Why don't they support equalism instead of feminism?

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > General Bullshit > Why don't they support equalism instead of feminism?

Luxury Communism: Aug 22, 2015; by Lowtax

Moridin920 posted:

gotta be case by case maybe bc obviously you can't just throw a dress on and say 'ima woman now' and go to women's prison

Why shouldn't you be able to? Aren't we told that no one would pretend to be transgender in bad faith?

# ? Aug 15, 2016 23:56

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# ? May 3, 2024 10:52

Aschlafly: Jan 5, 2004; I identify as smart.
(But that doesn't make it so...)

8-Bit Scholar posted:

Yes and your post

Suggested otherwise, which is proven false by that article, the literal purpose I linked it for.

OK, we have a reading comprehension issue. There is no contradiction between "brain structure is not a perfect predictor of gender" and "brain structure is correlated with gender", nor between that and "the brains of trans men tend to resemble the brains of women". Here's the abstract of the paper itself:

quote:

Sex/gender differences in the brain are of high social interest because their presence is typically assumed to prove that humans belong to two distinct categories not only in terms of their genitalia, and thus justify differential treatment of males and females. Here we show that, although there are sex/gender differences in brain and behavior, humans and human brains are comprised of unique �mosaics� of features, some more common in females compared with males, some more common in males compared with females, and some common in both females and males. Our results demonstrate that regardless of the cause of observed sex/gender differences in brain and behavior (nature or nurture), human brains cannot be categorized into two distinct classes: male brain/female brain.

In other words, there are features that are more common in one sex or the other, but none of them can be used in isolation to determine sex. (Curiously, this is pretty similar to the whole "gender is a spectrum" thing people keep saying) This doesn't preclude some men having brains that appear "more female" or vice versa. Not that I know anything about how to read a scientific paper, it's not like I'm a biologist or anything like that

quote:

Didn't you literally claim it was anti-gay to say that homosexuality doesn't exist in nature?

No, I pointed out that it's an argument anti-gay people make.

quote:

If you're saying that I'm equating unnatural to bad, then I won't necessarily deny that, but more to the point I'm saying that nature--observable science--supports that homosexuality is perfectly fine and a normal behavior that other animals perform.

which is exactly the problem with your position: today we conceive of homosexuality as a state of being, not an act.

quote:

This countered the scientific argument that homosexuality is unnatural because animals only have sex to reproduce, which is now known to be false. Again, data supports this, science supports this. The argument is sound and no morality or higher power is invoked.

You're still missing the point entirely, which is that unnatural != bad.

quote:

So, you don't have an answer? You are the one who is saying we should eliminate gender-based-on-sex entirely and make gender something entirely at-will, so I feel like this should be something you'd want to consider.

I haven't made this claim but you don't seem very good at reading or very interested in understanding.

# ? Aug 15, 2016 23:58

Aschlafly: Jan 5, 2004; I identify as smart.
(But that doesn't make it so...)

awesome new avatar and title, yesssss

jimmies: rustled!

# ? Aug 15, 2016 23:58

somethingawful bf: Jun 17, 2005

Maybe we could install those TSA body scanners at the entrance to all restrooms that also scans women's purses and spits out 30% of the money it detects to also fix the wage gap

# ? Aug 15, 2016 23:59

polio king: Jun 19, 2004

dad gay. so what posted:

who gives a poo poo you loving human being

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Aug 16, 2016 00:14

8-Bit Scholar: Jan 23, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

Aschlafly posted:

OK, we have a reading comprehension issue. There is no contradiction between "brain structure is not a perfect predictor of gender" and "brain structure is correlated with gender", nor between that and "the brains of trans men tend to resemble the brains of women". Here's the abstract of the paper itself:

In other words, there are features that are more common in one sex or the other, but none of them can be used in isolation to determine sex. (Curiously, this is pretty similar to the whole "gender is a spectrum" thing people keep saying) This doesn't preclude some men having brains that appear "more female" or vice versa. Not that I know anything about how to read a scientific paper, it's not like I'm a biologist or anything like that

Okay, for somebody who wants to lecture me on reading comprehension, you're not exactly demonstrating a lot of it here yourself. For starters, the fact was that you cannot use the brain to determine gender--so a man with a woman's brain or vice versa is scientifically wrong. That's the be all and end all, and it doesn't even seem clear if you could or should even designate some traits as male or female since they seem to interchange. I brought that forward to refute your earlier point and twice now I have to re-emphasize that it has done just that, that's not a piece of evidence that can support your theory.

