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Z3n posted:Also cheap is, I suppose, relative. I'm assuming 2-4k for suspension, 1-2k in wheels, and eventually 4-8k in engine/transmission swap? Before this whole project came along, the next project for me was going to be a Kawasaki H2, which would probably run me 15k for the bike plus another 5k in parts/tune/etc, so I figure anything under that is fine. Ok, gotcha. It sounded like you were going the budget build route but yeah sounds like you're on the right track!
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Aug 24, 2016 21:38
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leica posted:Ok, gotcha. It sounded like you were going the budget build route but yeah sounds like you're on the right track! Yeah, I'm still in the vacillate wildly part of the project where I explore all the options before settling down on what I actually want out of it. On a broad scale, absolute performance isn't the goal but it should intimidate and create a healthy amount of respect for the car, much like I approach the bikes. That's followed by usability and reliability as a daily driver, and modern-ish performance. Hitting ~400hp with an LSx seems to be the sweet spot for price vs performance, while getting into a reliable, modern engine, having a clutch easily usable without having to think about it on Bay Area hills, plus making me giggle when I hammer it through a few gears getting on the freeway. I'd like efficiency for long freeway trips, leaving the bench seats in so I can cram 6 friends in it if I want (and throw them all over the car when I drive fast). It should go, stop, be fun around a corner, and comfortable for long trips. I'll probably cram all kinds of modern tech into the dash while keeping it looking OEM as much as possible. I'm willing to spend money on this project for the obvious sentimental reasons, but spending unreasonably to reach those goals definitely isn't the point - the goal is to do something that's uniquely mine, that I can hopefully complete is a reasonable timeline and drive my grandfather to the beach in. That'd make him really happy. iamthehans posted:I'm on the other side of the country but on the off chance you get stuck finding parts for the car let me know i horde pontiac parts. I'm more of a 60's guy but I do have 70's front ends and some odd's and ends Much appreciated - I'll hit you up if I run into any problems. I'll likely have extra parts after the swap, too, if you're interested.
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Aug 24, 2016 22:26
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Oh and I've done the basic reading, will contact cal speed and such, but does anyone have guidance on the best way to handle CA emissions, DMV, etc? I'm assuming the best way will be: Get car running with current engine Transfer title via DMV fixer Do engine swap with original emissions equipment Get DMV fixer to update the paperwork Live happily ever after, as it's a pre-75 vehicle and thusly doesn't need smog tests
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Aug 24, 2016 23:48
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They'll do a vin inspection when you register it in CA. No need to take it to a smog shop or BAR Referee. Repower it with whatever you see fit.
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Aug 25, 2016 00:40
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I've never done an out of state transfer, but I think your best bet is to get it all nicely transferred in stock form - once you get the CA pink/registration then just go hog wild on that engine bay because you'll only get tag renewals in the mail after that.
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Aug 25, 2016 01:06
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Oh hey, if that's a Buick 350, I'd be interested in the old motor. Depending on condition. And yeah, you could get a new high output crate motor for the cost of getting a Buick 350 up to 500.
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Aug 25, 2016 03:48
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Commodore_64 posted:Oh hey, if that's a Buick 350, I'd be interested in the old motor. Depending on condition. And yeah, you could get a new high output crate motor for the cost of getting a Buick 350 up to 500. Totally - I'll probably end up getting it running with the old motor to start with, that that should give you a decent idea of condition based on compression/etc.
