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Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:There's no way to do it without relaunching the game, but the best idea I heard was just make it four agendas to win and every agenda requires three advancements and just make every agenda have an amazing ability when it is fired This is exactly what I’ve thought. Make it a set amount of agendas per deck, possibly even being flexible based on ID, and then base the rest of deckbuilding off of that. I feel like maybe upping the min deck sizes by about 10-15 might be a good call too, to give a bit more slots to add in some of the sacrificed deckbuilding flexibility.
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Oct 5, 2016 21:44
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Small deck sizes are good since you get to be way more consistent. Give me Netrunner's easy draw, plentiful recursion, and small decks over any other LCG.
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Oct 5, 2016 22:14
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Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:There's no way to do it without relaunching the game, but the best idea I heard was just make it four agendas to win and every agenda requires three advancements and just make every agenda have an amazing ability when it is fired I'd also accept reprints of 3/1 agendas all as 4/2's. Or possibly just the same ability in any point flavors you like - maybe give the 5/3's an improved version of the ability.
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Oct 6, 2016 03:09
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The thing I hate about making Corp decks is having to run ICE to not just get rushed but knowing they are more or less dead card slots. I always feel that if I have to play ICE after turn 3 or 4 I have already lost the game, all that seems to matter is getting up those early anti-rush ETR ICE turn 1 and then hope you never draw another ICE for the reset of the game. Only time this changes is if I am facing an ICE killer deck, but even then I am fighting a losing game over ICE at that point. I am starting to really hope that they don't screw up L5R, I am likely going to jump ship to that day one.
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Oct 6, 2016 03:21
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LordNat posted:The thing I hate about making Corp decks is having to run ICE to not just get rushed but knowing they are more or less dead card slots. I always feel that if I have to play ICE after turn 3 or 4 I have already lost the game, all that seems to matter is getting up those early anti-rush ETR ICE turn 1 and then hope you never draw another ICE for the reset of the game. Only time this changes is if I am facing an ICE killer deck, but even then I am fighting a losing game over ICE at that point. ICE has always been a gear check, ever since the beginning. Sentries hurt, barriers stop and code gate are somewhere in the middle. The reason why you want ICE is the same reason why you might want to run multiples of a unique in a runner deck, to help decrease variance. Hell, the whole thing about glacier is making your servers so taxing that it makes it really inefficient to keep running on them, forcing the runner to make efficient value runs over just constantly hammering the game. It's a complaint that I see a lot, but it's always been the case since the start of the game, and it's kinda baked into the central tenants of the game. Granted, Temujin has sort of scrambled all sorts of corp math. The reason why Team Sponsorship/AAL asset decks are all the rage now is because it click compresses the runner, instead of taxing their credits. Even still, glacier still sees play. Hell, Gencon saw a Glacier deck in 2nd place. The thing about most ICE is that it needs to have a good rez/break ratio to commonly seen breakers, those breakers being Paperclip, Gordian/Zu and Mongoose. Playing ICE can be a tempo hit, yes. But at the same time, throwing a piece of ice over archives helps depreciate temujin value. But the idea that ICE is anything but a gearcheck. Anti-rush ICE on turn 1 is nice. But if that's the only thing that you have over your servers, then you're likely to lose unless you're thinking that you can score out by turn 4 or 5 when they have some way to get around your ice.
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Oct 6, 2016 04:13
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IMO the biggest thing that would make Netrunner truly amazing is just requiring an app for digital play as the norm with physical cards a thing required only for invitational events to justify the reprint cost for limited runs. Or still just let people shovel money into the drat things, whatever, just a reset of expectations that digital is the main platform so physical cards are a luxury item, this way balance and gameplay can be the focus. Less time pissed shuffling, too. You still meet up, you just don't have to lug your binders and poo poo. Hell, shelling out $50-100 for a dedicated Netrunner gaming tablet with casting and tournament play integrated is still a drop in the bucket in the scheme of financial barriers to entry when a core set is $40 and physical expansions are $15-30. Best of both worlds: in person card gaming with ability to patch; Hearthstone pulls it off, right? (I don't know, I'm legit asking.)
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Oct 6, 2016 06:22
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Counterpoint: the online/digital implementations of the vast majority of other physical card games are hot garbage and we do not need to emulate them. Jinteki.net is the best digital option we currently have, and that still doesn't properly simulate the timing structure of a run.
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Oct 6, 2016 07:35
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Question regarding paid ability windows: I've heard things and references on netrunnerdb card reviews to things like installing a hades shard and using it before jackson can be rezzed and fired, and i'm wondering how it works exactly. If there's a paidabilitywindow and both sides want to play abilities during that window(i know the active player goes'first'), is there a back and forth between each ability use, or does one player just stack up everything they want and then the other sides stuff goes afterwards?