What this should tell you then is that sex is entirely based upon the reproductive organs of the individual in question. These biological truths are self evident, and there's a lot of data that discusses the biological differences between male and female bodies--you can see this best at the levels of high caliber athlete. Whether you identify as male or female is irrelevant--your sex is your sex, determined by birth. Your gender role is then entirely based upon what culture you are born into. Gender roles are fluid--sex (and interchangeably gender) is not.

That's the takeaway. Science and biology do not support the validity of transgenderism--at the very least, the evidence does not support that you are "born" transgendered. The behavior runs contrary to how human biology works.

So then, the issue of gender fluidity is that it is a societal theory, not a civil rights frontier. It's a notion that if one can choose a gender role, one should be allowed to choose from any gender role, regardless of sex. This is a more fruitful line of inquiry, but the narrative that trans people are just ordinary persons who want to be accepted for who they are is not supported by science, and the acts taken to try to validate trans persons--the bathroom laws, federal funding held ransom for schools--are to the detriment of non-trans persons, who are the vast majority.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 00:50

Luxury Communism: Aug 22, 2015; by Lowtax

Testosterone and estrogen are powerful mind-altering drugs and it's trivial to demonstrate their impact on behavior in experiment.

8-Bit Scholar posted:

So then, the issue of gender fluidity is that it is a societal theory, not a civil rights frontier. It's a notion that if one can choose a gender role, one should be allowed to choose from any gender role, regardless of sex. This is a more fruitful line of inquiry, but the narrative that trans people are just ordinary persons who want to be accepted for who they are is not supported by science, and the acts taken to try to validate trans persons--the bathroom laws, federal funding held ransom for schools--are to the detriment of non-trans persons, who are the vast majority.

I would argue that people should be free to mix-and-match as they please, but there are good reasons that gender roles are prescribed that are intimately related to social and reproductive success.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 00:57

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Does Moridin have a special word filter that adds honking or is he just that annoying?

Just like I think it was a mistake to include transpeople in LGB and Feminism, I think that including "genderqueer" and "genderfluid" people into the trans movement weakens that cause. If a man wants to live as a woman, I can accept that. I don't think he will be, but I get it and can support that. This third gender thing is different entirely and isn't even logically consistent with conventional transgender thought.

Gender either exists or it doesn't. If gender exists, than people transitioning from one gender to another makes sense. If it doesn't than there is no reason why transpeople can't just live with the gender that corresponds with their sex and act and dress as they like.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 01:14

Ork of Fiction: Jul 22, 2013

Adventure Pigeon posted:

Are there any good men's rights groups? I don't think feminism can claim to speak for men, since men are generally discouraged from taking leadership roles in feminist groups. That's fine, women should advocate for themselves, but the same is true for men. Unfortunately, every men's rights group seems to be either "women, feminism, and False Rape Accusations are destroying the fabric of our society" to groups that kowtow hard to feminism to avoid looking like the former. I just want a group that addresses domestic violence, mental health, criminal justice, and other serious mens issues without being bad and shameful.

The bathroom issue seems more like mountains out of molehills. There've always been men going into women's restrooms and vice versa for various reasons. If problems begin to crop up that aren't addressed by current laws, then something should be done.

The ACLU.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 01:18

Aschlafly: Jan 5, 2004; I identify as smart.
(But that doesn't make it so...)

8-Bit Scholar posted:

Okay, for somebody who wants to lecture me on reading comprehension, you're not exactly demonstrating a lot of it here yourself. For starters, the fact was that you cannot use the brain to determine gender--so a man with a woman's brain or vice versa is scientifically wrong.

Which isn't what I said: what I said was "IIRC there's some weak evidence suggesting that trans people's brains tend to resemble those of their "preferred" gender, don't quote me on that though because it's pretty fuzzy". It's not that there are "male brains" and "female brains". It's that brains can be binned into "male" and "female", with a reasonable level of accuracy, depending on their structure, and some people's brains lend themselves to being binned into the opposite category. The article you linked doesn't forbid this; rather the opposite, since it points out a number of brain features that are more common in men than in women and vice versa. To make an obvious analogy, there's probably no singular facial "feature" that pinpoints whether someone is male or female, but that doesn't mean faces can't be used to predict gender with a reasonable level of accuracy (dating would be pretty hard otherwise) or that people can't resemble the opposite gender.

quote:

What this should tell you then is that sex is entirely based upon the reproductive organs of the individual in question.

