleak without any catharsis at all. It's a product of hindsight of course, but it is utterly fascinating how the show clearly has a well defined overarching arc, that is clearly the focus of the story, but the Zeitgeist just wasn't there yet and though it's still told through the conventional episode format, with the occasional multiparter, even though it really strains against it.It's an interesting comparison to DS9, which fits much more conformable into the episodic format.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 20, 2023 20:06
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:Oh man they're *really* not going to like Lochley if they get that far. Did we ever know if the whole "you left we were stuck behind and closed our ears because it was all we could do" was a planned part or was it just making do with having to replace Ivonava and cramming someone in? Well, Lochley is pretty badly executed, mostly because pussyfoot around what exactly she did and because they throw here in with the rest of the cast. But other than that, I actually find B5 take on comeuppance and recon reconciliation pretty good, because it is pretty realistic, as there is no real way to "punish" the defeated party in a war in the classical way. Justice is an impossibility on such a large scale. G'Kar entire arc is about how the Narn have to let go of their hatred, not because the Centauri deserve forgiveness, but for their own sake. e X fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Mar 21, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Mar 21, 2023 13:55
|
|
|
I started another rewatch, spurt on by the recent activity in this thread, and man, this time around I really appreciate Season 1. I am on episode 9 now and so far it has been super solid, much better than I remembered. It also reminded me again how much more I like Sinclair. He is very much a diplomat who always tries to find a diplomatic solution before he resorts to force, and he almost never pulled rank on Garibaldi or Ivanova, which is in a stark contrasts to John "Nuke'em" Sheridan who basically ran Babylon 5 like a military dictatorship. Which makes total sense from a story perspective, he is a a captain in charge of a military installation and Commanded a starship before, but it is also pretty interesting, that when Babylon 5 declared independence from Earth due to Clark becoming a dictator, it also basically became a Junta. And no point did they ask any of the quarter million people on board what they actually thought. I think also Sinclair would have had much more success when running the Interstellar Alliance. e X fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Mar 22, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Mar 22, 2023 00:59
|
|
|
It's kinda great that while Sinclair tries actually tries to solve it, Garibaldi is on the ground to beat up some exploited workers . The episode is fun, but classiest as all hell.
e X fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Mar 22, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Mar 22, 2023 19:20
|
|
|
I absolutely love that all the bad guys in Babylon 5 always look like they are about to storm Nakatomi Plaza. Just peak early nighties aesthetic, before pop culture had decided on the definitive look of the new henchmen.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 26, 2023 14:39
|
|
|
I was going to write something about it too, but I realized that a lot of things about the show are due to it's rather limited cast. We never really get a good view into the inner workings of any of the major races outside of our POV characters. Like, for the Centauri, Londo and Vir are already against the Narn war and occupation. So with Refa and Carthagia gone, there is really no one else to show us what the so called comeuppance for the Centauri could look like, or better, the death of Carthagia must serve as symbol for a general changing of the guard on Centauri Prime. We can assume that there was a more severe political struggle behind the scenes, but sadly the show can't really show that. I also really liked what boofhead said. Even without the Shadows, Londo's promise is the only way for Narn's freedom at this moment. ALso, lol, denazification was never real and it stopped the moment the Cold War became a thing. e X fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Apr 1, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Apr 1, 2023 14:42
|
|
|
On the other hand, he is not wrong, the later half of season four is incredible rushed and they are running through plot points at a ridiculous pace that does actually makes some of them hit less than they should.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 2, 2023 14:33
|
|
|
Y'all have to stop dunking on Tom now, since he likes Neroon, which is the objectively correct opinion.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 3, 2023 13:01
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 7, 2024 11:53 |
|
|
I agree with the general sentiment here. The way the human characters react to the war really doesn't seem to be t in line with the fact that they were facing a total annihilation. Like, even if there weren't too many causalities, because the Minbari went straight for Earth, you'd think that the overwhelming might of the Minbari would leave more of a physiological issue, at least among the military cast members. But the whole way the war is presented throughout the show is a little silly and contradictory. The initial idea seems to be that the Minbari steamrolled past every colony and outpost to go straight for Earth and that Sheridan was basically the only one who ever manged to destroy an Minbari starship. However we do get scenes like the bunker scene mentioned or when Clark send some black ops troops to assassinate Delene and Sherdian, they discuss how they fought and tortured Minbari during the war, which makes only sense if there where several ground engagements. I also find the idea that the Minbari only ever lost a single ship pretty stupid. e X fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Apr 4, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Apr 4, 2023 19:03
|
|