Constitutional Convention PbP (MOD APPROVED)

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Shrecknet: Jan 2, 2005

Loel posted:

Amendments

it is the duty of the chair to remind the Texas delegation that there is a necessary and proper time for amendments, and that as the chairman, it is my duty to lead an orderly convention

# ? Sep 12, 2016 05:50

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# ? May 2, 2024 14:35

Loel: Jun 4, 2012; "For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.

Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:

it is the duty of the chair to remind the Texas delegation that there is a necessary and proper time for amendments, and that as the chairman, it is my duty to lead an orderly convention

Ok, Im clearly not understanding the process.

We're in Article 1, with several changes people want to make. What format do you want it in?

# ? Sep 12, 2016 05:52

Shrecknet: Jan 2, 2005

Loel posted:

Ok, Im clearly not understanding the process.

We're in Article 1, with several changes people want to make. What format do you want it in?

For the next week (or until such time as it is ratified and adopted) only Article ı, and changes germane to that section, are under review. I promise we'll get to the good juicy "fix the country" bits, but proposing new amendments is a little bit off. Also, amendments are technically unnecessary if we amend the original text (for instance, the 16th ceased to be, as it now simply in Article 1, section 1)

# ? Sep 12, 2016 06:12

Quorum: Sep 24, 2014; REMIND ME AGAIN HOW THE LITTLE HORSE-SHAPED ONES MOVE?

Basically, what we are discussing this week is just amendments to do with legislative procedure and the functions and authority of Congress. Arguably, this includes districting reform, but since we (presumably?) want that to impact more than just congressional elections, it might be a better idea to put that in an amendment, since it's sort of its own idea at that point.

# ? Sep 12, 2016 06:24

DivineCoffeeBinge: Mar 3, 2011; Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company

A few thoughts from Libertopia with regards to the proposed changes to Article One:

* Rather than changing the term of a House member to four years, we would suggest a switch to every three years. Doing so would still achieve the goals of increasing a Congressman's term - thus giving them a chance to actually govern without constantly having to fundraise for their next election right from the get-go - and keep Congress more fluid so as to encourage it to remain a body more directly representative of the ever-shifting political mood of the country, but it would also allow for a regular rotation of so-called "off-year" elections. These off-year elections often have important state and local races taking place, and yet all too often those smaller races go completely ignored by the voting public because there is no national focus to attract them to the polls. If a third of the House was up for re-election every year, much in the way that a third of the Senate is up for re-election every two years, the follow-on effect in getting more voters into the polling place should allow for a greater degree of voter engagement with their local politics as well.

* While we approve of using the least-populous state as a baseline for apportionment of Congressional representation, some specifics might not be such a bad idea. If a state has only 150% of the population of the least-populous state, do they get one representative, or two? Or one and a half, one supposes? Shall the Census remain the baseline methodology of determining a state's population? Have we even discussed whether we are going to keep the Census? Shall U.S. territories that do not achieve statehood have voting representation? What about non-voting representation? We suggest that any non-state populations - and we should include this language even if we intend to make all of our present territories into states, as there should be a provision in place in case we somehow acquire more territories in the future - should have a voting representative in the House but none in the Senate; this feels like a decent compromise.

* Does the honorable Mister Biden even wish to be permanent President of the Senate? The poor guy just lost his son and is presently devoting much of his attention to the present Administration's anti-cancer initiatives. We all love Diamond Joe, but the man's earned a break.

# ? Sep 12, 2016 06:33

Loel: Jun 4, 2012; "For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.

Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:

For the next week (or until such time as it is ratified and adopted) only Article ı, and changes germane to that section, are under review. I promise we'll get to the good juicy "fix the country" bits, but proposing new amendments is a little bit off. Also, amendments are technically unnecessary if we amend the original text (for instance, the 16th ceased to be, as it now simply in Article 1, section 1)

Okay, I'm still not clear on this.

The subjects Im bringing up are related to the legislature - voting protection, voting process, what constitute a state, and so forth. (Patent law too, as that's in Article 1 for some reason). The process by which that changes is called an amendment (eg, the 16th amendment you mentioned in your post). I have collecting votes to change sections of Article 1, via amendment.

