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Yep. In fact, he also addressed that by noting that rich people take the "safer" drugs, like cocaine and heroin, which is why we don't hear about killings in upscale parts of town. And I only saw this now while pulling up that link, but I honestly can't believe that he literally said "my order is to destroy."
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Aug 26, 2016 09:30
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Heroin is a "safer drug"? What kind of deadly-rear end poo poo is going around over there? Heroin and other opiates are killing more people here than any other drug by far.
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Aug 26, 2016 13:48
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PT6A posted:Heroin is a "safer drug"? What kind of deadly-rear end poo poo is going around over there? Heroin and other opiates are killing more people here than any other drug by far. It's not. It's really not. It's just that shabu/crystal meth is the primary drug of the lower classes, while the suburbanites use cocaine and heroin. So really all he's saying is "I don't want to have the police conduct warrantless house-to-house searches of rich-rear end people like we're currently doing in the slums, so I'm going to make the completely unsubstantiated claim that heroin and cocaine are safer so that I have an excuse to not need to do that"
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Aug 26, 2016 13:54
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gradenko_2000 posted:So really all he's saying is "I don't want to have the police conduct warrantless house-to-house searches of rich-rear end people like we're currently doing in the slums, so I'm going to make the completely unsubstantiated claim that heroin and cocaine are safer so that I have an excuse to not need to do that." So it's basically the crack/cocaine dichotomy we have in the US. 
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Aug 26, 2016 14:12
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PT6A posted:Heroin is a "safer drug"? What kind of deadly-rear end poo poo is going around over there? Heroin and other opiates are killing more people here than any other drug by far. Heroin and cocaine are disproportionately more dangerous to people who cannot keep up a safe and consistent supply while also eating well and still taking personal medical care. Remove malnutrition-related illnesses and super-TB from the equation and heroin comes out a safer drug than cigarettes and alcohol. In areas where the poor do not use heroin and cocaine and make it look dirty when they die of horrific treatment resistant plague diseases it doesn't carry a social stigma. This view also extends into a historical perspective, eg. the British popularisation of Opium right up until banning it because a few chinese people and blues musicians arrived with addictions. When you remove a proper diet, access to good medical care, and a consistent supply, and the drug is crystal meth, it becomes easy to draw a popular distinction between bankers saving your finances and having a bit of charlie and crazed-looking poor people raiding houses.
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Aug 26, 2016 14:14
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How long until the death squads go from targeting poor users/dealers, to targeting foreign sex tourists? Asking for a friend.
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Aug 26, 2016 14:24
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Spangly A posted:Heroin and cocaine are disproportionately more dangerous to people who cannot keep up a safe and consistent supply while also eating well and still taking personal medical care. Remove malnutrition-related illnesses and super-TB from the equation and heroin comes out a safer drug than cigarettes and alcohol. Opium is a little bit different from heroin.
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Aug 26, 2016 14:27
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ocrumsprug posted:How long until the death squads go from targeting poor users/dealers, to targeting foreign sex tourists? Asking for a friend. You know, if death squads went around hunting rich pedophiles from the first world, instead of poor drug addicts, I'm guessing there'd be significantly less outrage over the EJKs. Duerte should look into it. EDIT: And regarding heroin safety: it's "becoming" a crisis in North America because heroin use is expanding into well-off populations, and it's killing plenty of people, suburbanites and poor people alike.
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Aug 26, 2016 14:35
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Argue posted:Yep. In fact, he also addressed that by noting that rich people take the "safer" drugs, like cocaine and heroin, which is why we don't hear about killings in upscale parts of town. And I only saw this now while pulling up that link, but I honestly can't believe that he literally said "my order is to destroy." To add to this, my wife's classmate from high school and her classmate's boyfriend were caught in the past couple of weeks with a lot of E and they found lots of paraphernalia and a money counter machine in their apartment, suggesting that they were dealing. They haven't been executed (yet) and it looks like they'll go through the regular justice system instead because they're from well off families.
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Aug 26, 2016 14:40
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ihatepants posted:To add to this, my wife's classmate from high school and her classmate's boyfriend were caught in the past couple of weeks with a lot of E and they found lots of paraphernalia and a money counter machine in their apartment, suggesting that they were dealing. They haven't been executed (yet) and it looks like they'll go through the regular justice system instead because they're from well off families. drat, she was that DJ, wasn't she?