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Aug 25, 2016 04:50
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From my research, the steps for a California engine change are as so: Restrictions All original emissions equipment must be in place No changing between classes of vehicles (ie, no truck engines in cars). California certified vehicles have to use California certified engines (not a problem for me, as the car pre-dates California certifications) Once the engine is swapped, you have to go to a BAR station, who will give you a doorjam stamp after verification that the engine swap passes smog for the year and model of car that you swapped the engine in from (so I have to make sure whatever I swap passes smog as it if were that car, including OBD1/2 functionality, check engine lights, etc). That means I can use a: LS1/2/3/7/9 LS6 LT1/4 LSA And while the LT1/4 would be entertaining, I think the right pricepoint here is snagging a LS2 with a T56 attached to it out of a GTO (bonus for staying true to the brand), putting out a neat 400/400. Exhaust will likely need to be modified, but as long as the cats are within ~1 inch of the OEM position, everything is fine. I also found some interesting stuff around swapping a CD009 out of a 350z/370z with an adapter to fit an LSx engine, but given that the ECM has to work with the transmission that's unlikely to be a winning combo for me unless I happen across a real cheap CD009. There's also some remaining questions around managing the electronics, gauges, dash, etc. I'd like to keep everything OEM looking, will probably do hideway modern stereo and such, to keep it as is. Also, I'd like to fit AC, heater, etc, as this will be a daily driver of a sort. So, remaining things to figure out: Suspension options Brake kits ( I will be towing up to 2.5k pounds with it) Getting enough rubber on the ground to make 400hp reasonable / clear the oversize brakes, if needed Open diff will probably be a little disappointing, to say the least, so I'll have to fix that Finally, engine swap needs to have the following things addressed: Mount kit (likely this ) Exhaust modifications to fit engine with OEM cats, heat shielding Dynamat for sound custom carpet/gauges Gauges OBD2 port mounting Wiring harness/PCM Cutting/re-welding tunnel EGR Evap / gas tank mounting Intake Radiator/Cooling hoses Accessories Intake Anyone have any thoughts on the above?
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Aug 26, 2016 02:05
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Z3n posted:Anyone have any thoughts on the above? Well, you're right in theory, but in practice nobody cares about any of that because you will never have to smog the car. You'll bring it into the state, someone will look at the VIN and go "yeah that's the same car as the paperwork says," and they'll give you license plates. Then you can put whatever you want into it, and nobody will ever inspect it for safety, emissions, or otherwise; just go hog wild.
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Aug 26, 2016 02:09
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if anything you'll put a nice big red blip on their radar and enjoy smogging your 1972 as the year of your donor. For the sake of your future self, don't do this.
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Aug 26, 2016 02:46
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Z3n posted:From my research, the steps for a California engine change are as so: Why bring the government in on this? Stop over contemplating it. It's a 72 throw whatever the hell you want in there and thank the gods California isn't trying to gently caress you over on a car this old (oh but they would if they could)
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Aug 26, 2016 03:11
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Hmm, ok, I think folks here have a bit of a different approach. I'm going to insure it for a stated value policy at 40k+ and don't want to have to gently caress with the payout on it if something bad ever happens to it. Nothing like insurance denying your claim because they say the fire in the car was due to non-standard / non-approved modifications. Also, IMO, this is the right way to do things - modern engine, modern standards, if I can't meet those, can I actually consider myself a builder worth a poo poo? On top of that, if I ever got pulled by the cops and they issued a ticket to go to a ref station because they have doubts about my (clearly modified already) car, I would be hosed if I did a swap like this without the sticker. Not worth the risk of impound/etc on a car that's this valuable to me. My look at the paperwork and standards says that it doesn't change the classification of the car as a smog exempt vehicle - that goes off year of the car, not year of the engine. I'll give a call to the ref station before I commit to that, though. These sort of swaps are pretty well documented and done without major issue as long as you're not a pants on head moron who tries to tell the ref that a V12 came stock in your Honda Civic. For example: LT1 swap into 78 Camaro Jag LS1 Conversion People talk about how difficult it is, but mostly it looks like "Understand what your emissions control systems are, document your build, and do it right, so it looks OEM", which are all things I'd want to do anyways, plus a visit to the ref shop. Oh, I'll also add - my experience with plated dirt bikes indicates that if you do the job right for the laws when you do the job, you're protected in the California legal system - they're not going to retroactively revoke your plate basically ever. This is how there's still a pile of dirtbikes running around with legal plates, despite definitely not being California legal. There's some additional components in the California CVC as well (primarily around swapping engines between multiple vehicles you own) that are quite interesting, but I don't need to use that sort of exemption if there's a clear, legally protected pathway to do an engine change. Plus it opens up some interesting options if I want to do an M5 engine in a 3 series wagon one day. Z3n fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Aug 26, 2016 |
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Aug 26, 2016 03:40
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Man I feel like you are getting WAY ahead of yourself here. Insured for $40k? According to Hagerty that would be well over double what a perfectly restored concours 72 LeMans is worth. You can't just declare 40k and get that paid out no matter what your premiums are. Also yes m5 engine in a modern (past twenty years) is a whole different legal ballgame. But you do what you want/can afford.