Where is the miscommunication happening?

# ? Sep 12, 2016 06:50

cat_herder: Mar 17, 2010; BE GAY
DO CRIME

DivineCoffeeBinge posted:

A few thoughts from Libertopia with regards to the proposed changes to Article One:

I say let's keep the Census, because it gives us good demographic information for governance purposes, and also gives us scientific and sociological data.

but I'm not sure if this is in Article 1. A census is mentioned, but it doesn't give specific info as to how often to do it, and how.

# ? Sep 12, 2016 06:58

RandomPauI: Nov 24, 2006; Grimey Drawer

(OOC: Would it be regionally appropriate for the Appelacian delegation to call for a re-institution of militias to those organized by municipalities?)

# ? Sep 12, 2016 07:00

Loel: Jun 4, 2012; "For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.

RandomPauI posted:

(OOC: Would it be regionally appropriate for the Appelacian delegation to call for a re-institution of militias to those organized by municipalities?)

Texas supports this. Everyone with a gun joins the state militia, and there can be state sponsored gun ranges. And ammo!

We wouldnt want our citizens to not know how to use their guns.

# ? Sep 12, 2016 07:09

RandomPauI: Nov 24, 2006; Grimey Drawer

Appalachia, Senator Tingle

Yes, I'm concerned about Article 1, Section 3, Subsection 4. Specifically the addition of "Until such time as his death, Joseph Robinette "Joe" Biden Jr. shall serve as President of the Senate." At best this duplicates the intent of the existing language. At worst this effectively crowns Biden as President of the Senate for the remainder of his life. We've already had the legislature crown Obama, we don't need the states to crown Biden too.

I'm also concerned about the removal of Article 1, Section 8, Subsections 15 and 16. The laws providing for the creation of the national guard were not amendments proper, as such they were never repealed. And there is no need for them to be repealed. In fact, there is a strong desire in the Union for a return to locally organized Militias, particularly in the face of terrorism, unjust government aggression, and other criminal actors. If we must amend these subsections constitutionally then it should strengthen the power and autonomy of the states to empower and recognize citizen-lead militias!

# ? Sep 12, 2016 07:35

Loel: Jun 4, 2012; "For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.

Kevin Young, Chief of Staff

Section 2.

Members of the House shall be chosen via mathematically compact, equally population districts, and the voting method chosen shall allow for multiple candidates to be ranked, and will provide a Condorcet winner if such exists. The rights of adults to vote shall not be infringed for any reason, and voter ID cards to be distributed to all voters.

(6/6 Loel, RandomPaul, Cat_herder, Elmnt80, seifer/solkanar, rafza)
(3/6 Loel, RandomPaul, Cat_herder)
(2/6 QuoProQuid, Loel)

Section 3.

The method chosen for Senate races shall allow for multiple candidates to be ranked, and will provide a Condorcet winner if such exists. The rights of adults to vote shall not be infringed for any reason, and voter ID cards to be distributed to all voters.

(6/6 Loel, RandomPaul, Cat_herder, Elmnt80, seifer/solkanar, rafza)
(3/6 Loel, RandomPaul, Cat_herder)
(2/6 QuoProQuid, Loel)

Section 4.

Campaigns shall be done three months before election, and voting shall be done for two months prior to election.

(4/6 Loel, RandomPaul, Cat_herder, Elmnt80)

FEC vs Citizens United is overturned.

(6/6 Loel, RandomPaul, Cat_herder, Elmnt80, seifer/solkanar, rafza)

Section 5.

Do we want to something about filibusters or the nuclear option? (0/6)

Section 8.

To pass patent and copyright into the public domain after 14 years.

(2/6 cat_herder, loel)

To maintain and update infrastructure (passed)

To mandate all states match or better environmental standards as per CA AB32 (0/6)

To provide healthcare (0/6)

Loel fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Sep 12, 2016

# ? Sep 12, 2016 10:14

Loel: Jun 4, 2012; "For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.

