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I am reading "ignoring all costs" right? Including play cost?
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Sep 20, 2016 21:55
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StashAugustine posted:I am reading "ignoring all costs" right? Including play cost? Yes, it's actually that good.
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Sep 20, 2016 21:56
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I mean I'm playing Restructure in Weyland anyway so I guess I import tagging + Closed Accounts and basically guarantee a SEA/Scorch via economy. I really hope there's more Mausolous-style ICE in the rest of the cycle but hope is a lie.
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Sep 20, 2016 22:02
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I know there is some power jank between Stinson and Lateral Growth but I'm phone posting from the break room at work, so I can't think of it right now.
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Sep 21, 2016 00:12
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Is anyone going to mention that Stinson is a freking How I Met Your Mother reference? Netrunner is dead.
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Sep 21, 2016 04:56
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Static Equilibrium posted:You also can't lie to the runner if they ask. I assume "I don't remember" is always a legal answer to "was this the shock I ran into earlier," but IMO trying to angle-shoot like that is a pretty lovely way to play this game. Well, actually, on the same page: quote:However, if a player that has access to information about the game or a card and chooses to verbally share it with his or her opponent, that player is not required to tell the truth. Bluffing is an important aspect of Android: Netrunner and is allowed Sounds good to me, tbh. I don't consider it angle-shooting or lovely at all in a game that's based so heavily around gaining information.
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Sep 21, 2016 09:11
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Stinson also ignores the extra click cost on Blue Level, right? Still, to use him on turn 1, you can't install ice, and at any point later in the game, how do you plan on making the runner that poor? He might be a way to bounce back if the runner is slightly richer than you, and you force him into a must-pay trace like Midseasons, but I don't really see a way for Weyland to make the runner poor without spending a ton of influence on more NBN stuff.
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Sep 21, 2016 10:08
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AgentF posted:Well, actually, on the same page: "If a card is temporarily revealed, it is derived information for as long as the player(s) is able to uniquely identify that card." "A player cannot misrepresent derived information" and inferring that because an installed card is uniquely identifiable as long as it remains installed (you're not allowed to move installed cards until they're trashed), you can't misrepresent what is on a previously exposed/accessed card. Now that I reread the section on hidden information, I think it's pretty reasonable to interpret it either way--although I think it's still unambiguously okay to mark stuff you see with "revealed" tokens of some sort or another. At the end of the day, I don't think having to play a memory game (or, if you're using tokens to mark seen cards, a bookkeeping game) against asset spam decks is all that fun or interesting, and I don't think lying to your opponent about things that have happened on previous turns adds any depth to the bluffing aspect of the game (other than, I guess, the first time you get someone who hasn't played with you before), but if your playgroup disagrees, more power to you I guess. fomo sacer fucked around with this message at 10:53 on Sep 21, 2016 |
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Sep 21, 2016 10:49
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ZorajitZorajit posted:Is anyone going to mention that Stinson is a freking How I Met Your Mother reference? Netrunner is dead. Relax, we survived Archer and It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.
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Sep 21, 2016 12:00
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Stinson seems like a great NBN card. He'll pair nicely with Closed Accounts, Reversed Accounts, Midseasons and Breaking News.
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Sep 21, 2016 13:02
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Zephro posted:Stinson seems like a great NBN card. He'll pair nicely with Closed Accounts, Reversed Accounts, Midseasons and Breaking News. Like every other decent Weyland card.
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Sep 21, 2016 13:19
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Zephro posted:Stinson seems like a great NBN card. He'll pair nicely with Closed Accounts, Reversed Accounts, Midseasons and Breaking News. None of those are transactions.
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Sep 21, 2016 14:35
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The Deleter posted:None of those are transactions. quote:Like every other decent Weyland card.
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Sep 21, 2016 14:40
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To be honest, though, Corps could use some love at the moment, Runners seem really, really strong. In fact the game seems to be on a huge power upswing with the last two cycles and I'm not sure I like the effect it's having.
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Sep 21, 2016 14:42
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Escalation release date is Oct 6. Pack yo plascretes.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:02
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sonatinas posted:Escalation release date is Oct 6. Pack yo plascretes. Means we might get full spoilers by the end of next week.
