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Deciding on my favorite Batman story is actually a little tough. Year One probably has the best narrative objectively, but that's a Gordon story way more than it's a Batman story. I like The Dark Knight Returns a lot. It's odd for it not to be in the OP under classics even if you're not a fan. It's a story that has influenced Batman and the comic book industry since it came out and is still having a large impact on both today. For better or for worse. For more recent stuff, I enjoyed the hell out of Zero Year. I also quite liked New 52 Nightwing.
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Aug 13, 2016 21:43
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It is fair to say that they're well known enough to not need more press (though the same can be said for Year One). It is not fair to slag them because hack writers tried to milk the cow and failed. That's like blaming Wolverine for Liefeld or Superman for....well, everybody who isn't good. The word overrated is too easy to throw around.
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Aug 13, 2016 21:57
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Why do you think The Dark Knight Returns is a bad comic? Outside of the after-effects I mean. Overrated is worthless, but actually bad is something I'd like to read about. Zero Year is great, but I don't even think Snyder would say it's better than Year One.
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Aug 13, 2016 22:35
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I see. I wasn't born in the 80's and I'm not really all that political, so I guess that just flew over my head. As you said, I thought the storytelling was really good and it's got some of my favorite story beats. It could probably do with another once over, but I don't imagine my opinion would change much. Still, that was a worthwhile read, it's good to be well-rounded. Re: Year Zero, I agree that it's got really pretty art. I can't really say having a concrete villain makes Zero Year particularly better or worse. All-Star Superman doesn't really have one either and that story is amazing to me. I mean sure Lex is there, but Year One has its own villains too. From my perspective, I can kinda see a duality here. In Zero Year we get a character arc for Batman since he is the main character. Things grow up around him. In Year One, it seemed pretty obvious to me that Gordon is the main character and thus he gets the character arc. Year One is much more about setting the tone of Gotham for future stories and showing us how it transitioned from mob stuff to capes than it is about showing us how Bruce went from playboy to vigilante. I don't think that's inherently a bad thing though, just a different one. I also like Arkham Riddler cause he makes me laugh, but obviously that doesn't mean anything. Remind me, Zero Year also includes the story with the bone monster, right? That's in between the Riddler actually taking over the city and the Joker stuff. I didn't like that very much. It's debatable whether or not it's worse than prostitute Catwoman though, fair enough. Toxxupation posted:where people can rightly infer that TDKR Batman is a kiler because he's so grotesquely violent. I follow that it strawmans Superman (because a fair few Bat writers never show Clark any respect), but the only way to infer that TDKR Batman is a murderer is to misread the story. And that's not on Miller's writing at all. You have to blatantly ignore several story beats. I mean I've seen the argument before, but it's full of more bullshit than "Batman kills Joker at the end of TKJ" by a mile. Toxxupation posted:Oh and to finish off the Hot Takes, Dick Grayson is the best Batman. Well, I find this reasonable if noting else. That's basically in-universe canon.
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Aug 14, 2016 00:06
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I don't know where its head is at and that is scaring me.
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Aug 14, 2016 00:12
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That seems like quibbling. It is Joker, it's just a well-written Joker. In fact, I would argue that a fair bit of the story is working to establish that he was crazy before he ever hit the acid. He was always The Joker bubbling underneath the surface.
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Aug 14, 2016 00:36
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I want to go there with you guys, but I just didn't hate it that much. I didn't love it, but I thought it was a fine comic. I've seen Heart of Ice. I played the DLC of it in Arkham Origins. I saw him in Batman Beyond. I know Mr. Freeze's story beats like the back of my hand by now. Doing a complete swerve was at least something fresh. I'm big on "different =/= good" and that may hold true for the story, but it just didn't bother me like I know it does so many others. I could be off-base, but I think I got out of Batman Annual #1 what other people got out of Iron Man 3.
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Aug 14, 2016 01:03
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They could've done another Mr. Freeze story, but I can't think of any that have been good and did not follow the same beats as Heart of Ice. I'm just saying they had a choice between keeping the old Freeze and making a new one. I'm in favor of the latter. I don't really see what's so tone-deaf about it, the new character fits right in with New 52 Batman's Rogues.