everdave fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Aug 26, 2016 |
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Aug 26, 2016 04:16
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everdave posted:Man I feel like you are getting WAY ahead of yourself here. Insured for $40k? According to Hagerty that would be well over double what a perfectly restored concours 72 LeMans is worth. You can't just declare 40k and get that paid out no matter what your premiums are. Also yes m5 engine in a modern (past twenty years) is a whole different legal ballgame. But you do what you want/can afford. Modern doesn't matter at all in this context: https://www.bar.ca.gov/Industry/Engine_Change_Guidelines.html As long as you're replacing with a newer engine, it doesn't matter. No one ever bothers to look at the laws, they just assume a bunch before they throw their hands up and rant about how california is a communist/facist/republican state and never consider that there are ways to fix the problem. I'd never call it an engine swap when I set up the ref at the DMV though! Always an engine change, just changing the engine as per the laws here on this thing. As to insurance, well, replacement cost is the price of a new, good condition 72 Lemans, plus a new LS2, a new transmission, a new exhaust system, all ordered from the factory parts microfiche. It's quite easy to justify a 40k payout if you're expecting them for new replacement value. Even if you're not, to simply go on ebay and grab the highest priced LS2, transmission, and each individual part you'll need as a comparison to prove the value. As long as it fits somehow in the actuarial table, insurance doesn't give a gently caress, they think they're winning on the deal (and they are) so they'll write the policy. Obviously varies between insurers, how good a relationship you have with your agent, etc. Z3n fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Aug 26, 2016 |
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Aug 26, 2016 04:38
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Nobody's going to ref a smog-exempt classic American car, but you can cover your bases by giving yourself a lot more hassle up front if you wish. It'll be a good build either way.
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Aug 26, 2016 05:02
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Raluek posted:Nobody's going to ref a smog-exempt classic American car, but you can cover your bases by giving yourself a lot more hassle up front if you wish. It'll be a good build either way. I agree it's unlikely that it's gonna happen, but I'd be destroyed if the car got impounded or what have you because I didn't do the work to get it CA legal. If it was a random car, whatever, but as this one has sentimental value, I really don't want to risk it.
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Aug 26, 2016 05:12
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" All exhaust emission controlled vehicles with engine changes must be inspected by an official Referee station and must have a Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) Referee label affixed to the doorpost." Nothing pre smog year gets inspected and they don't give a gently caress. Period. End of story. If you show up to a shop and ask for an inspection on that car they will laugh you out of the loving building. No one gives a poo poo about cars that old except nevada.
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Aug 26, 2016 05:16
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Man it does not matter but I don't care what you do but your 72 LeMans is never going to be worth 40k and trying to make it smog legal is a fool's errand
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Aug 26, 2016 05:43
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iwentdoodie posted:" All exhaust emission controlled vehicles with engine changes must be inspected by an official Referee station and must have a Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) Referee label affixed to the doorpost." I found a page somewhere that discussed the differences between "exhaust emissions controlled vehicles", and smog testing - they're not the same. There's a class of vehicles in CA, split out by age and fuel type, that's not emissions controlled at all, so you can put whatever parts you want on them, CARB EPO not needed. I think it's pre 49 for gas, pre 60 or so for diesel. I'll give a ref station a ring sometime soon, though, and see if I can't get this all sorted out. If they say it's fine to do the swap without an inspection needed, and I can just drop in the paperwork at the DMV, that makes things much easier - I'll probably do the swap before I register the car here, then.
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Aug 26, 2016 06:04
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everdave posted:Man it does not matter but I don't care what you do but your 72 LeMans is never going to be worth 40k and trying to make it smog legal is a fool's errand If you don't care, why the shitposting? If you've got something to contribute besides "yarg trying to do the job right is dumb", great.
