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I'm just really into Signal because I loving hated Lark and I'm really glad they didn't make it Duke's actual codename.
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Jan 12, 2018 16:07
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Lmao at Gordan not having a mustache and that idiot haircut in Superheavy.
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Jan 13, 2018 03:12
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Mr Hootington posted:Lmao at Gordan not having a mustache and that idiot haircut in Superheavy. I think Barbara upon seeing him is just like. "Grow it back."
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Jan 13, 2018 04:11
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purple death ray posted:I like Knightfall pretty well. It is definitely longer than it needs to be, and a lot of the tie ins are pretty unnecessary, but what crossover isn't? It seems to be collected into 3 Omnibus' Knightfall, Knightquest, Knights End. Has anyone read the whole thing? I'm a completionist and don't want to buy 3 huge books if its not that great.
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Jan 14, 2018 09:49
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It's not great, but it's not bad. Death Ray nails it. I've read almost every issue, but some of the issues are the first comics I've ever read, so, I'm biased. It's almost better just to get a handful of issues from it. Knightfall and Knightquest can be cherry picked, but Knightsend is one continuous story.
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Jan 14, 2018 10:09
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Knightsend drags in the second half.
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Jan 14, 2018 21:08
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Ok finished Snyder's run a couple days ago and mulled over things. The Good: Harper, Duke, Dick, Damian, Tim, Stephanie, Harvey, Gordon, and even Jason where all good when thwy poped up. Snyder (and Tynion) write these characters well. Court of Owls is cool and a bourgeoisie League of Assasins is interesting. Gordon's Batman suit was really good and it is a shame more wasn't done with it. Death of the Family was a pretty good story even though it felt like a poor man's Arkham Asylum. The Bad: Lincoln March. Snyder's Bruce Wayne isn't great. Lincoln March. End Game is loving awful. Lincoln March. The Mr. Bloom arc went on for too long. Lincoln March. The change to Mr Freeze. Lincoln March.
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Jan 19, 2018 01:58
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Damian? Who's Damian? I'm not sure Snyder knows who you're talking about. Also Lincoln March is absolutely great in...his very first appearance. Court/Night of the Owls is incredible. It's every single subsequent Lincoln March appearance, especially Batman Eternal, that fucks it up. ed: Also like Bruce is basically the only part of Superheavy that's good, and his is the only storyline Snyder actually gives a poo poo about.
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Jan 19, 2018 02:04
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What's so bad about Endgame? What would you have liked to see in it?
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Jan 19, 2018 02:24
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Space Fish posted:What's so bad about Endgame? What would you have liked to see in it? I just didn't like it. The only cool part was the Batman Family and Rogues fighting together.
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Jan 19, 2018 02:26
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Quixk question: How long has Mad Hatter been a pedophile in the comics? Because yeesh that Anarky arc in Detective was bad and gross.
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Jan 19, 2018 03:50
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Hey I just consumed some entertaining fiction written by one Scott Lobdell, ol' Scotty-L. A comic book? Hell no, they're all mother loving terrible! I speak, of course, of Happy Death Day, the 2017 horror film...classic? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiPD9X43knU In case you don't know what it is, it's basically "What if Groundhog Day were a horror movie?" in the way that Edge of Tomorrow/Live. Die. Repeat./All You Need is Kill is "What if Groundhog Day were a sci-fi action movie?" It's basically a movie all about a scream queen (played by Jessica Rothe) reliving the same day over and over (which she dies at the end of) trying to figure out who her killer is. I wouldn't necessarily call the movie good, but it's definitely super fun and enjoyable, and the main character is actually pretty compellingly played and overall acted. Eh, I guess I would call the movie "good", but with the asterisk of "it has problems and Scott Lobdell gets parts of his stink all over it in a really noticeable way, even if the movie as a whole still more or less succeeds despite those issues". The movie has, like Groundhog Day, a throughline of the main character realizing how lovely of a person they are and resolving to change themselves for the better over its length. I really liked it, issues nonwithstanding. Problems: - Ol' Scotty-L still can't write "young person" dialog to save his loving life that reads as current over embarrassingly badly out of touch. This is easily the worst part of the movie, and there's numerous sequences and scenes that feel