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Sep 22, 2016 01:35
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I'm wondering if some of the art is a reference to the soon to be rotated out characters. Wizzard's about eat a missile, Chaos Theory's dads are fighting, I expect to see something bad happening to Andromeda soon.
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Sep 22, 2016 07:01
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Maybe she'll hack her way to being un-dispossessed and give up now that she's rich again. Poor CT :/
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Sep 22, 2016 07:18
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So I've been playing for a while, but I'm not yet caught up on all the data packs, and I don't get to play as much as I like. Recently I've been playing with a friend when we get the chance, and we finally got to have a go with the Worlds Champion decks. They were lots of fun to play with and I feel like I managed to pilot them both with a reasonable amount of skill, so I guess that means I'm getting better at this game? Certainly for very casual play they worked well. I have a couple of questions though - Architect lets you install any card that can be installed - So I could us it to put down ICE, an agenda, an asset or an upgrade? It says ignoring all install costs, so do I have to play it face up, or could I install it face down, and if i did would I then still have to pay the costs when I did rez it? Also, if I am tagged as the runner, and the corp tries to trash a card that has a trash ability, can I trigger that ability (or does the corps trashing of it trigger it) - Basically, if he tries to trash my Hades Shard, (assuming I'm tagged and it's not protected with WNP or Fall Guy or something), can I trigger it at that point?
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Sep 22, 2016 23:35
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There is no response timing in Netrunner except for Prevent effects, so no.
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Sep 22, 2016 23:42
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krakagar posted:I have a couple of questions though - Architect lets you install any card that can be installed - So I could us it to put down ICE, an agenda, an asset or an upgrade? quote:It says ignoring all install costs, so do I have to play it face up, or could I install it face down, and if i did would I then still have to pay the costs when I did rez it? But you'd have to pay the rez cost in the normal way if you want to rez the ICE. edit: Corp cards are only installed face-up if they explicitly say so. 99% are installed face down, and that's not a cost, it's just the way the game works. quote:Also, if I am tagged as the runner, and the corp tries to trash a card that has a trash ability, can I trigger that ability (or does the corps trashing of it trigger it) - Basically, if he tries to trash my Hades Shard, (assuming I'm tagged and it's not protected with WNP or Fall Guy or something), can I trigger it at that point? quote:General Zephro fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Sep 22, 2016 |
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Sep 22, 2016 23:42
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Zephro posted:Nope. The active player's effects trigger first. From https://www.reddit.com/r/Netrunner/comments/2f8qj8/netrunner_beginner_faq/ To expand on this a little bit more, you have various windows of opportunity to use activated abilities, with the current player getting the first chance, then the other player, then back to the current player, until both players choose to not use abilities. Note that i said use, as in they fully activate and resolve, there is no response. Because of these windows, if you're tagged and want to use your Hades Shard, you have to use it before the Corp's first click. Or maybe the corp doesn't trash it on their first click, you could use it in between their first and second, etc. But as soon as the corp says they're going to pay to trash it, it's toast.
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Sep 22, 2016 23:49
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Ok thanks. CodfishCartographer posted:To expand on this a little bit more, you have various windows of opportunity to use activated abilities, with the current player getting the first chance, then the other player, then back to the current player, until both players choose to not use abilities. Note that i said use, as in they fully activate and resolve, there is no response. Because of these windows, if you're tagged and want to use your Hades Shard, you have to use it before the Corp's first click. Or maybe the corp doesn't trash it on their first click, you could use it in between their first and second, etc. But as soon as the corp says they're going to pay to trash it, it's toast. Ok thanks. This all makes sense and is as I expected. But in that case, if I use Fall Guy to prevent the trashing, does the opportunity then revert back to the corp before I get a chance to activate Hades?
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Sep 23, 2016 06:53
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krakagar posted:Ok thanks. Since Hades is a paid ability- one that doesn't require a click to activate- the timing would go: Click one- trash Hades Shard, interrupted and prevented by Fall Guy. Then between click 1 and 2 the runner trashes Hades Shard and accesses Archives. The corp could activate a paid ability between the two clicks as well and go first- ie use Jackson to clear out Archives before you pop Hades- but IIRC there's no paid ability resource trash.
