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Killing every belter would still only be like one half of one percent as bad as what Marco did.page 2 of Leviathan Wakes posted:If you asked OPA recruiters when they were drunk and feeling expansive, they might say there were a hundred million in the Belt.
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Dec 15, 2016 06:34
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:How is the fact that we dropped a nuke on Japan, then we dropped a bigger one on them, and we didn't even really need to, the war was essentially over at that point, we just wouldn't accept anything other than unconditional surrender and they didn't want to give that, not the obvious comparison? But if something like that can get wrapped up in a lot of other things, I suppose the destruction of Earth could feel the same to Belters (except for the "saving lives overall" part, as more than half of humanity might be dead by the end of this). It's still hard to imagine, but that comparison helps- especially the fact that I didn't think of it and had it in a kind of separate mental box is probably exactly how people would justify accepting the horror and moving on. Even if one legitimately believes the atomic bomb was justified, that just makes the point even more clearly that death on that scale can be justified if it's what "needed to be done." Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:If anything, the authors have vastly under-estimated the rage that would exist. Consider the non-ironic calls to nuke Mecca after 9/11 (which killed .0001% of the population). James Holden's This Ganymedeian Life notwithstanding, Earth is going to want blood. It's probably a good thing that the actual elected government died off leaving the civil service in charge because the politically expedient move would be straight up belter genocide. Even strategically, your best bet to kill a pirate navy is to eliminate its support faculties, which means a methodical campaign of total war where you occupy or destroy every settlement from the core outward. Marco's genocide was so unprecedented in its scale, you'd think there would be commensurately extreme emotional reactions, but instead people more or less get on with doing what they think they need to do. I don't know if that's a weird reaction, or a plausibly mundane one.
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Dec 15, 2016 07:09
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Platystemon posted:Seriously, Marco is at least four hundred Hitlers, and that’s if we attribute all deaths in the European theatre to Hitler (combat, Holocaust, famine, &c.). This reminds me of an extremely old and good post quote:One hitler shall henceforth be a unit of measurement equal to 6.0*106 human deaths.
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Dec 15, 2016 07:10
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Eiba posted:I don't know if that's a weird reaction, or a plausibly mundane one. I think it is plausible. I mean, belters are their own culture. They have their own language and even look different, being flat out physiologically unsuited to live on a gravity well. Combine that, with the fact that such a level of destruction is just unfathomable to most people then, yeah, I think it's reasonable that so many people don't really care.
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Dec 15, 2016 09:02
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I think a closer comparison would be if 90% of Japan was plunged into the sea, completely destoying all infrastructure, cultural heritage and continuity with the pre war government. E: also it's all of East Asia that's destroyed instead of only Japan. Like belters and earth, most of the western population has never even seen East Asia! Strategic Tea fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Dec 15, 2016 |
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Dec 15, 2016 11:58
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The equivalent belter population would be Clacton on Sea. Nobody would miss them. In the comparison with the bombing of Japan, the terrifying unintended consequence was 70+ years of disaster manga/anime. Earth should flood the belt with poorly drawn and plotted animation for 1000 years in punishment.
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Dec 15, 2016 15:52
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That's cruel and unusual, lobbing asteroids is far more defensible in court.
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Dec 15, 2016 15:59
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Trying to think back to previous books, but are space elevators mentioned anywhere? Seems like a natural thing within the setting and has to be more efficient that shuttling people up and down wells on ships.
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Dec 19, 2016 03:07
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Der Luftwaffle posted:Trying to think back to previous books, but are space elevators mentioned anywhere? Seems like a natural thing within the setting and has to be more efficient that shuttling people up and down wells on ships. IIRC they have mass drivers to deliver cargo, but I’m pretty sure there are no space elevators.