like Lobdell turned on Mean Girls and just copied dialog from that word-for-word. He also seems to confuse "college" with "high school" since there's poo poo people pull in this movie that reads as stuff like, 14-year-olds would pull or feel funny. - Still really can't stress enough how bizarre and flat some sequences are because Scott really has no idea how young people talk and just approximates it via the most stereotypical of pop culture touchstones. - He also tries for some Woke Lobdell dialog and it's so so bad. Our main at one point says, and I'm transcribing this verbatim, "Love is love! Now go get you a piece of man-rear end!" Um, what? - Lobdell's weird misogyny comes into play at some points, but it's hard to tell if it's straight-up actual, N52 Starfire-esque misogyny, or just pure loving Scott Lobdell-rear end laziness of relying on the "queen bitch" stereotype and women calling each other "slut" and "whore" as insults because he doesn't know how young people talk. - Some of the "laugh lines" are pretty not-great. - It's a PG-13 film that feels like it should be "R" solely so people can swear believably. Lobdell clearly has problems coming up with PG-13-level synonyms for expletives he wants to use, so parts of the dialog feel really rough, sanitized, and overall off. High Points: - Because the movie is centered around a female protagonist, Lobdell is forced to write her well and more or less steps up to the plate. He can't rely on his (terrible) amoral shithead alpha male stereotypes because this movie has no room for it. - Because the movie is centered around a female protagonist who's also kind of the absolute worst person ever, Lobdell completely fuckin' nails her arc over the course of the movie. The one thing Lobdell is good at writing is utterly reprehensible people, and her being utterly reprehensible and (more or less) believably becoming more actualized as the movie progresses actually pretty much works! - He writes a fairly compelling male love interest for the main even if parts of their relationship's progression feel sort of jerky and not as thought through as possible. - There's intentional moments of comedy that are actually pretty funny. There's a montage in the middle of the movie that's actually pretty clever, and there's a moment with a disco ball that's genuinely hilarious because it's so absurdist and insane. - The ending is fun even if parts of it are predictable. Basically, if you really like horror movies, and you want to support the expanding "movies that riff off Groundhog Day" subgenre (and you should, because more movies should be like Groundhog Day, it's a Perfect Conceit), and most importantly you want to consume fiction written by Scott Lobdell that isn't somehow inexplicably the worst loving thing ever loving written because holy gently caress Scott Lobdell is terrible, give Happy Death Day a watch! It's pretty enjoyable. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Jan 19, 2018 |
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Jan 19, 2018 03:52
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Mr Hootington posted:Quixk question: How long has Mad Hatter been a pedophile in the comics? Because yeesh that Anarky arc in Detective was bad and gross. I always had the feeling in that it was an unstated thing which could be seen either way back in the day. Like it wasn't text but it could possibly be subtext if you squinted a bit. So for it to be overtly done I imagine it would be done recently.
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Jan 19, 2018 03:58
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I mean Alice in Wonderland was literally written by a pedophile and the Mad Hatter, and the Unbirthday sequences in particular, is that pedophilia subtext at its most prominent and least disguised. So, uh.
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Jan 19, 2018 04:05
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Mr Hootington posted:Quixk question: How long has Mad Hatter been a pedophile in the comics? Because yeesh that Anarky arc in Detective was bad and gross. I believe it was Arkham Asylum that introduced the idea. I'm pretty sure AA was never canon, so why that's the one thing people took from it is beyond me. Well, I guess that if they'd taken Clayface as disease it would have been a extremely radical reinterpretation that would have made for a very divergent character evolution, but frankly it's the more interesting option.
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Jan 19, 2018 04:52
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Hey I just consumed some entertaining fiction written by one Scott Lobdell, ol' Scotty-L. Should have called it Six Feet Under Groundhog Day
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Jan 19, 2018 05:36
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catlord posted:I believe it was Arkham Asylum that introduced the idea. I'm pretty sure AA was never canon, so why that's the one thing people took from it is beyond me. Well, I guess that if they'd taken Clayface as disease it would have been a extremely radical reinterpretation that would have made for a very divergent character evolution, but frankly it's the more interesting option. I am pretty sure he was not a pedophile in AA just deranged and obsessive.
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Jan 20, 2018 19:32
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Read The Signal #1. When did Duke develop a power? Was that in the All-Star Batman backups?