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Oct 6, 2016 08:17
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The runner and the corp each take turns doing all the stuff that they want to do as an action. Example, the runner has a self-modifying code and a clone chip out. The corp goes install-biotic labour-advance-advance. The runner then uses self-modifying code to bring out clot. The corp advances one more time, then rezzes Cyberdex Virus suite, trashes it to purge viruses and scores. This all happens during the corp's paid ability window, so the runner cannot use clone chip to bring back clot before the corp scores. Because there is no 'stack' in Netrunner, the corp and the runner take turns activating all the paid ability windows that they want. The only exceptions to this rule are cards that have a prevent effect, which can be used in response to the effect happening.
berenzen fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 08:36
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On your turn, all your effects during a window happen first, and you choose the order. If you have already spent a click installing Hades Shard, you can use it before the corp gets to use Jackson.
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Oct 6, 2016 08:37
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Oh, can we get these two images added to the OP? They're probably one of the best resources for figuring out how turns work 
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Oct 6, 2016 08:43
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Dang. I was trying to figure out if I could use a scored firmware upgrades and/or a mumbad construction co along with morph ice to change an ICE's type after the runner had already paid to match it. Looks like that is probably a no.
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Oct 6, 2016 09:29
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TheParadigm posted:Dang. I was trying to figure out if I could use a scored firmware upgrades and/or a mumbad construction co along with morph ice to change an ICE's type after the runner had already paid to match it. No, but you can use it to swap it to a breaker that the runner doesn't have at the time before the runner starts interacting with the ICE.
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Oct 6, 2016 09:48
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What does "Net Mercur" even mean, anyway? Mercur seems to be 1) A ghost town somewhere in America 2) A hotel in Copenhagen 3) A company that makes budgeting software
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Oct 6, 2016 11:46
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Radio Mercur
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Oct 6, 2016 11:54
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Ah cool, thanks.
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Oct 6, 2016 12:45
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LordNat posted:The thing I hate about making Corp decks is having to run ICE to not just get rushed but knowing they are more or less dead card slots. I always feel that if I have to play ICE after turn 3 or 4 I have already lost the game, all that seems to matter is getting up those early anti-rush ETR ICE turn 1 and then hope you never draw another ICE for the reset of the game. Only time this changes is if I am facing an ICE killer deck, but even then I am fighting a losing game over ICE at that point. I definitely agree ice is weird, and have been wondering how a theoretical reboot of netrunner could fix the problems it has. Looking at mtg for a comparison, the closest thing is getting an early game creature during the late game - but then one or two mana isn't a huge investment and having an extra creature to block with isn't the end of the world. So even if you get an early game thing during the mid/late game, you still get SOME use out of it. Getting an early game ice in the late game is practically a dead draw, since playing it on a server can actively hurt you - either due to server install costs, or rez costs, or just wasting a precious click. Probably dumb suggestion for a completely overhauled netrunner: each Corp deck has a sideboard of ice, around 10? Maybe have the number depend on the ID. Anyways, you can search that sideboard to install ice the same way you can normally install ice, just all your ice doesn't take up hand or deck space. Then you'd have much more fine control over positional ice and tempo ice, never worry about getting flooded or starved, and have a bunch more deck slots without increasing variance.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:26
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CodfishCartographer posted:I definitely agree ice is weird, and have been wondering how a theoretical reboot of netrunner could fix the problems it has. Looking at mtg for a comparison, the closest thing is getting an early game creature during the late game - but then one or two mana isn't a huge investment and having an extra creature to block with isn't the end of the world. So even if you get an early game thing during the mid/late game, you still get SOME use out of it. Getting an early game ice in the late game is practically a dead draw, since playing it on a server can actively hurt you - either due to server install costs, or rez costs, or just wasting a precious click. Might be interesting if you still had to have an ICE card in your deck (like Dominion has "Gold" cards) so you could just fetch from the board, but still need to draw (and design your deck around) the same number of slots, but not have positional/non-gearcheck problems. Would probably make Account Siphon *literally* unplayable, but I don't see that as a downside...