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Dec 19, 2016 03:17
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Nope but I'm at least reasonably certain that's one of the places all this protomolecule-inspired materials science is going.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:22
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Anything can be "justified" depending on perspective; however, in the case of the belt killing off billions on the Earth, there are certain material considerations that all but the blind should see, which would stop you. First and foremost there is the economic issue. The belt still relies almost completely on the heavy industry and agriculture of the inners. You disrupt the Earth on a massive scale, you're loving your self forever--even that splinter OPA "we can make a sustainable economy in 3 years..." stuff is bullshit. Yes, if everything goes right, we won't just start dying off in mass from station failures and starvation, maybe. We will have a seriously worse standard of living and all be laboring in collective farms--if we are lucky. Then there is the issue of The only analogy here to the Second World War is this: the belt, not the Earth, is Japan. You're the small power now facing 4/5th (when you add Mars) of the productive capacity of the solar system, and since you've set the genocidal tone for the conflict, you have to hope that when they come with irresistible force (and they will come), the sane government that buys norms like human rights has weathered the storm you caused is leading the charge. Because chances are pretty good that the sane government will have bee replaced by people with a mandate to make the belt pay in blood for the death of billions of people on earth. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 21:26
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Also, mass driven rocks work both ways and the belt doesn't have an atmosphere to burn off small projectiles. A dump truck worth of gravel could straight gently caress up almost any man-made structure in the belt with a predictable orbit.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:28
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ZombieLenin posted:The only analogy here to the Second World War is this: the belt, not the Earth, is Japan. You're the small power now facing 4/5th (when you add Mars) of the productive capacity of the solar system, and since you've set the genocidal tone for the conflict, you have to hope that when they come with irresistible force (and they will come), the sane government that buys norms like human rights has weathered the storm you caused is leading the charge.
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Dec 21, 2016 03:24
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I can only assume that no one has posed a serious threat to Avasarala’s power because everyone is too busy just surviving.
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Dec 21, 2016 03:28
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Which may be a giant mistake. We've taken for granted that the U.N. is U.
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Dec 21, 2016 07:23
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Platystemon posted:I considered the possibility that it was a remnant of the security system that enforced a speed limit in the slow zone. Who knows if the speed limit would have applied to the alien propulsion method Eros used? It's likely simply a hard limit on the energy/mass the slow zone hub can transport in a certain window, just like Naomi discovered. The hub, which I assume powers the actual transfer between dimensions, may have a limit to its energy production. Considering their capacity, the previous occupants of the slow zone would have waited significantly longer than the two minute window required to vanish Marco's ships to avoid the effect. Had the Sol gate been established with humans still farting through space with chemical propulsion, it's possible they wouldn't have even triggered the limitation. Just because the gates' builders considered physical laws a joke doesn't mean they had clowned interdimensional travel as thoroughly. And the way the mass ghosts seem connected to gate travel it may have been the establishment of slow zones that started the previous race's extinction. Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:Which may be a giant mistake. We've taken for granted that the U.N. is U. Anyone short of Duarte taking out Avasarala would feel... inadequate. Returning to his home system with superweapons, achieving a bloodless surrender, then executing his biggest political rival would be a hell of a way to start book 7, and set a contrast to Marco's sloppy space-rock-genocide-then-war strategy. If ol' "Ragin'" Chrisjen Avasarala actually bit the big one it'd honestly hit me harder than any character in the series. Even more than Amos or Peaches.
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Dec 22, 2016 13:31
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I loved a lot of details in the latest book. One I was just thinking of was the scene with Alex in the bar when things were going well with that woman (whose name I forget). Things are going well, they're all drunk and she's flirting heavily with him, and he thinks he might be in for a fun time that night, so he slips off to the bathroom and gets a packet from a dispenser. And it turns out it's anti-narcotics because they're going to be doing something everyone needs to fully consent to. And when she sees it she's like, "aww yeah." It was both a funny twist, and another heartwarming example of modern problems being unremarkable basic decency in the future.  Pyzza Rouge posted:Anyone short of Duarte taking out Avasarala would feel... inadequate. Returning to his home system with superweapons, achieving a bloodless surrender, then executing his biggest political rival would be a hell of a way to start book 7, and set a contrast to Marco's sloppy space-rock-genocide-then-war strategy. It's kind of odd how the Belt and Mars and every other group has been wracked by incredible internal conflict (the Free Navy split from the OPA, and itself spawned Pa's Pirate fleet; internal divisions in Mars's navy are what set this whole hosed up series of events off) while the Earth has been, if not physically unscathed, remarkably politically stable. I wonder if it's a testament to how precarious the new institutions are on the frontier, or a lack of imagination from the authors, or simply the fact that the Earth is in a defensive/reactive position, and dissenting factions haven't been able to do anything because Earth in general can't do anything. In any case, I would be surprised if we didn't end up seeing serious unrest on Earth before the end of the series.