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Jan 21, 2018 11:47
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Teenage Fansub posted:Read The Signal #1. When did Duke develop a power? Was that in the All-Star Batman backups? Yup.
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Jan 21, 2018 12:24
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Okay, another quick question from the not-to-good-with-comics-guy. Working on getting my hands on and getting through the various recommendations I've gotten from the thread, but out of curiosity is there an easy way to find the chronological order of release that isn't Wikipedia? Like, is Batman Year One Batman #1 to #50, Killing Joke Batman #200 to #202 and so on, or is it like Year One ends at #30 and the next one is Batman Black Mask #1? If I do get into things, I want to know the right place to continue on from instead of jumping around from story to story. And how does this play into this New 52 business?
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Jan 21, 2018 17:23
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OscarDiggs posted:Okay, another quick question from the not-to-good-with-comics-guy. Working on getting my hands on and getting through the various recommendations I've gotten from the thread, but out of curiosity is there an easy way to find the chronological order of release that isn't Wikipedia? Year One was Batman 404-407 but usually the "big deal" stories weren't just issues of Batman but special miniseries, like DKR was DKR 1-4 and Killing Joke was just a single issue release. The chronological reading order is a huge hosed up mess that's basically divided into Post Crisis (with his origin as told in Year One) and New 52 (where his origin is told in Zero Year) but a lot of stuff in Rebirth sort of suggests that both timelines happened. I was working on a reading order a while back using this website - http://www.therealbatmanchronologyproject.com/ This guy gets way deeper than most people are going to need to do but I find it pretty fascinating. Heres some highlights in order from the list I compiled: Year One - Batman 404-407 One Night in Gotham City - Man of Steel #3 (from 1986, post-Crisis Superman and Batman's first meeting) Batman & the Monster Men Batman & the Mad Monk (both self contained miniseries by Matt Wagner) The Man Who Laughs (single issue release, first encounter with the Joker) Gothic - Legends of the Dark Knight 6-10 Blades - Legends of the Dark Knight 32-34 Going Sane - Legends of the Dark Knight 65-68 The Long Halloween (13 issue miniseries) This is where it gets nasty because Jeph Loeb being Jeph Loeb puts every Bat-villain he can think of in this story even though it's by all logic less than a year or two after Year One. There's no good post-Crisis origin story for Poison Ivy, Scarecrow, Riddler, Mad Hatter, or the Penguin but all of them appear in Long Halloween. I personally ignore most of these guys since they barely contribute anything to the story anyway. Dark Victory (another 13 issue miniseries) The sequel to Long Halloween muddles things even worse with most of the same villains and a few new ones. I only recommend this story because it's my favorite Dick Grayson origin story. The Gauntlet - A one shot, Batman Chronicles: The Gauntlet, from 1997. Bruce puts Dick through a challenge to see if he's ready to hit the streets as Robin. Robin: Year One - 4 issue miniseries Batgirl: Year One - 4 issue miniseries, works great as a direct followup to Robin: Year One. Avaliable as a single trade release now. As you can see almost all of this takes place in self-contained miniseries or special issues. When you get past everyone's origin stories and into the big crossovers like Knightfall, Contagion, or No Man's Land, it's spread out across dozens of different comics. Unfortunately there's just so much goddamn Batman comics it's almost impossible to read everything in order the first time. purple death ray fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Jan 21, 2018 |
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Jan 21, 2018 17:53
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Teenage Fansub posted:Read The Signal #1. When did Duke develop a power? Was that in the All-Star Batman backups? Mostly in Dark Nights: The Casting, actually.
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Jan 21, 2018 18:06
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OscarDiggs posted:Okay, another quick question from the not-to-good-with-comics-guy. Working on getting my hands on and getting through the various recommendations I've gotten from the thread, but out of curiosity is there an easy way to find the chronological order of release that isn't Wikipedia? Don't read comics chronologically, you'll be reading hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of Golden and Silver Age Batman stories before you get to the stuff people typically talk about. The way comics work is that we'll mention story arc names or runs, typically, and for really complicated stuff we'll provide a reading order (Morrison Batman being one of them.) Most story arcs, especially the most popular ones, are collected in trade paperbacks (for instance, Batman: Year One is in the appropriately titled TPB Batman: Year One). Sometimes reading orders get so complicated (Morrison Batman is one, although you can more or less read via trade okay) that you need a specific issue-by-issue reading order - this is Marvel side, but Kieron Gillen's Young Loki saga basically requires a specific reading list because he kept being put on different books and had to construct a narrative off the like two or three issues of whatever he got put on. Mostly, though, we will name a story arc or an author (Snyder Batman, Morrison Batman, TKJ, Year One, etc) and you either research the name of the arc or look up the published works of the author in question and just read in trade order.