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Aug 26, 2016 06:05
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Z3n posted:I found a page somewhere that discussed the differences between "exhaust emissions controlled vehicles", and smog testing - they're not the same. There's a class of vehicles in CA, split out by age and fuel type, that's not emissions controlled at all, so you can put whatever parts you want on them, CARB EPO not needed. I think it's pre 49 for gas, pre 60 or so for diesel. As someone who has helped do this swap (not this exact car, but LSx into old poo poo) no less than four times in the past year in CA, you're fine. This is worse than talking to my mom
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Aug 26, 2016 06:07
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iwentdoodie posted:As someone who has helped do this swap (not this exact car, but LSx into old poo poo) no less than four times in the past year in CA, you're fine. There's a really clear way to get the car completely legal here, documented quite well across a bunch of different forums - I'm not sure why folks are so strung out about the idea of doing it right. I thought I wouldn't have to give the caveat about this here: I am going to try and make this car completely CA legal, half to prove that it's possible and half because it enforces a level of quality and care with the build that is important to me. If you don't like that, plz ignore those parts of the posts and focus on the bits that you do like. As always, I appreciate any new information or help folks can bring to bear on this, but "eh just live in the gray area" isn't an option that's on the table. If the BAR ref says "it's fine, just take the car to get VIN verified", that's great. I've done a lot of digging on this, and I'm pretty sure that if I want to do it right, I'm going to have to get it to a place where it passes smog as if it were a new car. That's an interesting challenge and standard to live up to, so I'm going to try and do that. Z3n fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Aug 26, 2016 |
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Aug 26, 2016 06:20
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I'm not going to weigh in on the legality because I live in a different country, just here to say I love seeing a well-done restomod so I look forward to this becoming a project thread, best of luck.
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Aug 26, 2016 10:23
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If you want to tow, the T56 might not be the best choice. The version used in the GTO and CTS-V has issues with the 5th and 6th gear OD cluster not fitting tightly on the main shaft and causing wear. When it wears too much, you need a new mainshaft and OD cluster. I've seen F-body guys complain about it too, but I don't know if they are using LT1/LS1 T56s or have swapped to a later version. I can only assume that towing will exacerbate the wear. If you are looking at ~3500lb car towing ~2500lb load for a ~6000lb GVWR, you need to look for a transmission that will be up to that duty. Some of those transmissions could include a T56 out of one of only 2000 SSRs, a T56 rebuilt with an SSR main shaft and OD cluster, or not a T56.
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Aug 27, 2016 05:11
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SNiPER_Magnum posted:If you want to tow, the T56 might not be the best choice. The version used in the GTO and CTS-V has issues with the 5th and 6th gear OD cluster not fitting tightly on the main shaft and causing wear. When it wears too much, you need a new mainshaft and OD cluster. I've seen F-body guys complain about it too, but I don't know if they are using LT1/LS1 T56s or have swapped to a later version. How's the Tremec TR-6060 for towing? If I were to find an LS3 instead of an LS2, I'd get a 6060 instead of the 56. I probably won't do a large amount of towing with it, just a couple of ~300 mile trips each year - is it worth exploring alternatives like transmission coolers?
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Aug 28, 2016 06:34
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From what I understand, a T56 Magnum is a TR6060 with a top mount shifter. I think the T56 Magnums suffer the same problem (unverified), so a TR6060 would as well (unverified). A cooler doesn't help. The problem is with the press fit between the OD cluster and the mainshaft, not heat. Will one hold up to towing a couple times a year? I don't know. You'll have to weigh those risks for yourself.
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Aug 29, 2016 01:40
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SNiPER_Magnum posted:From what I understand, a T56 Magnum is a TR6060 with a top mount shifter. I think the T56 Magnums suffer the same problem (unverified), so a TR6060 would as well (unverified). A cooler doesn't help. The problem is with the press fit between the OD cluster and the mainshaft, not heat. Ok, thanks - that's really good to know, and I'll do some digging to figure out the details that might impact the transmission I choose  I'll probably run the T56 and hope that the problem isn't major, and if it is, send it off for upgrade, pricewise that seems to make the most sense.
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Aug 29, 2016 05:25
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tr6060s look slightly different and have different synchros. i'd recommend calling a transmission shop and asking about part numbers. I've had success showing up to model specific wreckers with a six pack and asking them to let me have a measure and poke around at part numbers (if you are really nice and they arent busy sometimes they'll let you flip through the parts catalogues) NB: my t56 knowledge is mainly in commodore (g8/gto/chev ss) applications so i have no knowledge about all the more exotic forms
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Aug 29, 2016 05:30
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Big Daddy Keynes posted:tr6060s look slightly different and have different synchros. i'd recommend calling a transmission shop and asking about part numbers. I've had success showing up to model specific wreckers with a six pack and asking them to let me have a measure and poke around at part numbers (if you are really nice and they arent busy sometimes they'll let you flip through the parts catalogues) Cool, thanks - I'll take a look into this when I have some free time. Things have been a little crazy at work and such but I'll be back up by the car later this month and will take that time to pull engine block #s and do the stuff I should have done when I was up there last time. Will also be doing some dirt oval racing then, despite my motorcycle obsessions, it's good to remember where you came from.