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Aug 26, 2016 15:23
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Background: Last August 7, the President read and released a list of more than 150 officials that he claims is or was involved in the drug trade. The list is simply names, with no corroborating evidence, and no official charges have been filed against any of the people named. Some of the officials named on the list were members of the judiciary. The Chief Justice of the country's Supreme Court wrote a letter to the President, clarifying that a number of the Judges named in the list could not possibly have had links to the drug trade anymore, because they're either dead, or resigned, or are handling cases and trials that do not involve drugs. The Chief Justice also instructed her Judges to please not voluntarily surrender themselves (as others have done) until and unless charges have been filed against them. She also asked that they be issued licenses to carry firearms for personal defense (as the expectation is that being named as a drug-involved figure will leave one open to being attacked by vigilante groups). The President then shot back with a threat of declaring Martial Law, if the Judiciary will not "cooperate". This was followed up by a statement later in the week by the President's chief legal counsel claiming that he would be entirely within his rights to do so, given the purported gravity of the drug situation in the country. Five days after the initial release of the list and as this affair played out, the President then apologized to the Chief Justice. In the news today: The President, in a speech, launched into a new tirade against the Judiciary when he said that the Chief Justice's emphasis on a need for warrants before making arrests would "promote anarchy" quote:“Madame Justice, you are again wrong when you said, ‘Do not allow yourself arrested without a warrant.’ [More people will die because of that],” he said. What doesn't make sense is that the Chief Justice was referring to a scenario wherein judges might feel compelled to turn themselves in just because they were named-and-shamed through the President's drug blacklist, or that judges might get "visited" by the police and "invited" to turn themselves in, sans a warrant. She advised the judges to not do that. Whereas the scenario that the President is describing, of making a warrantless arrest if one sees a crime-in-progress, is entirely different and does not apply. To say nothing of the direct accusation that waiting for warrants before making arrests will lead to anachy. Within the same speech, he also related a story about how he once threatened to shoot a judge who didn't want to sign an arrest warrant during his days as a prosecutor. [The quote is entirely in Filipino, so this is my translation] quote:These judges, they're sarcastic idiots ... even me, when I was a public prosecutor, I don't have to name them but, there was this one judge, I really kicked him. Kicked him right there in his office. And then the audience laughed.
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Aug 26, 2016 15:53
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gradenko_2000 posted:And then the audience laughed. Never go to the Philippines, I guess is the moral of that story.
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Aug 26, 2016 15:56
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Didn't know they made a Filipino version of the shield
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Aug 26, 2016 17:29
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So if the government is gearing up to purge part of the judiciary along with all these officials then is this essentially a coup? Kurtofan posted:Didn't know they made a Filipino version of the shield This is more like Judge Dredd honestly.
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Aug 26, 2016 17:36
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It's not a coup, since there was a legitimate transfer of power. A revolution, maybe.
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Aug 26, 2016 19:30
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People said dr m (Malaysia) sacking the Chief Justice was the worst ever transgression against the judiciary but the Philippines just must take the crown
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Aug 27, 2016 04:30
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I wish I'd taken pics, but I just came back from a local comic con and one booth was selling Duterte sculptures of him in various action movie poses, with the most prominent one in front being Duterte wearing the Punisher's costume and dual wielding pistols. It's great and all that he established a 911 hotline that works, and that he supposedly put a stop to the bullet scam at the airport, and his supporters can keep pointing to that and saying that it's why they voted for him, but I feel these sculptures betray the actual fantasies that they've constructed in their heads. Edit: vvvvv who wants to explain Taglish to this guy Argue fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Aug 27, 2016 |
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Aug 27, 2016 13:27
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I was watching finipinio news on SBS and they talk in tagalog but they occasionally speak a complete sentance in perfect English WTF is up with that
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Aug 27, 2016 14:02
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:It's not a coup, since there was a legitimate transfer of power. A revolution, maybe. A transfer of power that starts out legitimately can still spin into being a coup. In fact I'd say that a revolution launched from within the state apparatus and aimed at a different part of the same state apparatus is a pretty clear indicator of a coup.