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Dec 22, 2016 18:24
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I expect they are waiting for the right moment. Like once all the hard work is done.
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Dec 22, 2016 20:42
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It was probably hard to stir up the masses when all they had to lose was
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Dec 22, 2016 23:48
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Or maybe the plot would have been too complicated? I was kind of surprised that Mao didn't kill Marco, because they kept saying he underestimates women and who is more dangerous to underestimate than her? Naomi apparently.
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Dec 22, 2016 23:59
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They never interact though? Unless you mean Pa? In which case she never had an opportunity. He had a dozen gunships surrounding his insecure arse all the time. They were bigger and faster than her three ships.
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Dec 23, 2016 01:45
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Collateral posted:They never interact though? Unless you mean Pa? In which case she never had an opportunity. He had a dozen gunships surrounding his insecure arse all the time. They were bigger and faster than her three ships. I mean Clarissa Mao. I thought she and some of the rest of the Roci crew might be captured, then while Marco is gloating she turns his head completely around. I understand that it did not turn out that way. She is just made to be underestimated.
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Dec 23, 2016 04:00
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Eiba posted:I loved a lot of details in the latest book. One I was just thinking of was the scene with Alex in the bar when things were going well with that woman (whose name I forget). Things are going well, they're all drunk and she's flirting heavily with him, and he thinks he might be in for a fun time that night, so he slips off to the bathroom and gets a packet from a dispenser. Yeah I enjoyed it more than any book in the series so far. Going with so many already well-developed PoV characters was a big factor for me. E.g. Having a solid Amos chapter without having had several previous chapters to get used to his voice made it super enjoyable, despite the fact it was all for a quiet Holden character development moment. Praxidike's Family Time was similarly enjoyable, though I still hope the effects of his actions will have a bigger impact later. Just didn't feel very necessary plotwise.
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Dec 23, 2016 16:55
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Pyzza Rouge posted:Yeah I enjoyed it more than any book in the series so far. Going with so many already well-developed PoV characters was a big factor for me. It was weird to me, I agree with everything you're saying, but I was left a little disappointed by the ending. Vanishing Marco to save the day seemed a little deus ex machina, and there was finality to the ending I didn't expect at all. The last few books, all them until now really, were very cliff hangary. Some in the epilogue, and some in just the meat of the ending. This one, I was like, well there is the missing mars fleet, but pretty much everything else is wrapped up, including a new political solution to what's been going on for most of the series.
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Dec 24, 2016 00:20
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ZombieLenin posted:It was weird to me, I agree with everything you're saying, but I was left a little disappointed by the ending. Yes this book pretty clearly marks a turning point from threats from inside of the Solar system to threats outside of it.
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Dec 24, 2016 00:39
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Bozart posted:Yes this book pretty clearly marks a turning point from threats from inside of the Solar system to threats outside of it. Do you think? I mean the first arc of the story all about about existential threats posed by the pm other. Helped by humans, of course. Given that Mars fleet beyond the gate I don't think that will change much. Really it's only been the last couple books where the outside truly "alien" threat wasn't the existential threat. I guess they tried really hard to resolve the internal social fractures amongst people in the solar system; however, if the authors are smart (and they clearly are), I can't help but think that things haven't been resolved as neatly as the appear. They couldn't be, without springing the whole superstructure of the human organization of labor into the air. They've gotten close to that, but always pull back at the final moment. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Dec 25, 2016 |
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Dec 24, 2016 01:20
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ZombieLenin posted:It was weird to me, I agree with everything you're saying, but I was left a little disappointed by the ending. At the very least, there was an opportunity to reveal a bit more about how the ghosts work with Marco. I certainly wouldn't have minded him getting explicitly eaten either. The ending was definitely the weakest bit. Between the peace conference and the gate trick nothing felt like a solid win. The books are okay about setting up and swerving to big moments. But once they arrive there's not enough drama poured into them, at least for my tastes.