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Sep 8, 2016 09:16
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Do folks have recommendations on where to source engine/transmission combos? Does it make more sense to find a match set to assure compatibility or should I look for the best deal on individual components? Also, advice on the following would be appreciated: Driveshaft fab decisions Aftermarket wiring vs stripping OEM harness I've done wiring harness cleanup on my racebikes so I'm reasonably competent on that front, but what's generally considered the right way to do this if I don't want to be loving with wiring harness issues in the long run? I'm assuming it's best to get the LS2 harness sorted and while I have the car torn down I may as well re-wire the OEM harness as well, just to avoid gremlins and because it should be pretty simple to do so considering I'm completely isolating the engine.
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Sep 17, 2016 07:53
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Z3n posted:Turbos are for bikes, silly! Turbo 'busa swap and quaife reversing box then. Think of the weight savings! 
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Sep 17, 2016 22:10
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Z3n posted:Do folks have recommendations on where to source engine/transmission combos? Does it make more sense to find a match set to assure compatibility or should I look for the best deal on individual components? 1. car-part.com will prob help. 2. measure cou to cou (center of ujoint) and call up your favorite local driveline shop. you'll need to factor in for max droop/compression. shouldn't be much on a road going car.. Lotta the crawler guys chop and hack oem shafts or just use square tube; don't do this. 3. painless works fantastic for restomod use. Painless for the body, build out the engine harness and integrate the two.
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Sep 23, 2016 17:07
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How have I not seen this thread? In my case, since I didn't want to chance loving it up (and the information available was a good deal more sparse) I sent the factory LS1 harness off to Speartech for him to refurbish and strip down. These days I'd probably have a go at it myself since the whole thing is far better documented than it was 12 years ago. Given that you're going to try and maintain all of the emissions devices, you might not really have any options better than stripping a factory harness, since you really won't be removing that much. I don't see any discussion on your fueling yet. Easy mode is to set up the engine with a returnless rail and use a Corvette filter/regulator near the tank.
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Sep 23, 2016 18:36
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Z3n posted:Do folks have recommendations on where to source engine/transmission combos? Does it make more sense to find a match set to assure compatibility or should I look for the best deal on individual components? IDK about you but my approach to that would be to buy an entire wrecked car, My bestie works at a car auction here in town and thanks to the ls series v8's legendary power there are plenty of wrecked ones. there was a 6.0/6speed commodore that ended up going for about 2k with about 800 - 1000 bucks in non-driveline sellables so if you end up going that route (at a more local auction to you natch). that way you could just get everything you need in one go and its all there, it also makes it easier to get it engineered for kit car use in australia (looks remarkably similar to your CARB rules from a cursory glance) because you can just grab all the emissions gubbins in one go so they all match and all play nice, the other advantage is that (if you buy it from a reputable auction) it wont be flagged as stolen because the auction sorts all that poo poo out and re-legits most of it. One thing that will kick your arse will be finding a fuel tank that will work properly for you without hanging too low or being too small to use, i did a bit of googling and it seems like a tank that might work would be a 90s rwd gm fullsize as they look pretty similar to a body ones and are properly set-up for efi. If you dont have space to store a car until it can be cannibalized i would recommend finding someone who is parting out a car with the driveline you want and hoping to god you get all the bits and that its not stolen (its probably not but you can never know with internet strangers) if you get a dbw motor make sure to grab the matching pedal and ecu otherwise its a trip to the dealer. If it were me tho, i would probably use either a dirty old 4 bbl or one of those fancy pants efi systems so you get to keep having a chrome air cleaner but i think what you are doing really appeals to my spergy side immensely so hats off. E:) Other bonus to buying a wrecked car, if it was going fast enough to wrap around a tree then it was probably running ok. big dong wanter fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Sep 23, 2016 |
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Sep 23, 2016 20:54