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Aug 27, 2016 17:58
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Helsing posted:So if the government is gearing up to purge part of the judiciary along with all these officials then is this essentially a coup? The administration is, at least in their words and their posturing, absolutely looking to purge anyone who isn't going to toe the line on letting the President have his way on pretty much everything. He's basically setting himself up to use his 90%+ approval rating and fearmongering drug trafficking as an existential threat as justifications to headbutt Congress and the Supreme Court all the way to a constitutional crisis unless they play ball. I just don't know about the semantic tangle of whether or not that's considered a coup. doodlebugs posted:I was watching finipinio news on SBS and they talk in tagalog but they occasionally speak a complete sentance in perfect English WTF is up with that The national and official language of the Philippines is Filipino, which is a combination of largely the Tagalog language spoken by about 90%+ of the population, plus loan words from provincial dialects, plus Spanish, plus English. Except speaking Filipino fluently enough to use it 100% of the time is rare, and especially when there are modern words and phrases that have no good translation into Filipino. So most people fall back on reverting to English whenever they want to say something that Filipino either can't cover or they're not fluent enough to know how to cover. Switching back and forth between the two is called "Taglish", or a portmanteau of Tagalog and English.
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Aug 27, 2016 18:15
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Given that the drug situation is not actually nearly as severe as Duterte portrays it, why exactly is Duterte so incredibly popular? I mean, Trump certainly has a significant support base in the US, but nothing near the almost ubiquitous support Duterte seems to have.
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Aug 27, 2016 18:28
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Homogeny, meet pride
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Aug 27, 2016 18:47
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Ytlaya posted:Given that the drug situation is not actually nearly as severe as Duterte portrays it, why exactly is Duterte so incredibly popular? I mean, Trump certainly has a significant support base in the US, but nothing near the almost ubiquitous support Duterte seems to have. Drug use and drug dealing is super vilified in east Asia so setting a platform based on eliminating it is never not good. Tying societal ills like corruption (probably even more common than drugs) to it is just a "logical" extension of that. This is also compounded with a lack of drug education.
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Aug 27, 2016 18:47
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I don't know about the Philippines in general but there are plenty of historical examples of voters being very enthused about killing people who are seen as socially unfit or parasitic. There's a lot more blood-lust in a modern electorate than most poli sci wonks seemingly want to acknowledge. Time and again we see examples of how a non-trivial part of the population of many countries gets an immense satisfaction from seeing people it resents getting hurt or killed. gradenko_2000 posted:
I don't really know how "precise" the term coup is anyway. I brought it up because what's happening here seems reminiscent of the "counter-coup" that a lot of people are accusing Erdogan of running in Turkey after the failed military takeover.
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Aug 27, 2016 18:51
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Ytlaya posted:Given that the drug situation is not actually nearly as severe as Duterte portrays it, why exactly is Duterte so incredibly popular? I mean, Trump certainly has a significant support base in the US, but nothing near the almost ubiquitous support Duterte seems to have. The first thing to remember is that drug-users are, more-or-less, indefensible. They're somewhat of a perfect scapegoat for Otherization because even in a scenario where a person admits that the police and vigilantes are killing drug-users and drug-pushers willy-nilly, it's still very much an acceptable thing because for one they were already literally breaking the law (as opposed to, say, what happens to African-Americans in the US) and for another you're supposedly sparing the rest of greater society from other crimes they would have done had they lived or were not persecuted. Whenever people bring up that summary execution of drug-users is a violation of human rights, it's a very common retort here to say that the people who were/will be raped and/or murdered by crazed drug addicts did/would have their human rights also violated, and why aren't you caring about those? . The second thing to note is that Philippine politics prior to Duterte is (at least perceived to be) very establishment, and very centrist. Imagine an Overton Window spanning from maybe George HW Bush on the far-right end, and Bill Clinton on the liberal end, with lots of patronage politics and corruption to boot. And then Duterte runs on a populist, anti-establishment platform: 1. The Aquino administration's economic gains were a waste because it wasn't felt by the common man 2. There is lots and lots of corruption in the system, which slows everything to a crawl, including physically slowing everything to a crawl because the previous administration failed to address the traffic problem in Manila 3. The drug problem is severe and dire and the people are tired of criminality 4. I, Rodrigo Duterte, can fix all these because during my time as Davao Mayor, I rid the city of crime so that people feel safe walking along the streets, I implemented a 911 system which shows that I can cut through all of the bureaucratic red tape, and I have instituted reforms which made Davao a model city, something