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Oct 6, 2016 18:48
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LordNat posted:The thing I hate about making Corp decks is having to run ICE to not just get rushed but knowing they are more or less dead card slots. I always feel that if I have to play ICE after turn 3 or 4 I have already lost the game, all that seems to matter is getting up those early anti-rush ETR ICE turn 1 and then hope you never draw another ICE for the reset of the game. Only time this changes is if I am facing an ICE killer deck, but even then I am fighting a losing game over ICE at that point. Isn't the conceit of playing glacier that you're avoiding this problem? Your ice is part of your scoring strategy, so the window of time when any given piece of ice is a good draw naturally widens.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:07
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^^^Honestly, poorly-timed ice can be a pain / dead draw for glacier decks as well. Glacier decks have tons of ice installed, so that means if you draw a piece of ice and want to install + rez it, it’ll be 2~4 credits + click to install, then probably anywhere from 4-8 credits to rez (since anything cheaper probably wouldn’t slow / tax the runner much anyways. Anywhere from 6-12 credits + a click is a massive tempo hit for a corp, regardless of what stage of the game it’s in.Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:Might be interesting if you still had to have an ICE card in your deck (like Dominion has "Gold" cards) so you could just fetch from the board, but still need to draw (and design your deck around) the same number of slots, but not have positional/non-gearcheck problems. Would probably make Account Siphon *literally* unplayable, but I don't see that as a downside... I mean, you’d still have to pay credits to rez and install the ice and such, it just wouldn’t be up to random draw whether or not you receive the ice you need. It would obviously make corps much stronger in the early game since they’ll ALWAYS have the right gearcheck, but I feel like that could be designed around easily enough - increase gearcheck rez costs, give some more breaker tutor options, more available Ai breakers, etc. If the runner could keep the corp broke then it wouldn’t matter much if they can install whatever ice they want at will anyways, unless I guess the corp only packed super cheap ice, but then they’d be screwed in the lategame anyways. The specific amount of ice could lead to some interesting things where you know exactly how much you can defend, and have to choose how thinly you’re willing to spread your ice. CodfishCartographer fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 19:10
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Yeah maybe you can claim that is the case now but before they printed a shitload of stupid assets/protection and nerfed Caprice/Ash so lots of ice remains good for most of the game.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:10
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Having ICE in the deck itself provides secondary and tertiary functions of questionable value: it dilutes your hand and deck to make running HQ and R&D hit "dead" cards with which the runner can't interact and so forces them to choose other options instead of hitting the jackpot every time, and opens up opportunities for bluffing with limited knowledge on either side of the equation, which makes the game more interactive. I think there's some merit in always being able to threaten that one piece of ICE the runner saw in your hand or at the top of R&D since it forces the runner to play differently. Either they're going to take time to build a rig to counter that ICE that might not even be laid out in front of a server, or they may get too cautious around whatever server in which you just installed ICE and let you sneak something through. This is somewhat unrelated but sort of ties into the idea of "dead" cards: I think the game's greatest strength is also its greatest weakness: hidden information. It provides a huge amount of variance in each game that can be controlled and mitigated to a certain extent, but when you consider that accessing HQ is always a random chance that is almost impossible to mitigate (there might be two agendas in a five-card hand, but a full turn of Legworks can still get you nothing with bad luck), that hidden information becomes more of a hindrance to gameplay than an enhancement.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:12
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I just realized that Black Orchestra is going to take 9 credits to break DNA Tracker. Maybe I'll just stick with importing Zu.13...
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Oct 6, 2016 19:56
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ICE having more On Rez effects would be useful. Similar to MtG Enter the Battlefield effects. Or unbreakable subs that have a minor effect. Or ICE that improves the server itself, either boosting other ICE or acting as pseudo upgrades for cards in the server.
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Oct 6, 2016 20:14
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There's already a fair number of those effects, Tollbooth has been a staple for forever. Ice has never been about permanently keeping the runner out, just slowing them down; and IMO that's not a bad way to design them.
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Oct 6, 2016 20:27
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Ehh, despite all the various niggles I actually like the game a lot, probably because I've given up on trying to play it competitively (because I don't have the time, not because I'm disillusioned with the game or w/e). And Flashpoint is a good cycle so far. My main gripe is they like their silver bullets far too much. From a game-health point of view mega-powerful and mega-specific cards like Rumour Mill are a terrible idea and I wish they'd print fewer of them.
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Oct 6, 2016 20:46
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Yeah my biggest complaint with the game right now isn't any fundamental issues but just that they've been pushing the power level of cards way too far and relying on overreaching hosers.
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Oct 6, 2016 20:49
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PJOmega posted:ICE having more On Rez effects would be useful. Similar to MtG Enter the Battlefield effects. Or unbreakable subs that have a minor effect. Or ICE that improves the server itself, either boosting other ICE or acting as pseudo upgrades for cards in the server. I'd love something like "Subroutines that do not End the Run can not be broken if the ICE was rezzed during this run." or even an upgrade with something like "The first subroutine on ICE protecting this server that does not read ->End the Run can not be broken by programs".