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Sep 23, 2016 13:59
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How's people's experience with Rumour Mill now that it's out? It seems to cause almost as many quits on Jinteki as MoH; I watched a guy playing RP concede when it was 2-0 and the runner played it because his entire scoring strategy was just wrecked instantly and he had no way of ever clearing it. I'll probably play Sol for a while since it suffers least between News Hound, its own currents, and BN/15 minutes to clear it out. But I guess non-FA corp decks are probably going to want to start running currents in case they run into it. Zephro fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Sep 23, 2016 |
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Sep 23, 2016 22:04
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My plan is to weep bitterly that my Accelerated Shutdown Boom deck was killed before it could even exist.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:16
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Outside of the garbage News Now Hour defensive upgrades are basically dead to Rumor Mill with no to little counterplay, especially Jinteki which needs 4/2 agendas.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:16
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Honestly, I rarely see it actually played, but the fact that it exists in the meta has actually helped criminal quite a bit, even if they don't run it. It's a strong card, but you can manage quite a few different scoring windows in order to kill it if really needed. CI7 does not like it, particularly if you slap a clot out, but it's not the whole "sky is falling' that people were making it out to be. If your deck loses to a Rumour Mill being played, it'll probably lose to a councilman or a Pol-op as well. It's actually pretty easy to play around over all. But yes, jinteki glacier has basically gone away with it coming out.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:17
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It's awful when it's out but currents are pretty flimsy, so it can be played around. The issue is that a) when it gets played, the runner is usually gonna exploit it to the full and will likely steal at least one agenda that turn and b) removal options are limited. Jinteki is kinda screwed because they have one current and rarely score from hand. Weyland can score Hostiles and have two kinda good currents. NBN are NBN. HB are boned. E: Forgot about Clones Are Not People. That's highly specific though? The Deleter fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Sep 23, 2016 |
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Sep 23, 2016 22:34
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The Deleter posted:It's awful when it's out but currents are pretty flimsy, so it can be played around. The issue is that a) when it gets played, the runner is usually gonna exploit it to the full and will likely steal at least one agenda that turn and b) removal options are limited. Jinteki is kinda screwed because they have one current and rarely score from hand. Weyland can score Hostiles and have two kinda good currents. NBN are NBN. HB are boned. HB has biotic labor and can set up a decently taxing glacier.
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Sep 23, 2016 23:01
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HB also has two 3/2 agendas, one of which has a super good effect, so they can afford to play the never advance game and really only want to sneak out a single 5/3 scoring window. Jinteki's 3/2 is garbage (Philotic is all right but not really glacier and also 1 per deck) and their ice is less taxing so they rely more on Caprice/Batty. Councilman/PolOp are nasty but can be played around, but Rumor Mill basically makes it impossible to reliably score a 4/2. It's a pity since I really liked Palana glacier.
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Sep 23, 2016 23:19
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Everyone popping jackson immediately is definitely the most entertaining part of Rumor Mill being a card.
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Sep 23, 2016 23:52
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I honestly think that 4/2s and 5/3s are a huge problem with Netrunner’s design. Actually "anything that isn’t a 3/2" might be more accurate. I feel like the game would benefit a lot from having just one type of agenda, with points varying based on their effect - or better yet, just make it “score 4 agendas to win” since that’s basically what the game is now anyways. Having varying advance counts creates varying gameplay in theory, with opportunity for bluffs and traps, but in reality it’s almost always transparent what is and isn’t an agenda. 4 and 5 advancement agendas are just giant pains in the rear end at this point in the game’s life - they don’t feel good to put in your deck, since if they get sniped it’s a huge swing, and they’re almost impossible to actually score out since they require two entire turns of dedication and are extremely obvious. Obviously this isn’t a change they can just make happen, but I really wish it were possible to do so.
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Sep 23, 2016 23:54
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GFI actually feels really good to put in your deck. Edit: your metagame must be very different than the ones I've played in over the past few year because GFI gets scored all the dang time, and prior to that the arguable best deck in the game was based around scoring 4/2->4/2->5/3. fomo sacer fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Sep 24, 2016 |
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Sep 23, 2016 23:56
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4 pointers are good if they're really good- Nisei mk II is easily the posterchild for this. 5 pointers are more problematic, exacerbated because a lot of them are just kinda bad.