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Aug 14, 2016 01:20
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I agree with all of that. That just means that you didn't like it though, not that it was tone deaf. I would think that in the particularly good Bat stories, you're meant to empathize with most of his villains, because they're mentally ill and need help. Harvey, Ivy, Freeze, Harley,
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Aug 14, 2016 01:38
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You gotta go back for Batman and Robin, man. You missed DickBats! Do people generally not like Battle for the Cowl? I never see anyone talk about it. I really like Dick's monologue at the end.
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Aug 14, 2016 05:23
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WickedHate posted:The perfect response to anything involving the Joker was that Max Landis story in Adventures of Superman. Sidebar, since it's not Batman, but the page of that where Joker's image cycles between all of his different incarnations over the years is fantastic.
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Aug 15, 2016 01:58
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What could DC have done to try and get around that awful Batman timeline without losing the timeframe they wanted to establish? You'd have to scrap Damian, Tim, and maybe even Jason. Now granted they scrapped Cass and Steph without a thought, but what could they have gained? Would we have to do Death in the Family and all that poo poo again?
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Aug 15, 2016 05:02
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goldenoreos posted:Isn't that the point of a reboot though? To start from scratch and move in a different direction? Really you don't even need to start with a robin at the start of a rebooted Batman comic. Just have a Batman and go from there. I mean yes and no. Batman was only around for like a year before they introduced Robin way back before any of us were born. The New 52 was already divisive. I can't imagine being an exec at DC and tossing out "Nightwing, the Teen Titans, Red Hood, and Batgirl also do not exist. We won't be writing any comics about them for a while." There's just no way that goes over well. You are right that the point of a reboot is to start over in some ways though. A Detective Comics/Batman split could've worked out. I'm not saying all Batman stories need to have Robin I just don't think they could've gotten away with cutting out very many of them. Even though I absolutely think all Batman stories that aren't his origin should have Robin. What the hell interesting stuff happens in Year Two?
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Aug 15, 2016 05:26
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If Gotham were to suddenly one day be completely crime free in a permanent fashion, I can't tell if Batman would take that as proof that he works and move to Metropolis or something or if he would just quit forever. Probably the former, but I feel like there's room for the latter. Also DC should absolutely find a way to return Dick to the cowl.
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Aug 15, 2016 14:13
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That list is way too harsh on Batfleck and not harsh enough on Burton and Nolan. I don't know if Batman Beyond refers to Terry or Old Bruce, but either way they're wrong. And putting the shooter on there is in really poor taste.
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Aug 20, 2016 22:30
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monkeu posted:Snyder Batfleck belongs right down the bottom of any batman list. He spends the entire movie literally murdering people with guns. I can't even lie, I gave out about BvS so much that I got it out of my system and forgot that even happened. I will still maintain that Affleck played the role he was given very well. That the Batman he was given sucked on a fundamental level isn't his fault. He should still beat out Schumacher Batman. Looking again, I'm surprised Miller Batman isn't on there.
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Aug 21, 2016 01:38
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I want Arkham Batman for look and voice, YJ for having the best Family, TAS Rogue's Gallery, and then I'm prolly not fussy about the rest. Batmobile is flexible.
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Aug 23, 2016 01:43
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I get the feeling that you want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing when we both said "Kevin Conroy's voice", but mine is somehow not the right one. Lurdiak posted:He's always grumpy and stone faced. We're talking about Batman.
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Aug 23, 2016 03:35
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Zero Year is getting played. What on Earth is Year 100? The adventures of Damian's grandchild?
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Aug 27, 2016 05:15
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WickedHate posted:The best Ninja Turtle is Leonardo though? I don't see why everybody is so mean to you, you clearly know what you're talking about.
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Aug 28, 2016 00:54
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The cut off face thing didn't really work for me either. That whole storyline hinges on me buying The Joker as a mastermind and that just seems silly. I'm not saying he has to be totally wacky, but he shouldn't have skills on the same tier as Batman. I hate when Joker beats Bruce in combat too. Of course, injecting everyone with Ha was well worth it.
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Sep 11, 2016 14:41
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Travis343 posted:The Batman & Robin issues were the best part of an overall bad storyline. I'm not sure that there's been a good Joker story in the last decade, honestly. That story Max Landis wrote where Superman just gives him a dismissive wanking motion for 2 comics?
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Sep 11, 2016 16:46
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Lurdiak posted:That's the best thing Max Landis has ever done. Other than the bit where Superman goes all RED GLOWING EYES like he does so often these days, I love it. If there is any character that deserves that treatment every once in a while, it's The Joker.