RandomPauI posted:

Appalachia, Senator Tingle

Yes, I'm concerned about Article 1, Section 3, Subsection 4. Specifically the addition of "Until such time as his death, Joseph Robinette "Joe" Biden Jr. shall serve as President of the Senate." At best this duplicates the intent of the existing language. At worst this effectively crowns Biden as President of the Senate for the remainder of his life. We've already had the legislature crown Obama, we don't need the states to crown Biden too.

I'm also concerned about the removal of Article 1, Section 8, Subsections 15 and 16. The laws providing for the creation of the national guard were not amendments proper, as such they were never repealed. And there is no need for them to be repealed. In fact, there is a strong desire in the Union for a return to locally organized Militias, particularly in the face of terrorism, unjust government aggression, and other criminal actors. If we must amend these subsections constitutionally then it should strengthen the power and autonomy of the states to empower and recognize citizen-lead militias!

How about something like

'The state shall organize all gun-owners into a state militia, and provide gun-ranges and ammo for their training.' ?

# ? Sep 12, 2016 10:32

RandomPauI: Nov 24, 2006; Grimey Drawer

Loel posted:

How about something like

'The state shall organize all gun-owners into a state militia, and provide gun-ranges and ammo for their training.' ?

Appalachia, Sen Tingle

I'm certain that the members of these state militias would greatly appreciate the provisions but membership in a militia has always been and must always be voluntary! Mandatory conscription in exchange for the freedom to exercise your 2nd amendment rights, that will inevitably lead to intrusive Federal registrations and regulations on all gun-owners in the name of having a "uniform policy" on all gun ownership. No, we cannot travel down such a slippery slope.

# ? Sep 12, 2016 10:45

Olothreutes: Mar 31, 2007

Loel posted:

Members of the House shall be chosen via mathematically compact, equally population districts, and the voting shall be done via instant run-off. The rights of adults to vote shall not be infringed for any reason, and voter ID cards to be distributed to all voters.

Voting for Senate candidates shall be done via instant run-off. The rights of adults to vote shall not be infringed for any reason, and voter ID cards to be distributed to all voters.

IRV is garbage. Schulze Sequential Dropping is far superior.

# ? Sep 12, 2016 11:01

Loel: Jun 4, 2012; "For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.

Olothreutes posted:

IRV is garbage. Schulze Sequential Dropping is far superior.

I agree, but figured IRV was the overarching category with Schulze being the subset that goes through legislation. If we find a hypothetical better IRV method then Schulze, I didn't want to be constitutionally bound.

# ? Sep 12, 2016 11:11

Olothreutes: Mar 31, 2007

Loel posted:

I agree, but figured IRV was the overarching category with Schulze being the subset that goes through legislation. If we find a hypothetical better IRV method then Schulze, I didn't want to be constitutionally bound.

Just mandate that the method chosen shall allow for multiple candidates to be ranked, and will provide a condorcet winner if such exists.

# ? Sep 12, 2016 12:21

Loel: Jun 4, 2012; "For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.

That works. Edited.

# ? Sep 12, 2016 12:25

boy are my arms tired: May 10, 2012; Ham Wrangler

Please forgive the delegate from Kalakaua for his lack of conversation, he's been deathly ill with a head cold and a newborn baby that wakes him up every three hours.

I am playing catchup with the thread and will post my thoughts in due course today.

# ? Sep 12, 2016 15:56

seiferguy: Jun 9, 2005; FLAWED
INTUITION; Toilet Rascal

Just a heads up, I'm out with little to no Internet so I hope there's a delegate to help on my behalf!

# ? Sep 12, 2016 21:21

Shrecknet: Jan 2, 2005

seiferguy posted:

Just a heads up, I'm out with little to no Internet so I hope there's a delegate to help on my behalf!

There is, it is SolKanar512, the Swamp King

# ? Sep 12, 2016 21:22

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

I still think it's hilarious that I'm representing one of the most populous areas in the US and literally no one is harassing me.

I'm literally just a dude who lives in Harlem who happened to check out this thread early from when it was prepped in TG and sign up on a whim.

There's a political metaphor in there, I think.