I'm not sure what you think this is a response to.

quote:

These biological truths are self evident, and there's a lot of data that discusses the biological differences between male and female bodies--you can see this best at the levels of high caliber athlete. Whether you identify as male or female is irrelevant--your sex is your sex, determined by birth. Your gender role is then entirely based upon what culture you are born into. Gender roles are fluid--sex (and interchangeably gender) is not.

That's the takeaway. Science and biology do not support the validity of transgenderism--at the very least, the evidence does not support that you are "born" transgendered. The behavior runs contrary to how human biology works.

ah yes, biotruths, we've come full circle. My advice: spend some time actually studying biology and you'll learn how silly and naive your opinions sound.

quote:

So then, the issue of gender fluidity is that it is a societal theory, not a civil rights frontier. It's a notion that if one can choose a gender role, one should be allowed to choose from any gender role, regardless of sex. This is a more fruitful line of inquiry, but the narrative that trans people are just ordinary persons who want to be accepted for who they are is not supported by science, and the acts taken to try to validate trans persons--the bathroom laws, federal funding held ransom for schools--are to the detriment of non-trans persons, who are the vast majority.

It's like you're not even trying to hide the fact that you're using "science says..." as a thin veneer for your personal prejudices. "societal theory", your use of "validate", the "validity of transgenderism", the idea that non-trans people are somehow "hurt" by advocating for trans rights, etc. stand somewhere between "laughably wrong" and "word salad". Try harder.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 01:57

8-Bit Scholar: Jan 23, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

Aschlafly posted:

Try harder.

Y'know you could just concede the point. Telling me to go educate myself while offering no actual rebuttal to my point sort of says it all, doesn't it? If you wanna cite :biotruths:

as a cop out, at least use the emote.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:10

Applewhite: Aug 16, 2014; by vyelkin; Nap Ghost

You fools know nothing of gender :smug:

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:14

Aschlafly: Jan 5, 2004; I identify as smart.
(But that doesn't make it so...)

There's nothing to rebut dude, your position basically amounts to "sex is binary, therefore gender is binary and transgenderism isn't 'valid' (whatever the gently caress that means)". You're stringing together words whose meanings you barely understand in a half-assed attempt to justify your feelings on the matter. If transgenderism just makes you feel uncomfortable because it's "weird" or "unnatural" then just own up to it. No need to pretend your feelings have a basis in fact.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:18

dad gay. so what: Feb 18, 2003; by FactsAreUseless

Applewhite posted:

You fools know nothing of gender

this is the best poster in "gbs"

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:19

Orkin Mang: Nov 1, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

im looking for the downlow on gender

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:20

dad gay. so what: Feb 18, 2003; by FactsAreUseless

love applewhite i want to understand his method of locomotion

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:21

Luxury Communism: Aug 22, 2015; by Lowtax

The "downlow" is that gender was invented to keep women in the cottages but is also something you can be born with, even if you're the wrong sex.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:22

dad gay. so what: Feb 18, 2003; by FactsAreUseless

i think i might hate everone

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:24

Orkin Mang: Nov 1, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Luxury Communism posted:

The "downlow" is that gender was invented to keep women in the cottages but is also something you can be born with, even if you're the wrong sex.

but what can i do with it from a marketing standpoint. im thinking coasters with ur new gender on them, magix 8balls u shake up and it tells u ur new gender for theat day instead of dread prophecies. theres a whole market here nobodys making bank on. im thinking womens beer

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:25

Good Canadian Boy: May 12, 2013

It's funny that this thread started off making GBS threads on feminism and now it has turned into the same debate that radical feminists and liberal feminists have.

At the end of the day it's interesting though to see how transgendered people couple with others as a MtF transgendered person that identifies as lesbian IN MOST CASES will not have sex with another MtF because deep down they know they are two men having homo sex.

One issue is the fact that the gender you are socialized as has a lot to do with how you turn out, so a lot of radical feminists don't want transgendered women in their bathrooms because they know that statistically that makes them more vulnerable to violence and removes their "safe space".

My stance agrees with that of radical feminists that transgendered people are mentally ill and seek to transition due to societal norms of gender. They contradict themselves because mostly they feel that aspects of femininity make them a woman despite the fact that the sexism inherit in that is the same sexism that makes people tell them they aren't women to begin with. If you take away things that make people "feel" like they're a woman or a man (hair, clothes, sexist personality traits) then they are just male and female and straight/gay or bi.