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Big Daddy Keynes posted:IDK about you but my approach to that would be to buy an entire wrecked car, My bestie works at a car auction here in town and thanks to the ls series v8's legendary power there are plenty of wrecked ones. there was a 6.0/6speed commodore that ended up going for about 2k with about 800 - 1000 bucks in non-driveline sellables so if you end up going that route (at a more local auction to you natch). that way you could just get everything you need in one go and its all there, it also makes it easier to get it engineered for kit car use in australia (looks remarkably similar to your CARB rules from a cursory glance) because you can just grab all the emissions gubbins in one go so they all match and all play nice, the other advantage is that (if you buy it from a reputable auction) it wont be flagged as stolen because the auction sorts all that poo poo out and re-legits most of it. One thing that will kick your arse will be finding a fuel tank that will work properly for you without hanging too low or being too small to use, i did a bit of googling and it seems like a tank that might work would be a 90s rwd gm fullsize as they look pretty similar to a body ones and are properly set-up for efi. I think the only cars that came with an LS here are the '98-'02 Camaro, '04-'06 GTO, and the 5th gen Camaros and any C5/C6 Vette that would both be too expensive to grab at auction. You're right about the fuel tank; '96 Impala SS was the last to have a rear filler, and they're already set up for EFI. That's the direction I intend to go for my Chevelle; it's somewhat documented on LS1tech I think. Don't put a carburetor on an LS motor.
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Sep 23, 2016 23:26
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Thanks all for the guidance - I'll be heading up to Portland tomorrow if I'm not getting sick, so will have more on the car then. As it turns out, I've recently snagged a lot more responsibility at work so that might slow things down a bit  But fingers crossed, we'll see what happens!
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Sep 24, 2016 05:14
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Raluek posted:I think the only cars that came with an LS here are the '98-'02 Camaro, '04-'06 GTO, and the 5th gen Camaros and any C5/C6 Vette that would both be too expensive to grab at auction. You're right about the fuel tank; '96 Impala SS was the last to have a rear filler, and they're already set up for EFI. That's the direction I intend to go for my Chevelle; it's somewhat documented on LS1tech I think. Also, G8 and the Chevy SS / Caprice. Of course there are probably more Escalades from one year of production than there are Zeta sedans in the US in total. And yes, unless you have to for rules or something, carbed LSx engines are just wrong. On an older V8, sure, it might be an option to do it cheap if you start with a bare longblock. No LSx has ever had a factory carb, so there's no garbage-tier cheap carb intake manifold available. The ones that do exist are expensive, and then you either need an expensive adapter to drive a Ford distributor up front, or a computer box to run the coils from the cam/crank sensors. You could easily scrounge a Vortec intake manifold, fuel rail, fuel injectors, ECM and wiring harness for less than the cost of the carb intake alone. IOwnCalculus fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Sep 24, 2016 |
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Sep 24, 2016 06:11
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IOwnCalculus posted:Also, G8 and the Chevy SS / Caprice. Of course there are probably more Escalades from one year of production than there are Zeta sedans in the US in total. Oh yeah, forgot about the SS and G8. I think they both fall into the "too new to find junked for cheap" pile with the Camaro and Corvette, though. Can't use an Escalade L92 in a car in California! unless you pretend it's an LS3, but I dunno how you'd fudge the numbers
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Sep 24, 2016 08:17
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Raluek posted:Oh yeah, forgot about the SS and G8. I think they both fall into the "too new to find junked for cheap" pile with the Camaro and Corvette, though. Can't use an Escalade L92 in a car in California! unless you pretend it's an LS3, but I dunno how you'd fudge the numbers You can on one this old. They seriously do not give a gently caress. Also, Craigslist is gold for LS cars. Last week I saw an 01 Z28 with 101k, 6 speed car that was running/driving with rear end damage and a lost title for less than 2k.
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Sep 24, 2016 19:51
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So far the thread has been about engine and drivetrain mods, I want to hear about the body and interior! The paint is shiny (although dirty) in the pictures, but did gramps put a quality paint job on it that still holds up? If so I can't wait to see it. Is there rust? Portland cars characteristically don't really rust out despite the rain, there's no salt and not much gravel used in the winter, and the rain is really clean so for the most part cars up there just get a good rinse when you drive them in the rain.
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Sep 24, 2016 20:46
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