(PS I'll be the weird one and vote for keeping the weird Old Timey English. I think it's cute and when it's a problem should just get a foot-note. Yeah. I'm That Guy. )

# ? Sep 13, 2016 03:36

Loel: Jun 4, 2012; "For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.

Xiahou Dun posted:

I still think it's hilarious that I'm representing one of the most populous areas in the US and literally no one is harassing me.

I PM you twice a day :colbert:

# ? Sep 13, 2016 05:24

Solkanar512: Dec 28, 2006; by the sex ghost

Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:

There is, it is SolKanar512, the Swamp King

OOC: I'm here, just catching up. I'll have a post/vote later today. I have, however, picked out my avatar.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 14:53

RandomPauI: Nov 24, 2006; Grimey Drawer

OOC: Just to be clear, we're voting on keeping Article 1 as is OR adding one vaguely worded part and removing two other parts of it.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 21:56

Shrecknet: Jan 2, 2005

RandomPauI posted:

OOC: Just to be clear, we're voting on keeping Article 1 as is OR adding one vaguely worded part and removing two other parts of it.

Yes, essentially. Feel free to propose any other changes to the document as presented, including ripping out whole portions. If you can find 5 delegates to agree, you can do basically anything to article I right now. If you like the way it looks, pop over to the google doc and just bubble in a yes vote. If we get six "as presented" yes's, we can actually move on to Article II, which I know everyone is excited for, because that's the "un-gently caress the EC" article.

The real fancy stuff is in Article I, section 8 - which includes the copyright and patent length, currently at "whatever congress wants" but certainly amendable to any duration by adding that length to the line-item. Debateably, you could also add UHC to this, but I think that stands out better as its own amendment.

Shrecknet fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Sep 13, 2016

# ? Sep 13, 2016 21:59

CellBlock: Oct 6, 2005; It just don't stop.

As a random bystander (who happens to be a Tidewater constituent), I'm curious if anyone has any tentative changes to the Commerce Clause.

# ? Sep 14, 2016 19:14

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

I let you guys update the spelling so far, but drat it, we are keeping the Olde Tymey random Punctuation over My dead Body.

# ? Sep 14, 2016 19:54

RandomPauI: Nov 24, 2006; Grimey Drawer

Appalachia. Reporter Charles Cromwell's cellphone Skype session with his editor

All you have are rumors and press releases. <
Everyone has those. Do you have anything meaningful? <
> Chuck's not holding out on us
> But nothing going on in public or private
> The dels not involved in the putsch and some dels involved just not participating
> Not attending convention sessions, discussions, meetings, not even fundraising
> Internet rumors gaining steam silent dels organizing parallel convention &/or vacationing
> Former impossible, latter more possible for one but political suicide and why 2/3s, so something else?
> Rt will prob pick up tom night, then fox or msnbc, then CNN & papers
> Can't figure out their endgame

# ? Sep 15, 2016 06:55

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

You have packed this convention hall as if you were FDR trying to destroy our courts; you have diminished the voice of true delegates in order to promote an agenda of rule by law rather than rule of law.

The midwest strongly objects to the constitutionality of these proceedings!

# ? Sep 16, 2016 15:43

Shrecknet: Jan 2, 2005

My Imaginary GF posted:

You have packed this convention hall as if you were FDR trying to destroy our courts; you have diminished the voice of true delegates in order to promote an agenda of rule by law rather than rule of law.

The midwest strongly objects to the constitutionality of these proceedings!

The delegation from the Midwest is welcome to call for another constitutional convention in 230 years, after this document is implemented and the kinks ironed out over a few centuries. If your plan is pure abstention, you'll need to work with other dissident delegates, since most members (yourself included) joined this venture because you believed in change and updating this staid document. I look forward to your contributions beyond objecting vociferously to allowing our most marginalized citizens in outlying regions like Hawaii, American Samoa and Puerto Rico finally having a voice in our government.

# ? Sep 17, 2016 22:32

RandomPauI: Nov 24, 2006; Grimey Drawer

OOC: We never had a discussion on the removal of "unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken". Or a discussion for that matter.

