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Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Are we just saying good Batman stories now, because





are very good Batmans.

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Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Eh.... I love Brave and the Bold, but Batman wasn't even the best part of that show.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Arkham Batman is so lame. He's always grumpy and stone faced.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


SonicRulez posted:

We're talking about Batman.

Just because he's Batman doesn't mean he gets away with having zero dimensions.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Squizzle posted:

There were about 15 years between early BTAS and late JLU. Conroy aged from a spry 35 or 36, to hitting 50 (and was rumored to have health problems for a while, for whatever rumor is worth). By the end, his voice might not have been comfortable in the early BTAS Bruce range anymore.

I'm quite comfortable saying voice direction still played a big part. If one looks at New Adventures' Bruce Wayne design, it's easy to imagine Kevin was told to Batman up the Bruce voice a bit.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


I didn't read it but everyone says it's quite good.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


I can't believe 3 of you schmucks voted for Long Halloween.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Travis343 posted:

Long Halloween is mostly good with some dumb stuff. It's Dark Victory that's mostly dumb with some good stuff.

Sure, but it's not good enough to be GOAT by a longshot. And Loeb stole all the two-face stuff from a better comic that's not even on the list.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


This is the greatest strawpoll travesty since I made a strawpoll about who the best Ninja Turtle was and everyone voted for Donatello.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Endless Mike posted:

I, too, get mad when people are objectively correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWvWWR34fsM

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Travis343 posted:

There's no best Ninja Turtle. Any one is incomplete without the other three.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Rafael isn't as cool as Mickey Langello.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


SonicRulez posted:

That story Max Landis wrote where Superman just gives him a dismissive wanking motion for 2 comics?

That's the best thing Max Landis has ever done.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


SonicRulez posted:

Other than the bit where Superman goes all RED GLOWING EYES like he does so often these days, I love it. If there is any character that deserves that treatment every once in a while, it's The Joker.

Even that was in service to taking JERK BATGOD down a peg, which isn't quite as big a problem as modern Joker but still needs to stop being a thing.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


SonicRulez posted:

That seems harsh on Bats. Tons of cops and guards have had Joker at gunpoint. No court would convict them. Anyone could kill Joker. They all choose not to. And this rabbit hole is why this question does not work.

The most unbelievable thing about the Batman universe is that Joker never got shanked to death by some random guy who's niece he poisoned the few times he was in jail instead of Arkham.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Dacap posted:

Yeah, I've always thought the bigger question is "why hasn't the state given Joker the death penalty?"

Want that actually Nolan's in universe answer for where the Joker was in TDKR? He got executed between films.

Yeah, honestly, the idea that Joker somehow gets declared legally insane when the standard is so high for that in court and he's clearly able to execute complex schemes, hold long conversations about morality, do comedy routines live on the air, etc. is completely ridiculous.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


I like Year One but it's got lots of stupid Miller-isms, like Gordon being SO BADASS he can take out a younger guy twice his size so easily that he has to give him a bat to "make it fair".

Incidentally, it also features fully grown Batman saving baby Barbara Gordon, so take that, creepy people who think the relationship is acceptable.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


catlord posted:

Wasn't it James Jr.? I thought that the baby in Year One was a boy.

Oh, you might be right. So that'd mean Barbara wasn't even born.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


I think Batman should not killl because if murder is an acceptable solution to crime, there's really no reason for him to do anything but burst into rooms with machine guns and mow everyone down instead of getting into karate fights and using stealth.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Yeah, the issue lies in modern DC's love of upping the stakes with body counts that make real life tragedies seem quaint.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


He doesn't loving kill Ras. That's very explicit.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


CharlestheHammer posted:

He doesn't kill Dent either. Though Lamps definition of kill is really broad.

Hey, whatever hoops need to be jumped through to pretend Batman v Superman wasn't a tire fire, he'll gladly do it.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


I just wanted to play as Bane in the challenge maps.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


I can't believe I agree with DT about Bane.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.



I really thought this movie had already come out.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


SonicRulez posted:

Wow, I loved every second. I'll be going to see it twice. I need that Batman to be forever.

The monkey's paw curls a single finger, this movie gets turned into Batman Forever.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


purple death ray posted:

ComicsAlliance has a decent interview with Tom King about his Batman stories, specifically the most recent issue #12.

http://comicsalliance.com/tom-king-batman-12-i-am-suicide-interview/

If you're like me you've been kind of on the fence about King's Batman run so far. I feel like every issue so far has been Just Okay, but I get the very strong feeling that the ending of his story is either going to push the whole thing into Extremely Awful or Extremely Great. It is kind of tiring reading honestly mediocre comics in the hope that it will eventually pay off but this interview at least gives me some hope that he knows what he's doing.

I found the stuff about fan reaction to his Catwoman very interesting.

"And then I made Batman a nazi! The fans hated that!"

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


You don't need to have disposable income to buy that, you just need to make really bad decisions in your life.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


There was more than one Tally Man?