Disclaimer, I am not a feminist!

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:26

Orkin Mang: Nov 1, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Good Canadian Boy posted:

It's funny that this thread started off making GBS threads on feminism and now it has turned into the same debate that radical feminists and liberal feminists have.

At the end of the day it's interesting though to see how transgendered people couple with others as a MtF transgendered person that identifies as lesbian IN MOST CASES will not have sex with another MtF because deep down they know they are two men having homo sex.

One issue is the fact that the gender you are socialized as has a lot to do with how you turn out, so a lot of radical feminists don't want transgendered women in their bathrooms because they know that statistically that makes them more vulnerable to violence and removes their "safe space".

My stance agrees with that of radical feminists that transgendered people are mentally ill and seek to transition due to societal norms of gender. They contradict themselves because mostly they feel that aspects of femininity make them a woman despite the fact that the sexism inherit in that is the same sexism that makes people tell them they aren't women to begin with. If you take away things that make people "feel" like they're a woman or a man (hair, clothes, sexist personality traits) then they are just male and female and straight/gay or bi.

Disclaimer, I am not a feminist!

if we just called it dressups thered be no problem

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:28

8-Bit Scholar: Jan 23, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

Aschlafly posted:

There's nothing to rebut dude, your position basically amounts to "sex is binary, therefore gender is binary".

Yes, more or less.

I'm saying that there's no biological basis in it. It is not something human beings do naturally, change genders. There is no biological basis for the transgender theory, and even human brains do not indicate sex/gender in a clear way. That's the point I'm driving home. Do you agree or disagree?

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:29

Good Canadian Boy: May 12, 2013

Orkin Mang posted:

if we just called it dressups thered be no problem

We already did that but people didn't feel validated enough.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:28

Rutibex: Sep 9, 2001; by Fluffdaddy

Aschlafly posted:

sex is binary, therefore gender is binary

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:30

Orkin Mang: Nov 1, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Good Canadian Boy posted:

We already did that but people didn't feel validated enough.

i listened to a debate on the radio between a feminist and a trans person and the feminist was saying what ursaying and the trans person was like, oh yeah and whats so bad about being feminine? lol

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:29

Luxury Communism: Aug 22, 2015; by Lowtax

transvestites own and futa is life

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:35

8-Bit Scholar: Jan 23, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

Luxury Communism posted:

transvestites own and futa is life

tits are life. :colbert:

rear end is hometown.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:38

Orkin Mang: Nov 1, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

a dude wacking off up onto his own tits. breathaking

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:38

Aschlafly: Jan 5, 2004; I identify as smart.
(But that doesn't make it so...)

8-Bit Scholar posted:

Yes, more or less.

I'm saying that there's no biological basis in it.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. Is there a "biological basis in" wearing clothes? wearing eyeglasses? eating artificial food? political institutions? Basically this sounds like code for "whatever seems 'natural' to me".

quote:

It is not something human beings do naturally, change genders. There is no biological basis for the transgender theory,

What is "the transgender theory"? Humans do lots of things that aren't "natural". So what?

quote:

and even human brains do not indicate sex/gender in a clear way. That's the point I'm driving home. Do you agree or disagree?

Most brains exist somewhere along a male/female feature "continuum". This rather seems to support the idea that gender isn't binary.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:38

somethingawful bf: Jun 17, 2005

it's interesting to me how a thread about feminism veered towards trans peeing and pooping

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:43

Good Canadian Boy: May 12, 2013

Hot Take: Transgendered people will continually be others until it becomes acceptable for males and females to take on whatever masculine or feminine traits they want at which point the whole premise of transgendered people will cease to exist and all that will be left is people multilating their bodies.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:43

Aschlafly: Jan 5, 2004; I identify as smart.
(But that doesn't make it so...)

^ There's an argument to be made that the gender binary is really what's at issue, and that if trans people's wishes to be treated as somewhere further along the gender spectrum are respected, they'll be less likely to seek reassignment surgery.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:45

Good Canadian Boy: May 12, 2013

Ya, that's what I just said

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:48

Ork of Fiction: Jul 22, 2013

Heres the deal, buddy. I'm a stupid, hosed up piece of poo poo, and so is everyone else. So, if you're extra hosed up for whatever reason, then keep it to yourself because I don't have time for my problems let alone yours.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:48

8-Bit Scholar: Jan 23, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

Aschlafly posted:

Most brains exist somewhere along a male/female feature "continuum". This rather seems to support the idea that gender isn't binary.