# ? Sep 17, 2016 22:45

Shrecknet: Jan 2, 2005

RandomPauI posted:

OOC: We never had a discussion on the removal of "unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken". Or a discussion for that matter.

Why do you want it kept? Or stripped? This is your time to discuss!

# ? Sep 17, 2016 22:47

RandomPauI: Nov 24, 2006; Grimey Drawer

Appalacia, Sen Tingle

I have heard no compelling arguments for the removal of the constitutional requirements for the maintenance of a militia, or for any changes to the ways that taxes are collected. Will anyone here go on record as to why those sections had to be removed?

# ? Sep 17, 2016 22:53

RagnarokAngel: Oct 5, 2006; Black Magic Extraordinaire

RandomPauI posted:

Appalacia, Sen Tingle

I have heard no compelling arguments for the removal of the constitutional requirements for the maintenance of a militia, or for any changes to the ways that taxes are collected. Will anyone here go on record as to why those sections had to be removed?

Delegate Sarah O'Malley, New England
The reality is a militia in this day and age is an archaic construction. At the time of our founding fathers your average musket wielder could stand up to a government, given enough people and the right tactics. Today? In the event of a ground invasion on US territory, your average militia would do more harm than good. Our trained, federal army would do far better good in such a situation.

# ? Sep 18, 2016 00:21

RandomPauI: Nov 24, 2006; Grimey Drawer

Appalachia, Chief of Staff, Middle, Frank
Okay, so, when it came to the taxes and the militias we were going to hit talking points to appeal to your constituents but I think we're actually going to have to propose policy changes here. This fell into your lap. Give the right speeches, squeeze the right hands, you've got a path to the White House! But now we have to be careful, now we have to plan things for an exploritory committee next year.

Appalachia, Wife, Elizabeth
Except for needing to expand our core demographic. We can't get to 270 votes if we only have the support of all the poor whites, and half of the middle class whites.

*Chief of Staff shoots her a glare, she glares back at him.*

Appalachia Delegate, Senator Charles Tingle
You're throwing out the game plan? We had a plan for wheeling and dealing, graceful bow out for a few years, then return to political life. Now you're telling me we've got to prep for a White House run in the year?

*chief of staff nods*

Charles
I don't agree about needing to rush to an exploratory committee. You're practically asking me what hill to die on right now!

Frank
You won't be dying on any hills. You'll just have to be more vocal and more careful with your words is all.

Okay, my gut tells me to go for the militia thing, spin it as the feds wanting to shift their obligation onto the state, force the states to pay for the upkeep and training and follow the national standards while whatever laws prevent them and the local counties from running things like they want.

Elizabeth
And just make noise on the floor and in press releases about needing to fix our broken tax system? If there were someone else talking up the issue that'd be fine but that's not being addressed either. If you're being serious and you want to start up an exploratory committee soon you'll have to grab this and run. You'll have to make a decision and an effort post!

*Tingle looks at Liz confused, then shrugs it off*

(OOC: Heads up. I'll yield on the tax thing when I figure out how Charles spins it but won't be yielding on stripping the clauses out of Article 1 Section 8. Is there a mechanism to move for the striking of a revision?)

# ? Sep 18, 2016 02:40

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

Xiahou Dun posted:

(PS I'll be the weird one and vote for keeping the weird Old Timey English. I think it's cute and when it's a problem should just get a foot-note. Yeah. I'm That Guy. )

Sorry, I guess I was being super unclear : This is NYC's tacit approval of the current version of Article I.

# ? Sep 19, 2016 23:10

Lord Zedd-Repulsa: Jul 21, 2007; Devour a good book.

I'm nothing but an NCR constituent, but I got an email today explaining things about the electoral college if you all want to read it and its sources then make your minds up on keeping it or not. It's here and since it's long, I'll share the most interesting pieces, skipping the parts I assume you all know better than me. The site has references, don't worry!

quote:

So, why does the United States use the somewhat convoluted Electoral College when a popular vote would be drastically simpler and more democratic? In short, it was a necessary compromise from a time when the �united states� were not bound nearly as cohesively as today, nor the general public very well educated on the whole or well informed about the various candidates.