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Sep 11, 2016 18:10
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Lurdiak posted:Even that was in service to taking JERK BATGOD down a peg, which isn't quite as big a problem as modern Joker but still needs to stop being a thing. He did it to laser beam a chunk out of Joker too. That was the weird part to me. Him doing it to tell Bruce not to be a dick is fine. Him doing it just to shock Joker seemed a little out of character. Like I can't imagine Superman using his strength to break a guy's arm to dissuade him from doing crime again. Travis343 posted:Reading Batman, Detective, and All-Star Batman this has largely stopped being a thing. I haven't been reading Justice League but so far only the writers on Nightwing seem to have missed the memo. Batman's pretty supportive and empathetic to people nowadays. Even Nightwing Bats is only mean after Batgirl ran home to tell dad that Nightwing was hanging out with the wrong crowd.
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Sep 11, 2016 22:38
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Wasn't that reason that Batman's afraid that even someone worse would show up to take his place? I agree with this wholesale. Batman being a gigantic cynic and a coward runs directly against two of his biggest character traits to me. I'll admit that "I wouldn't know when to stop" is lame reasoning, but "I'm just too scared, Alfred" is even worse.
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Sep 12, 2016 07:28
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Toxxupation posted:I'm not gonna debate the coward stuff but I'd love to hear your justification to this because to me Batman's cynicism is absolutely one of his most defining elements. He never trusts anyone, about anything, ever, and assumes that everyone at the very least has the capacity to betray him. It's really not hard, I've got a list. Bruce Wayne is a guy that 100% seriously believes that he can eradicate all crime in his city permanently by dressing up as a giant bat and punching people in the face. He sends most of his villains to an asylum that he funds because he sincerely hopes that they'll get help and reform. He's worked alongside Riddler, Two Face, and Catwoman (who granted is not insane, but has been a criminal) in the hopes that they will become good people. He's in the middle of reforming Clayface right now in Detective Comics, because he also sees his redemption as a possibility. I know Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader isn't exactly critically acclaimed, but the series of panels with Clayface telling his story are EXACTLY how I would define Batman. "I said I'm not worth it. He said everyone's worth it." That's Batman. He took in Grayson and Todd because he felt like dressing them up as pixies would help them with the immense childhood trauma they'd suffered. He never gave up on Damian despite being presented with a murderous bastard for a child. Even when he wanted nothing more than to toss him out, he always kept Damian by his side in the hopes that he'd overcome his Al Ghul heritage. I mean, seriously, optimism lies at the heart of Batman and I can't comprehend an interpretation of the character where this is not true. Even your second sentence is blatantly untrue. It's a point of parody by this point in the character's nearly 100 years of history. They take the piss out of Bats for it all the time. The character who "never trusts anyone" has the largest supporting cast of any superhero period. He's got a whole family. Sure they may write that he kept something from Tim or that he lied to Barbara, but there's absolutely no doubt that he trusts all of them with his life. From Dick Grayson to Duke Thomas. The Dark Knight Returns is one of the darkest Batman stories and even that tale doesn't go for very long before he picks up a Robin in Carrie Kelly with which he trusts his legacy. Ditto for Batman Beyond with Terry. Sure Bruce has stuff like "How I'd Kill All My Friends" and the aforementioned Death of the Family is one of many stories about him keeping secrets, but that's all back to pragmatism and arrogance (respectively) before I'd call either cynicism. Bruce lives in a world where basically everyone he's known in the past 20 years has been mind controlled at some point. He still lets Superman kick it in the cave from time to time. I mean honestly, interpretations are personal. I can't tell you that you've interpreted Batman wrong. This however feels like someone saying they've never seen a homosexuality allegory in the X-Men.
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Sep 12, 2016 07:42
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The writers aren't obligated to answer questions about the universe if they aren't helpful to the storytelling. If they can't provide a good answer to the question, leave it in the air. Especially if the answer they have is as bad as Snyder's. I know the modern DCU is leaning heavy into meta stuff, but not everything has to be metatextual. I mean you're not wrong that the two major answers to the question are bad. I just totally disagree that this third option is any better and you haven't said a word as to why that's an incorrect conclusion.