that even the previous administration has acknowledged 5. The outgoing administration wants you to vote for their next Liberal Party candidate in the name of consistency and continuation with the previous administration. That would be wrong, because you're just going to get 6 more years of bad rule. Vote for me. I will upend the system, and my campaign slogan is "Change is Coming" . The third thing to note is that the Philippine presidential election does not have primaries and does not have run-offs. All of the candidates are running at the same time, and whoever gets the most votes, wins. So Duterte wins with 39.01% of the vote. Mar Roxas, the candidate from Aquino's Liberal Party trying to run on an image of incumbency, comes in second place with 23.45% of the vote. Grace Poe, another moderate liberal that ran as an independent, got 21.39% of the vote. And then Jejomar Binay, the kleptocratic former Vice President, got 12.73% of the vote. To put this in perspective, imagine a four-way race between Donald Trump 2016, John Kerry 2004, Joe Lieberman 2000, and Jeb Bush 2016 (and the outgoing President is Jimmy Carter). Nobody votes for the establishment conservative (Jeb) because he's already been outed as a piece of poo poo, the Democratic vote is split between Kerry and Lieberman, and Trump wins with a slim plurality. . All of these factors combine to produce a nominally wildly popular President, because of the perception that he slew (or will slay) a lumbering, corrupt system, and especially since steps he has taken using Executive fiat in his first 50 days further reinforces the belief that he is a man of action that will get things done, goddamn the red tape. The criticisms leveled against him as a brutish thug tend to bounce off of him because A. we're supposed to have already known that he was going to be like that going in, since that was already his image as Mayor of Davao and that seemed to work for Davao, so we're supposed to excuse it, and B. because of "well, who're you going to support instead? Everyone else sucks"-style all-sides-are-equally-bad thinking. There's a bunch of stuff I'm glossing over or heavily summarizing, such as the polarization of social media within a 6-month period and Candidate Duterte's disinformation campaign, the real failings of the Aquino administration that made it difficult to defend against them, the background of how the liberal moderate vote ended up being split between Roxas and Poe, and others that we may eventually get into over this thread, but this post is long enough. Ask away if there's anything you'd want to be elaborated upon.
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Aug 28, 2016 02:25
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The FPTP thing in the Philippines is pretty maddening too all things considered. The whole government structure was copied wholesale from the US at the time iirc with little consideration as to how and why those particular things were put into place. With an essentially cemented two party system, FPTP is no different than most other forms of voting, but with more than two very large political organizations at play, FPTP becomes a nightmarish thing particularly because it seems there's no galvanizing reason to merge parties beyond "gently caress that guy/party" and once that's done, the whole coalition/makeshift party breaks apart because of corruption and favoritism or the fear of it happening to them, putting all of the people from one of the pre-merged parties into positions of power and all of the others told to hit the bricks.
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Aug 28, 2016 02:36
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gradenko_2000 posted:The first thing to remember is that drug-users are, more-or-less, indefensible. I would ask what their response is when you point out that the families of the executed will be fractured and more likely to fall into poverty and substance abuse, but it already sounds like Duterte voters=Trump voters so there's probably no point in asking them.
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Aug 28, 2016 02:40
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Xelkelvos posted:The FPTP thing in the Philippines is pretty maddening too all things considered. The whole government structure was copied wholesale from the US at the time iirc with little consideration as to how and why those particular things were put into place. With an essentially cemented two party system, FPTP is no different than most other forms of voting, but with more than two very large political organizations at play, FPTP becomes a nightmarish thing particularly because it seems there's no galvanizing reason to merge parties beyond "gently caress that guy/party" and once that's done, the whole coalition/makeshift party breaks apart because of corruption and favoritism or the fear of it happening to them, putting all of the people from one of the pre-merged parties into positions of power and all of the others told to hit the bricks. You've been able to put into words something I've been struggling to express for a long time with regards to the party system in the Philippines. Because it's absolutely true what you said - there aren't really any parties in the Philippines because everyone just jumps ship to whoever won as soon as the elections were over. Like, international news made a big deal over how President Aquino had a Supermajority in both houses of Congress after the 2013 midterms, but nobody ever made the connection that the only way he pulled that off was because of massed Congressional defections from other parties into the Liberal Party boat. And that happened again this year: the PDP-Laban Party that Duterte ran under was a rump party with one governorship, one sitting Senator and maybe a handful of Representatives prior to the election, but then just days after the election when it became clear that Duterte was the Presumptive President, they had tons of defections and were able to declare a Supermajority in the House, and then it was the Liberal Party that was reduced to a rump.