For the more detailed answer, the Electoral College dates back to 1787�s Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, where they were given the gargantuan task of figuring out a solution to the mostly ineffective Articles of Confederation. Among the many issues that needed resolving was how the president of United States was to be elected.

In order to understand the delegates� thought process, context is needed. The young country was only 13 states and residents were generally extremely provincial, meaning they still trusted their own state more than the federal government. Further, in many cases people identified more as a citizen of their state, rather than a citizen of the United States first.

From this, the founders were concerned that citizens of each state would put their own best interest before the nation�s. On top of this, because each state�s citizens would likely know their own candidates much better than candidates from other states (most of whom they probably wouldn�t even have ever heard of), they were doubly likely to vote for their own candidates. The ultimate result of this was feared to be that the winner of each state would likely be a citizen of that state, who would in turn have little chance of winning, or even garnering any support at all, in other states.

This brings us to the first option put on the table- election via popular vote. While more democratic, as mentioned, delegates were very concerned that each state would potentially elect their own candidate, making it difficult to ever get a candidate with wide support throughout the nation. Instead, they feared they�d be left with a field of many �favorite sons.�

Among these favorite sons, the bigger states � like Virginia � would dominate, resulting in little chance of someone from a smaller state ever becoming president, and making it so Virginia�s interests would be disproportionately represented in the nation�s highest office. For reference, at the time, Virginia had 424,000 men eligible to vote, which was more than Georgia, Delaware, South Carolina, Rhode Island and New Hampshire combined.

The other major option proposed was a simple Congressional appointment. Despite being inherently non-democratic, there was a thought that the president should be less powerful than Congress and, therefore, needed to be dependent on them. Also, the thinking went, the general public was largely extremely poorly educated and poorly politically informed. Congressional members, on the other hand, were not only already elected to represent their respective citizens in such matters, but were also intimately familiar with prospective presidential candidates, their character, work ethic, political leanings, etc. and were generally quite well educated relative to most people. Thus, in a nutshell, members of Congress were simply the most qualified to pick the most qualified president.

Ultimately this proposal lost because it threatened the checks and balances of the federal government. As then delegate and future President James Madison noted, "[T]he election of the Chief Magistrate would agitate & divide the legislature so much that the public interest would materially suffer by it. Public bodies are always apt to be thrown into contentions, but into more violent ones by such occasions than by any others. [T]he candidate would intrigue with the Legislature, would derive his appointment from the predominant faction, and be apt to render his administration subservient to its views." Essentially- if the president was elected by Congress, while in theory Congress at the time may well have been in a much better position to pick the best president, those who sought the office would be constantly campaigning and trying to impress those members, perhaps even giving favors upon election in exchange for votes. Beyond this, no president interested in getting re-elected could ever oppose Congress for fear they wouldn�t re-elect him or her later. Needless to say, this system was ripe for extreme corruption. So while in theory Congress was best suited to pick the potential best president, in practice they�d likely not have done so, or if they did, lorded too much power over that individual.

Thus, the Committee of Eleven on Postponed Matters devised and proposed the Electoral College, a system the delegates ultimately approved. Alexander Hamilton noted of the Electoral College, ��if the manner of it be not perfect, it is at least excellent.�

As to what �the manner of it� actually was intended to be- the idea here was essentially something of a cross between a popular vote and congressional selection- it was democratic in the sense that the popular vote could potentially determine the state�s allegiance (in the beginning state legislatures didn�t all do it this way), but it also limited the larger states� influence slightly by awarding extra votes to smaller states via an elector for each of their senatorial representatives.

As for why it was also partially a compromise for those who advocated for a congressional selection, in a time before political parties in the United States, there is evidence that the founders very much assumed the electors, who explicitly could not �hold an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States� (to avoid at least some of the aforementioned corruption potential), would not be bound by the popular vote in their state or party affiliation or any such similar device.

In fact, in the earliest elections, over half the states� legislatures selected their presidential electors with no regard for public vote, a right state legislatures still technically retain, but is a practice that died swiftly around the turn of the 19th century.