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Jan 21, 2018 18:13
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I'm guessing then that at a certain point I'll be familiar enough with Batman "Canon" that the jumping around won't be to much of an issue? Slight continuation of the question then; direct chronological order is for dumb dumbs, but what about for side stories and things? Someone mentioned Batman and Robin volumes upthread. So for example, are they one to one with regular Batman or does volume one end at Batman #800 and volume two starts at #1006? For example. It's probably dumb and jumping ahead to worry about side stories and things now. It's just, if I'm going through the recommended list, what is also happening at the same time, if you get my meaning.
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Jan 21, 2018 18:35
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Just read Year One. That's literally all the Batman canon you need for like 90% of Batman stories. Unless you're reading in the middle of a famous run or arc (Morrison, most specifically, but Snyder as well; Snyder also reacts to Morrison so it's sort of a continuation of his ideas. Tom King basically picks up on Batman exactly where Snyder left off, so although I would consider it an all-time classic run of comics already it loses a lot of context reading it if you haven't read the N52 Batman run, Zero Year specifically), most Batman stories just want you to know who Batman is. Maybe they'll ask you to know who Robin is (although, really, in most modern comics it's pretty simple to figure out who Tim Drake is, and Damian is rarely ever used in mainline Batman outside of, again, Morrison's run). King wants you to know who N52 Riddler (hence, why it's important to read Zero Year) is, and he focuses on Catwoman to the point where it helps but is not necessary to know her storied history with Batman. It's just comics, man. It's really nowhere near as complicated as it seems, Morrison excepted. Just know that it's a billionaire who lost his parents as a kid punching dudes while dressed as a dracula. There. That's more than enough context to comprehend most Batman stories.
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Jan 21, 2018 18:52
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OscarDiggs posted:I'm guessing then that at a certain point I'll be familiar enough with Batman "Canon" that the jumping around won't be to much of an issue? Yeah sort of? If you know the basic order that things happened, like first you had Bruce, then Dick became Robin, then Batgirl shows up, then Jason Todd is Robin, then he dies, then Tim Drake, etc. then you can place when a story happens roughly, which is usually more thought than the writers put in. With the trade volumes, a lot of them are concurrent with each other since for instance New 52 Batman & Robin and New 52 Batman were being published at the same time, but aside from crossovers they don't reference each other much, so you can usually just focus on one title at a time. The odd incongruity (when did Joker cut his face off? When did so-and-so change their costume?) gets filled in as you read other comics.
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Jan 21, 2018 18:53
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OscarDiggs posted:I'm guessing then that at a certain point I'll be familiar enough with Batman "Canon" that the jumping around won't be to much of an issue? Batman and Robin is a series created by Morrison and is...it's Morrison. Morrison is the exception to all the rules I just named. Unless you want to read Morrison, don't worry about Morrison stuff. But if you do, his run demands a lot of contextual knowledge of Batman to work most effectively, and he literally uses a bunch of old as hell Golden and Silver Age comics as essential plot points of his run. He's not the norm. He basically writes a line-wide crossover that is essential to read to glean basically any context from the second half of his Batman run, and only him and like...Hickman have done or do that. And even Hickman only sorta did it with Infinity and SW. His reading order and how he writes his various comics as one giant interconnected story is something most writers don't even vaguely attempt to do. (Ironically, Snyder's doing it right now with Metal, but, again: Not the norm.) Most of the time like 90% of comics arcs are just, read the arc, and that's it. Usually they're just a bunch of issues all from the same comic, or at worst they're an event with an alpha and omega introduction and conclusion issue with all the parts numbered from the crossover. The Morrison-y like "here read all these different comics so you get the canon I'm basing this story off of and the themes and general thrust of the story I'm building to, then read this line-wide crossover, then read these different comics but make sure you read this three-issue arc that I wrote like a year after the line-wide crossover simultaneously to the line-wide crossover because it gives some context I didn't explain in the main story, oh also read this miniseries I wrote but don't read the final issue until you hit a certain issue of this new series I started because the final issue of the mini is meant to be read at the same time as that issue of the ongoing, also the second volume of my final ongoing I write for this eight-year run is meant to be in this entirely new canon so make sure to read a couple dozen issues of the story this new guy wrote until you get to my story again so the new canon makes sense. Oh, also, I'm gonna write a completely unrelated miniseries three years later dealing with the concept of the multiverse, which entirely new writer guy, three years after that, is gonna use as a bedrock of his line-wide crossover that he'll make after a new new writer takes over the series from him."? That almost never happens. Comics are made to be easily coherent and usually at least slightly reader-friendly, so they just present a version of the story that only relies on readers having contextual knowledge of the characters to function.