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Sep 24, 2016 00:05
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I agree. It's hard to justify running 5/3s outside of TFP and GFI, and 4/2s outside of Nisei, Oaktown, and NAPD (Efficiency Committee is good but you're usually scoring it out of hand so it doesn't count), just because there aren't any other good options (and even then Weyland still sometimes ran a single, effectively blank, 5/3 before GFI was printed as a tutor target to close out games). However, I think giving deckbuilders a choice to need fewer scores and gaining a couple card slots in exchange for making those scores much harder has lead to a lot of good diversity in deckbuilding and gameplay in Netrunner over its life, and saying that flexibility represents a major design mistake is pretty absurd in my eyes. fomo sacer fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Sep 24, 2016 |
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Sep 24, 2016 00:21
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To be honest it's less that non-3/2s don't get played and more that bad agendas don't get played. Astro, ABT, and Atlas would be strong contenders even as 4/2s (especially if Atlas kept the math), Beale gets played since NBN is ridiculously good at scoring 3 pointers. Vitruvious is marginal but kinda decent and often Biotic'd. Braintrust being awful is a strong reason why Jinteki can't play FA or neveradvance.
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Sep 24, 2016 00:36
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Static Equilibrium posted:I agree. It's hard to justify running 5/3s outside of TFP and GFI, and 4/2s outside of Nisei, Oaktown, and NAPD (Efficiency Committee is good but you're usually scoring it out of hand so it doesn't count), just because there aren't any other good options (and even then Weyland still sometimes ran a single, effectively blank, 5/3 before GFI was printed as a tutor target to close out games). Oh, the flexibility in deckbuilding is definitely nice, but I think sacrificing some flexibility for more refined and consistent mechanics might be beneficial. It’s honestly not even so much the score values that i have a problem with so much as the advancement ones - scaling the agenda points off of the ability text feels like it’d make sense to me - more powerful abilities means less agenda points. But maybe then players would just go “gently caress the abilities i want to win faster” and just go for the highest points. So maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about, I dunno. Maybe the answer is just “FFG needs to design stronger 4/2s, 3/1s, and 5/3s"
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Sep 24, 2016 00:48
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StashAugustine posted:To be honest it's less that non-3/2s don't get played and more that bad agendas don't get played. Astro, ABT, and Atlas would be strong contenders even as 4/2s (especially if Atlas kept the math), Beale gets played since NBN is ridiculously good at scoring 3 pointers. Vitruvious is marginal but kinda decent and often Biotic'd. Braintrust being awful is a strong reason why Jinteki can't play FA or neveradvance. That, and their in-faction fast advance is typically fairly limited. Like Medical Breakthrough sees play because it becomes a FA option. But Jinteki has been limited a lot more to kill with rumour mill. The problem with 5/3s is that their abilities are never good enough to warrant a deckslot. The notable exceptions of GFI and TFP, but those are because they're self-protecting. GFI is basically a 2 pointer wrt the runner, and TFP requires you to win a psi game. But TFP rarely ever gets scored, because Jinteki is trying to score out other agendas, and those agendas are there specifically to reduce agenda density, and maybe if they get a chance they'll try to score it out. 3/1s have the exact opposite problem, they need to have an ability good enough that you want to increase your agenda density. So Chronos Project will see play to screw over Levy and paperclip, whereas self-destruct chips don't hamper your opponent nearly enough, even in cybernetics division. You'll play a 3/1 when it massively makes an upswing in your favour (rezzing a san-san for free with License Aquisition) or puts the opponent on tilt. it has the same cost to score as a 3/2, but only gives half the value towards winning. A lot of 4/2s do see play however, so long as they have worthwhile ability. The biggest thing regarding them is that they have have to compete with 3/2s. The two ways you win are by killing the runner, or scoring out. With 4/2s you need to telegraph that 'this is an agenda' while with a 3/2 you can score them out of hand with San-San/Biotic Labour/Jeeves bullshit. berenzen fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Sep 24, 2016 |
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Sep 24, 2016 00:50
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It'll definitely be a big change when the majority of the 3/2s rotate out next year. Never Advance and Fast Advance will both become much less attractive. NA'ing with 3/1s feels like a bad idea even if a bunch of strong 3/1s get printed.
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Sep 25, 2016 08:19
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