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Aug 28, 2016 02:51
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quote:Duterte’s methods may be bloodier than those typically employed by American prohibitionists, but his logic is similar, casting peaceful transactions—the exchange of money for psychoactive substances—as acts of aggression that pose an existential threat to the nation. This is war, after all, so there is no room for legal niceties. quote:As far as William J. Bennett is concerned, that’s a shame. Back in 1989, when he was running the Office of National Drug Control Policy under Clinton’s predecessor, Bennett said “there’s no moral problem” with beheading drug dealers—the preferred method in Saudi Arabia. Although beheading might be legally problematic, he said on Larry King Live, it would be “morally proportional to the nature of the offense.” And Bennett ought to know, since he has a Ph.D. in philosophy. “I used to teach ethics,” he told Larry King. “Trust me.” The following year, Los Angeles Police Chief Daryl Gates took Bennett’s logic a step further, telling a Senate committee that casual drug users “ought to be taken out and shot” as traitors in the war on drugs. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2016/08/25/rodrigo-dutertes-murderous-war-on-drugs-follows-american-logic/#4ce13fb442b0 I simply cannot grasp the logic of prohibitionists. Sell drugs to someone who ends up abusing that drug and they want the 'dealer' to go to jail or face corporal punishment. Sell a hot rod to a kid who ends up abusing his horsepower and wraps himself around a tree and 'the drat rev head got what was coming to him!' KingEup fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Aug 28, 2016 |
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Aug 28, 2016 03:37
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http://www.rappler.com/newsbreak/iq/144331-data-drug-problem-philippinesquote:EXPLAINER: How serious is the PH drug problem? Here's the data
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Aug 28, 2016 04:02
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This thread is super interesting and really enjoying it. Keep it coming!
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Aug 28, 2016 18:34
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I'm also enjoying it.
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Aug 29, 2016 01:58
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The front-page news in one of our national broadsheets yesterday was this:quote:‘Junkies are not humans’ Please no one give this man a smartphone and access to Twitter.
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Aug 29, 2016 03:46
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Super interesting. I work with almost all Filipinos (most of them seem to gravitate to night shift at hospitals) and some like that the voting system doesn't seem corrupt anymore yet dislike the current president.
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Aug 29, 2016 09:11
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gradenko_2000 posted:The front-page news in one of our national broadsheets yesterday was this: agreed, why do you care so much about unpersons 
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Aug 29, 2016 09:33
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blackguy32 posted:Super interesting. I work with almost all Filipinos (most of them seem to gravitate to night shift at hospitals) and some like that the voting system doesn't seem corrupt anymore yet dislike the current president. 2016 was the fourth election cycle that was done under computerized/automated voting. The last manual election, done in 2004 and lead to the election of Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo (her first full term, but her second term in general) was racked with allegations of massive vote fraud. So yeah, the actual winner of the elections notwithstanding, it's been pretty nice that the electoral process itself has been a lot more trustworthy.
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Aug 29, 2016 11:08
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President Duterte tells Senator De Lima to 'hang herself'quote:MANILA, Philippines – President Rodrigo Duterte wants his fiercest critic in Congress, Senator Leila De Lima, to step down. Emphasis mine. That's a direct quote, no translation.
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Aug 29, 2016 12:06
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"You are immoral!" *goes back to encouraging the killings of drug users, fondly remembers that time he literally said he wanted to rape a woman*
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Aug 29, 2016 12:47
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Schubalts posted:"You are immoral!" *goes back to encouraging the killings of drug users, fondly remembers that time he literally said he wanted to rape a woman* Since, a priori, drug users and loose women are literally the worst, he is clearly being very moral.
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Aug 29, 2016 13:06
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This is unreal.
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Aug 29, 2016 15:59
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