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Tally Man's whole thing was being obsessed with the checks and balances of life, because debts destroyed his family or something. Thus he was a hit man, but for crazy reasons instead of greed. The fact that tally man means debt collector kinda makes any connection to Mr. Zszszsz not really work.

He's such a nothing rogue that he probably rates below Film Freak, so it's really weird that apparently he died and someone was like "We need to try again with this character"

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


It's not sexist to find physically imposing people physically imposing. I'd have a hard time getting frightened of the One Direction kids.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Isn't that just because he minimizes the dumb lines and weird yellow outline to the bat-symbol as much as possible without just removing them? Like, he draws a good Bat-costume, then begrudgingly adds a couple details to make it technically the new costume.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


The Riddler's ego and psychological hangups hamper him from being that kind of character way more than Bane's inconsistently-written intellect.

I think Dr. Doom is a bit much, even at his most ambitious Bane was never a "rule the world" type. His loftiest goal was basically to turn Gotham into his personal kingdom, and while that's pretty drat ambitious considering Batman lives there, it's not exactly Lex Luthor or Ras Al Ghul levels of villainy. If someone wrote a story about Bane annexing some european kingdom it'd be really weird and out of place, as would a story about Bane acquiring the DC equivalent of the power cosmic.

At his best, Bane doesn't really have an equivalent in the Marvel universe. He was a very unique character during Knightfall, and while he had obvious character flaws that led to his downfall, he was a uniquely menacing character who's iron will, fearlessness and ruthless tactics combined with his raw physical power to make him a threat Batman didn't know how to deal with, being used to dealing with psychos, petty crooks and outright moronic brutes. He was really wasted in a lot of his subsequent stories, usually by making him a dumb angry strong guy or trying to do dimestore versions of Knightfall with less than half the impact. But it's really hard to top knightfall or even know where to take the character from there.

I guess when someone means the "Dr. Doom" of DC they could mean how Dr. Doom is just this character who, when he returns, is always a huge credible threat to the FF, no matter how many times he's lost before, and can get an outright victory on them more often than not. This kind of dynamic is a little more difficult to pull off with Batman, who for whatever reason seems to have a lot invested into being a character who can never be defeated twice.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


ImpAtom posted:

A major element of Dr. Doom is that he's flawed. He isn't the Best Ever, he's the best ever with a massive glaring set of flaws that constantly undercut him. Lex Luthor fills the same niche where he is defeated as much by himself as by Superman.

"What if Bane was really smart and cool and awesome" wouldn't be Dr. Doom. To be a true character in that mold you need to have weaknesses as big as your strengths. To some degree this is what original Knightfall Bane was. He was terrifying, intelligent, capable, and defeated Batman both mentally and physically. (Something that tends to get overlooked in favor of He BROKE the BAT). Yet he was also crippled by his addiction and his weaknesses. Removing those weaknesses makes him less interesting and less meaningful because he just becomes Strong Smart Guy #932.

You can't do the exact same Bane story over and over again but part of what you need to tell a Bane story is his weaknesses. Venom and his addiction to it is part of it and if you remove Venom you can't remove Bane's addictive personality and ability to self-sabotage because that's an important element of what defines Bane. He is someone who can beat Batman but also someone who can't defeat himself. The reason why material keeps going back to Bane having Venom or a Venom-alike is because it provides a simple glowing green visual for his true flaw. You can remove it but not without replacing it.

To some degree Bane is defined by his addiction to power. This is again clear in Knightfall more than anywhere else where he wants strength, he wants respect, he wants women, he wants all these things because the are power. He wants to beat the Batman as a symbol of his power. If you want to set Bane up as a strong figure it has to be a figure who desires strength to the point of it being a weakness. He should be excessive in a way that is at once terrifying and crippling, as much as the Riddler leaving clues or Lex Luthor hyper-focusing on Superman.

Good post, and I agree. Bane revealed a lot of psychological weaknesses once he had actually defeated Batman, because while everyone was scared shitless of him, he was unable to enjoy his position as ruler of Gotham because of his relentless drive, and his iron-fisted rule basically made it an inevitability that he'd eventually go down, because he was completely unwilling to compromise or fade into the background when necessary.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


For the record I had no idea who the gently caress Bane was in the 90s so my like of him is not nostalgic.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Yeah, someone at DC had the pretty smart realization that a wacky mad scientist is a pretty dated villain for someone like Superman and turned Lex into a skinnier Kingpin, which is a much more interesting take on the character.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


I still don't understand why Azrael 2 and Red Hood, violent amputating murderers, get to be on team Batman but the original Azrael was supposed to be a monster who must be stopped because he kinda cut people sometimes.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


He didn't kill him, he just didn't save him. Which as Christopher Nolan taught us, is totally different.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


redbackground posted:

True, I forgot the specifics. Didn't a hostage die too?

I don't think so? I think some kids got to see the guy fall into a vat of molten metal or whatever it was, so that can't have been great. JP did a lot of loving up and scaring the poo poo out of people, and what he did to Tally man is pretty messed up. But as far as I know he never cut off anyone's legs or murdered anyone.

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Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


He ran away from ghosts yelling at him.

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