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Oct 6, 2016 21:30
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LordNat posted:I'd love something like "Subroutines that do not End the Run can not be broken if the ICE was rezzed during this run." or even an upgrade with something like "The first subroutine on ICE protecting this server that does not read ->End the Run can not be broken by programs". If you do that, then you can't have sentries, because the whole idea around sentries is that they're pricy to break, and incredibly devestating. If you make it impossible to break 'trash program' subroutines, then congrats you have made a server impenetrable. I would love to always make Ichi fire, or architect , or Brainstorm, or komainu, or basically any sentry in the game.
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Oct 6, 2016 21:58
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berenzen posted:If you do that, then you can't have sentries, because the whole idea around sentries is that they're pricy to break, and incredibly devestating. If you make it impossible to break 'trash program' subroutines, then congrats you have made a server impenetrable. I would love to always make Ichi fire, or architect , or Brainstorm, or komainu, or basically any sentry in the game. I like to think the spirit of the post meant more like the Code Gate subs that don't end the run - the ones that do crazy weird fun poo poo.
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Oct 6, 2016 22:18
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How about we just get rid of YAWG POINT OH and all these problems go away
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Oct 6, 2016 22:32
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FFG should order a recall of all printed versions of Yog.0, then set them on fire in a streamed event. Then print a decoder that doesn't blank out a bunch of code gates for no cost to the runner.
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Oct 6, 2016 22:41
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I kind of get the feeling that Yog.0 was strength 2 during playtesting, and would have been perfectly acceptable like that. Even within the first few core/sets, it just means it gets you through enigmas and quandaries just fine, and to really make use of it - hey, you need support cards, just like everythign else.
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Oct 7, 2016 00:36
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Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:How about we just get rid of YAWG POINT OH and all these problems go away -> bad stuff -> end the run How's your Yog now, runner-boy?  Though now I've just printed another silver bullet :/
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Oct 7, 2016 00:42
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I dunno, it also targets David and possibly ABR.
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Oct 7, 2016 00:56
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Speaking of Adam, as a huge fan of his I’m…hesitant in the upcoming Directive. His other three directives are so integral to his playstyle that it’s hard to function without them. You can’t really replace Safety First with it since it’s free draw for the entire game (at the end of turn even!), and Always Be Running just lets you be ridiculously aggressive all the time. I feel like the only option is giving up Neutralize All Threats, but then you’d be giving up your HQ pressure in favor of R&D pressure. I mean I guess you could build in some draw power, then get rid of Safety First to be able to pressure both R&D and HQ right off the bat, but then you’d need to include some kind of draw engine. You’d probably need to sacrifice R&D multi-access to do so, which means it’ll be almost impossible to fully lock down a corp. I guess just plan to win before that happens? e: wait, no, Find The Truth only reveals R&D after a successful run. This means you couldn’t just immediately pressure R&D, you’d need to make a run on another server first to even tell if it’d be worth it - which might use up your ABR for the turn. Bluh, not really feeling it unless you’re willing to pay the influence for Security Testing or Patron. CodfishCartographer fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Oct 7, 2016 |
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Oct 7, 2016 01:24
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I think it all depends on the match-up. So vs. CTM or IG you would probably want to replace NAT, that way you can pick and choose the cards you want to kill versus hitting a psychic field with a HI up.
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Oct 7, 2016 01:28
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True. This actually brings up a question of rules - since the directives don’t count towards your deck size, are they a “part” of your deck? If, in the middle of a tournament, I want to change the directives I’m using, is that allowed?
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Oct 7, 2016 01:36
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CodfishCartographer posted:True. This actually brings up a question of rules - since the directives don’t count towards your deck size, are they a “part” of your deck? If, in the middle of a tournament, I want to change the directives I’m using, is that allowed? What "You start the game with 3 different directive cards installed (these cards are not considered part of your deck)." means to me is that before the first turn of the game starts to get to install any three Directives out of the legal card pool. So I'd say it is ok to swap around your set up based on the match up. Meaning that they are going to need to be really careful to not make Adam not some kind of insanely flexible powerhouse.
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Oct 7, 2016 01:44
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Yeah that's how it sounds to me, which is a lot more attractive now that I'm thinking about it a bit more. The flexibility is definitely novel, and could be really useful. On the other hand, Jinteki Biotech never caught on, so WHO KNOWS.
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Oct 7, 2016 01:49
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