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Dec 24, 2016 02:41
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The Expanse (2015– ) Trivia The series title "The Expanse" is based on the large void that exists between the ears of the two writers. 69 of 69 found this interesting | Share this
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Dec 24, 2016 02:49
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ZombieLenin posted:Vanishing Marco to save the day seemed a little deus ex machina, and there was finality to the ending I didn't expect at all. Marco was a boring character who never should have lived past Nemesis Games. But I wouldn’t be surprised if he returns somehow. Magical disappearances do tend to leave that as a possibility.
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Dec 24, 2016 03:02
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A human heart posted:The Expanse (2015– ) Nothing better to do tonight then threadshit all over the place, huh? gently caress off.
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Dec 24, 2016 05:40
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Phanatic posted:Nothing better to do tonight then threadshit all over the place, huh? gently caress off. I thought this thread would appreciate knowing some interesting facts.
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Dec 24, 2016 08:22
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A human heart posted:I thought this thread would appreciate knowing some interesting facts. Yes, we would appreciate that. Unfortunately you don't seem inclined to oblige
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Dec 24, 2016 19:06
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The thing about the ending is, I don't think it's the ripple killing them. I think the fact that they keep saying x "never even saw what killed them" is implying that the either whatever's actually causing the "disintegration" effect or something afterwards is being drawn to the energy backlash and gobbling the ships up. I mean, this is entirely my interpretation, but I can't shake it from my mind.
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Dec 24, 2016 21:32
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Folks saying we never saw Earth have a split like the other factions did: we did. Nguyen, Errinwright and Mao were Earth's big factional infighting split. It's just that who they were trying to coup was Chrisjen motherfucking Avasarala.
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Dec 26, 2016 12:41
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The Muffinlord posted:The thing about the ending is, I don't think it's the ripple killing them. I think the fact that they keep saying x "never even saw what killed them" is implying that the either whatever's actually causing the "disintegration" effect or something afterwards is being drawn to the energy backlash and gobbling the ships up. I mean, this is entirely my interpretation, but I can't shake it from my mind. Yeah, my theory is that the effect they experience is a safety mechanism of some sort that pulls them out of our physical space into whatever funky space the gate builders used. They'd be safely held there until the congestion lowered. Except, something killed the gate builders and did so in that funky space. So, instead of being held safely they get gobbled up by whatever killed the gate builders.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:24
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I think the weird darkness in the in-between wormhole space is the thing that killed the protomolecule builders, but I don't think it came from there. I think some of them just got stuck there and have been hanging out for a few dozen million years. Then someone stumbles on them and they do what they do.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:09
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My favorite "twist" so far, and the thing that gives me most hope about the things between the gates, is how they handled the protomolecule mystery. Here's this crazy weird goop that turns people into zombies and repurposes them in horrific ways... and its original destination was Earth. Clearly it was an attack, or some attempt to wipe out life on Earth before it could evolve past the stage of bacteria. There's all this hand-wringing insecurity about this malevolent extra terrestrial force and what it means. But as it turns out it was just a mindless automated gate builder, doing its mindless automated gate building thing. It was never an antagonist. There wasn't any sort of destructive purpose or threat behind any of its actions. It was just an uncaring unthinking force. And the good bit was, it looked like a threat. Like an attack. But in retrospect all of its actions make sense simply as an automated constructor. So I trust that these things between the gates are similar. Not attacking aliens or a weapon gone rogue, but some sort of industrial accident with an otherwise understandable, entirely mundane "motive". At least that's what I hope. It's pretty clear that this series is never going to go "the real enemy was space aliens!" at least. Humanity is its own enemy. All wounds are self inflicted, facilitated by the illusion of otherness. This is a good series.
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Dec 28, 2016 04:58
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I love the detail that the aliens died off literally a billion years ago. Completely nips in the bud any theory that we're their descendants, or murderers, or designs, or that there's any special connection at all between earth and their civilization.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:44
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A human heart posted:I thought this thread would appreciate knowing some interesting facts. Given a choice, I would punch you in the throat. Unfortunately, that is not possible. I guess it isn't interesting enough.
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Dec 30, 2016 08:07
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Jew it to it! posted:Given a choice, I would punch you in the throat. Unfortunately, that is not possible. I guess it isn't interesting enough. You'd punch someone for posting a joke on a web site?
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Dec 30, 2016 08:14
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