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Sep 12, 2016 18:37
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Yes, none of that addresses "coward" or "cynic". The only two objections I raised. You ignored both. I'd hardly call "It wouldn't be worth it because I don't think it will be" smart or pragmatic. Toxxupation posted:That makes Batman look super loving petty, and obfuscates his entire directive of being a public good. It sorta works in the sense that it's in-character to most interpretations of Batman, but I would argue that it's some cold loving comfort to the people of Gotham that the one loving dude who could actually kill the Joker doesn't because it would make him feel bad. That seems harsh on Bats. Tons of cops and guards have had Joker at gunpoint. No court would convict them. Anyone could kill Joker. They all choose not to. And this rabbit hole is why this question does not work.
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Sep 12, 2016 18:52
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Yeah that was Nolan and it's amazing. That's exactly how it'd go in his Universe.
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Sep 12, 2016 19:48
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I feel like that plot thread was the entire crux of Rebirth. I can't imagine a way they could've proceeded with the next few years of DC Comics without ever mentioning it again. Lurdiak posted:I like Year One but it's got lots of stupid Miller-isms, like Gordon being SO BADASS he can take out a younger guy twice his size so easily that he has to give him a bat to "make it fair". The one that always springs to mind is Catwoman being a hooker or whatever. Why, Frank? Why?
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Sep 15, 2016 01:16
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Flashpoint was a Flash story yes, but it was done to facilitate all of the New 52. The point was to soft reboot Batman & GL and hard reboot everyone else to be younger. That story, despite being framed as a Flash story, wasn't just done to split Barry from Iris and DELETE Wally West. Rebirth was about bringing Watchmen into the DCU proper. It was done through Wally, but you have to be pretty drat stubborn to have not seen that it was not about him. The marketing was all about The Watchmen. I can't imagine DC would do universe-wide reboot to bring back The Flash that Geoff Johns doesn't even want. Wally was bonus points.
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Sep 15, 2016 03:47
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Narratively Batman doesn't kill because it makes his stories plausible. If Batman weren't opposed to killing, I don't really see how any of his villains could inconvenience him. Two Face is robbing the 2nd National Bank on 2nd Street on a Tuesday? Send the Batplane and just gatling gun him on his way out. A Batman that kills is a poor interpretation of Batman. Batfleck included even if I liked his acting in Batman v Superman.
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Sep 16, 2016 22:06
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A Batman that kills a bunch of people indirectly/accidentally and shrugs it off is worse than Bat-Punisher. Then he looks incompetent. Nolan's Batman looked like a goof so much in that series.
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Sep 16, 2016 22:14
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purple death ray posted:Also I think the single most underdone Batman era in the modern times is when it was just Bruce and Dick so I'd love to see more adaptations move past the "I shall become a bat" phase without jumping ahead into full on Batfamily (as in the Arkham games) or straight to DKR (the movies). I liked Origins the least of the Arkham games, but I really wanted a sequel, because the multiplayer of that game is surprisingly fun as hell. Especially when you're on Team Hero. I really really wanted Origins 2 to be about the Bruce/Dick era of Batman.
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Oct 4, 2016 03:38
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I think at that point they just become maps.
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Oct 4, 2016 03:46
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monkeu posted:I'm just gonna leave this here Wow, I loved every second. I'll be going to see it twice. I need that Batman to be forever.
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Nov 18, 2016 20:11
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Phenotype posted:I don't really like the comparison at all, I feel like DC's world doesn't really have room for a Dr. Doom character when you have heavies like Superman and the JLA running around. Luthor is close, but he's an American billionaire who keeps his hands incredibly clean and doesn't usually directly challenge the heroes in a way that they could just punch him into the sun. If Bane gets too far off of the street-level stuff Batman handles, I just feel like Superman would burst through the wall and haul him back to prison. Even if they gave Bane a Latveria of his own and some measure of diplomatic protection, I feel like a big part of Doom's strength is that he's a physical match for most of the heroes in the MCU between his armor and his sorcery. The Avengers aren't strong enough to just invade Latveria and depose Doom if he steps out of line too far. To be fair, Luthor used to throw down with the superheroes all the time. It wasn't until relatively recently that he became the guy he is in like the DCAU. Also, it would have to be a pretty weak Avengers line-up for me to believe they couldn't take on Doom. Luke Cage did it solo.
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Mar 2, 2017 07:15
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Jiro posted:Goodbye old chum. Well this day sucks.
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Jun 10, 2017 17:07
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