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Jan 21, 2018 19:04
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The important thing to remember in terms of 'what order do I read these in?" is that in the publication history of DC Comics, their adherence to continuity/stories tying together is basically the following: 1939-1963: "Ehhh, don't worry about it. Who's going to re-read these?" 1963-1986: "If a story is outdated because it has Batman fighting in World War II or whatever, it's Earth-Two. If something else doesn't fit in with what we're doing it's uhhhh... Earth-12? Earth-J? I don't know, we'll figure it out." 1987-1994: "We're starting over! All of the stories are brand new! Except the ones we want to keep around, those still count. Unless they contradict something else. Batman has never met Superman or joined the Justice League, unless he has. This is the ONE TRUE CONTINUITY! There are no other alternate Earths/Universes." 1994-2005: "Look there's only one True Continuity, and it just got reset to give people some things they liked from before 1986 and fold it into the stuff after 1986. Also we're going to declare that Batman is an urban legend who no one has ever photographed/proved exists so please ignore him speaking at Superman's funeral on worldwide television or testifying before the United Nations or etc. etc. etc. in comics we just published. Also a bunch of other things are different but don't worry about it, we've got it figured out. Okay so we're going to give up on the urban legend thing after a couple of years but all of the other changes are sticking, swear to god. 2005-2006: "Okay we SWEAR TO GOD that there's only one True Continuity but everything got destroyed and remade yet again and so all of the stories from 1994-2005 definitely happened and so did 1987-1994 and mmmmmmmaybe everything from before that also happened? Better not tell you now!" 2007-2011: "IT ALL HAPPENED! THERE ARE FIFTY TWO DIFFERENT UNIVERSES (ed: 2010: INFINITE UNIVERSES) where everything ever happened happened and everything counts and it all fits together just please don't ask too many questions about how it all fits together. 2011-2016: "NOPE NEVER MIND, ONLY ONE TRUE UNIVERSE THAT WE'RE STARTING OVER. There are other universes but they're like What if Batman Was a Vampire And Also A Robot not representative of the old comics. Except... maybe there *are* those other universes too? The Justice League is meeting again for officially the first time. Oh except most of Batman's stories still count from the old universe, except the ones that don't. Seriously, don't worry about it! It's cool!" 2016-Present: "Okay okay okay guys... our new one true universe isn't *really* a new one true universe... it's the old one! Except altered by Doctor Manhattan, who is sad that he doesn't have a dick anymore. He's stealing love. It's why things seem so different but everything happened except for the stuff that didn't. Don't worry about it. Stephanie Brown has been around for 30 years worth of comics. Or did she debut a couple of years ago? Better not tell you now!" So trying to really figure out how things fit chronologically is an insane fool's errand. If you want a really important chronology that actually gives context to all of these stories, all you really need to know that the Robin Order was Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake (unless he was never a Robin), Stephanie Brown (unless she never existed or if she did exist didn't exist until later, or unless she was never a Robin), Damian Wayne, Duke Thomas (unless he was never a Robin). And Jason Todd came back from the dead some time in between Tim Drake (unless he was never a Robin) and Damian Wayne and was mad/bad for a bit and then is kind of good now or at least everyone is cool with him hanging out. Also Barbara Gordon might have been Oracle or might not have ever been that. WHO IS TO SAY. In all honesty if you've seen the movies/tv shows/played the video games/etc. and know the broad strokes of who characters are you kind of just have to roll with it and not worry that that much about Discrete Batman Story A fits in with Discrete Batman Story E. The other problem with trying to unify them all into a coherent story is that even the tenuous grip of logic/sanity that comes from trying to make sense of a Batman story snaps when you line everything up and see a years-long metastory of "Batman, in the past three years you've been betrayed by all four of your Robins, by the Gotham City Police Department, the Federal Government, almost the entire Justice League collectively or singly, your old handyman betrayed you, your butler betrayed you, Catwoman seduced and betrayed you, your childhood best friend came back to try to kill you, Superman has been mind-controlled repeatedly into trying to murder you and then an alternate universe Superman shows up and also tries to kill you, also someone has been gaslighting you to try to convince you that your father is alive and plotting to kill you, your friend's wife went on a murder spree that he didn't see coming, Lex Luthor is president, but here's the thing: you keep acting paranoid and aren't willing to put enough trust in your allies and their organizations! Batman, why are you so suspicious?"