No it doesn't. Full stop, you are referring to gender as one's biological sex or are you referring to the role one is expected to play in society based upon their sex? There's really no actual debate whether sex is binary, there's boys and girls, and sometimes poo poo gets a little hosed up in birth but birth defects are greatly lessened in the first world. The point is, sex is binary. I don't think you deny this.

I'm saying that at no point in the life span of any human being will a man ever transform into a woman. So a man, at this stage in human existence, cannot actually become a woman--not via surgery either. The surgical operation gives the appearance of the opposite gender, but the effect can never be complete. A transwoman can never bear children, a transman cannot inseminate (to my knowledge). Essentially, our "treatment" for a person who suffers from gender dysphoria is to allow them to have extremely expensive surgical mutilations done to them to make them appear as women.

Now consider that there are currently prepubescent children who are taking hormones and being readied to also undergo this surgery. Consider for a second just the possibility that we are not "curing" or "treating" a "woman trapped in a man's body" but we are instead taking a person who is confused, troubled, or simply mentally ill, and performing gruesome, irreversible surgical operations upon them to make them appear as though they are something they are not. Consider for a second that if there is even a remote possibility that this is the case--and that we are simply allowing deluded people to destroy their bodies--then shouldn't somebody object? At some point, shouldn't we say that this is ridiculous, borderline insane?

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:49

Applewhite: Aug 16, 2014; by vyelkin; Nap Ghost

Someday you'll be able to step into a tube like in Elysium and change your sex in seconds. I hope I live to see that day.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:51

Aschlafly: Jan 5, 2004; I identify as smart.
(But that doesn't make it so...)

We're pretty much going in circles at this point. Sex is binary (mostly), gender isn't. If a person is born male but identifies as female and would rather be treated as such, I don't see the problem: for all I know they might very well have a brain closer to the "female" side of things. Whether a trans man "really is" a man or not is an academic question. The obvious answer is "he sort of is and sort of isn't": he can't get a girl pregnant and probably can't bench as much as the average man, and hormone therapy and surgery can't magically give him a Y chromosome, but he might be male in all other respects. Who cares?

Transitioning, whether by surgery or hormone replacement, seems to me like the sort of thing that should wait until puberty is over, but I'm not a medical expert or psychologist.

# ? Aug 16, 2016 02:59

somethingawful bf: Jun 17, 2005

Can you guys stay on topic please and talk more about the bowel movements of trans people. please

# ? Aug 16, 2016 03:00

Secular Humanist: Mar 1, 2016; by Smythe

8-Bit Scholar posted:

No it doesn't. Full stop, you are referring to gender as one's biological sex or are you referring to the role one is expected to play in society based upon their sex? There's really no actual debate whether sex is binary, there's boys and girls, and sometimes poo poo gets a little hosed up in birth but birth defects are greatly lessened in the first world. The point is, sex is binary. I don't think you deny this.

I'm saying that at no point in the life span of any human being will a man ever transform into a woman. So a man, at this stage in human existence, cannot actually become a woman--not via surgery either. The surgical operation gives the appearance of the opposite gender, but the effect can never be complete. A transwoman can never bear children, a transman cannot inseminate (to my knowledge). Essentially, our "treatment" for a person who suffers from gender dysphoria is to allow them to have extremely expensive surgical mutilations done to them to make them appear as women.

Now consider that there are currently prepubescent children who are taking hormones and being readied to also undergo this surgery. Consider for a second just the possibility that we are not "curing" or "treating" a "woman trapped in a man's body" but we are instead taking a person who is confused, troubled, or simply mentally ill, and performing gruesome, irreversible surgical operations upon them to make them appear as though they are something they are not. Consider for a second that if there is even a remote possibility that this is the case--and that we are simply allowing deluded people to destroy their bodies--then shouldn't somebody object? At some point, shouldn't we say that this is ridiculous, borderline insane?

Maybe if you weren't so full of HATE you wouldn't be so TRANSPHOBIC and you'd stop OPPRESSING the transgendered, who are badly in need of help provided their political sympathies align with my own!

# ? Aug 16, 2016 03:01

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# ? May 3, 2024 10:52

somethingawful bf: Jun 17, 2005

I hope one day everybody can get the professional help and therapy they need

# ? Aug 16, 2016 03:04

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