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Jan 21, 2018 19:18
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Uh excuse me Edge and Christian but you forgot Hypertime Also I know all of those stories except for the one where Batman's "friend's wife" went on a...oh, did you mean TLH?
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Jan 21, 2018 19:32
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Identity crisis?
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Jan 21, 2018 19:49
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So, main takeaways. A, I'm over thinking it. B, Read Year One. C, Grant Morrison is the final boss of comic reading. D, Comics are for nerds. Thanks a bunch. I'll report back when I finally get my hands on Year One.
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Jan 21, 2018 20:03
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With 70+ years of stuff, even the current 'Batman' writer has a playful attitude as to what's REAL. Bruce and his current fiancée disagree on how they met. One thinks it's the 1940's version and one thinks Year One (80's retcon)
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Jan 21, 2018 21:02
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Teenage Fansub posted:With 70+ years of stuff, even the current 'Batman' writer has a playful attitude as to what's REAL. This is one of my favorite recurring tropes of the run.
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Jan 21, 2018 21:36
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Don't buy the initial Metal hardcover, I guess. https://twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/status/955089189237870592
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Jan 21, 2018 21:42
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Lmao the big 2 can't do proper trades ever.
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Jan 21, 2018 21:44
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MonsterEnvy posted:I am pretty sure he was not a pedophile in AA just deranged and obsessive. I mean, you could argue that his monologue is just phrased weird, but the script specifically calls him out as "an acid casualty paedophile who's become a brilliantly pathological criminal." Yes, the script has its differences from the finished product, but this scene made it through mostly intact, minus Hatter playing around with a doll super creepily. Teenage Fansub posted:Don't buy the initial Metal hardcover, I guess. That's a much better line-up than what's in the HC, I was planning on waiting for the trade anyways, but now I'm sure. Speaking of waiting for the paperbacks, has anyone heard if Year Two is getting one any time soon? I've been intrigued for a while. Edit: edited to make what I meant more clear. Sorry TFS, but thanks for your help. Every once in a while there's a deluxe edition that doesn't get a paperback, I was just hoping someone had heard that this one won't be. catlord fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Jan 22, 2018 |
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Jan 21, 2018 23:47
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A Year Two collection came out a couple of months ago. https://www.amazon.com/Batman-Year-30th-Anniversary-Deluxe/dp/1401274560
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Jan 21, 2018 23:57
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OscarDiggs posted:So, main takeaways. Pretty much. Year One will feel like a pretty familiar story (especially if you've seen Batman Begins) but there are a few specific scenes that get referenced a lot in Batman stories. It's also a really good comic which is reason enough to read it. As for D, yeah. You just need to accept that you'll sometimes come across references you don't entirely get, and if the writer is good you'll understand the gist of what happened even if you don't know the specifics and maybe you'll be interested in following up on it.
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Jan 22, 2018 02:05
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One-Face. I'm dying.
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Jan 22, 2018 03:57
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Teenage Fansub posted:Don't buy the initial Metal hardcover, I guess. Meh Lost was filler and the Forge and the Casting were pretty loving awful and Metal is far better and stands on its own without them. The only question would be how good and relevant Wild Hunt would be but as it stands a book with the main 6 wouldn't have most of these other filler/mediocre issues to get in the way of the main story's pacing.
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Jan 22, 2018 10:30
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