Beyond potentially disregarding popular vote in selecting which group of electors gets to vote for president, if a given state legislature really wanted to, they could even decide to pick a group of electors via something completely arbitrary like putting a bunch of mice in a maze, one representing each person who ran for president, with the winning mouse determining which group of electors is chosen.

Since the issues this mentions aren't as relevant in this day and age, it seems like a good reason to get rid of the Electoral College altogether, no matter what voting system is decided on in the end. Isn't the one some people are proposing the one that leads to countries like Australia having massively multi-page ballots, though? Most of us won't have time to do that on Election Day itself....

Lord Zedd-Repulsa fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Sep 20, 2016

# ? Sep 20, 2016 01:14

cat_herder: Mar 17, 2010; BE GAY
DO CRIME

Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:

Article I

Section 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Section 2.

The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every ~~second~~fourth Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years.~~, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.~~ The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the next Meeting of the Congress of the United States after the ratification of this document, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. Each state shall have at least 1 representative, and the least-populous state shall be the baseline by which the number of representatives be apportioned.The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuoose three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.

When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.

The House of Representatives shall chuoose their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

Section 3.

The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures._{(this is the 17th amendment)}

Immediately after they shall be assembled in Consequence of the next Election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three Classes. The Seats of the Senators of the first Class shall be vacated at the Expiration of the second Year, of the second Class at the Expiration of the fourth Year, and of the third Class at the Expiration of the sixth Year, so that one third may be chosen every second Year; and when vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.

No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided. ~~Until such time as his death, Joseph Robinette "Joe" Biden Jr. shall serve as President of the Senate.~~

The Senate shall chuoose their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the Absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States.

The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

Section 4.

The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chuoosing Senators.

The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.

Section. 5.

Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.

Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.

Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.

Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.

Section. 6.

The Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.

No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.

No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time; and no Person holding any Office under the United States, shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office.

Section. 7.

All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If they approve they shall sign it, but if not they shall return it, with their Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to them, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if they had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.

Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of Adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the Same shall take Effect, shall be approved by them, or being disapproved by them, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the Rules and Limitations prescribed in the Case of a Bill.

Section. 8.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration._{(this is the 16th amendment)}

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, ~~and of foreign Coin~~, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;�And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Section. 9.

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person._{(the 13th amendment ended slavery, as such, this archaic and shameful clause shall be removed)}

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid. ~~unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.~~

No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

Section. 10.

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing ~~but gold and silver Coin~~ a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Control of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

Minor edits.

# ? Sep 20, 2016 07:03

RandomPauI: Nov 24, 2006; Grimey Drawer

RUSSIA TIMES BREAKING NEWS LIVESTREAM

Russia Times Coverage of the American Republic on Deaths Door: Livestream From the Convention Floor as it Happens: posted:

1 min ago:
09:53 am

1 min ago:
09:53

For those of you just joining us, here's a concise summary of what's going on.

Thirty minutes ago a group of ISIS-sympathizers opened fire on a school in Arlington, Virginia. And ten minutes ago a battle for the Capital of the United States began. A group of armed men assaulted the Constitutional Convention using high-powered military rifles, armored vehicles, and IEDs. The Michigan Marine Corps National Guard Unit immediately claimed responsibility. There are also reports of military-grade bomb-laden drones flying into the congressional building where Obama was scheduled to give an address. There may be reports of hundreds of casualties. We are certain that all reports of the domestic attacks have been confirmed. Police and army units have been activated to repel these attacks by their own brothers in arms.

It must be noted that the DC area police had already been reeling from America's failed policing efforts. Last month three commanders of the Miniuteman Civil Defense Corps, a private military corporation, robbed a series of area banks. They murdered five police men and eight civilians before they were gunned down. Last week a group of five muslim criminals murdered their guards and escaped from the District of Columbia Correction Detention Facility. Between those two incidents and others the number of DC officers killed or wounded this year stands at fourty-one.

The escape itself come hours after a group of five Islamo-Fascist terrorists were returned to Yemen to assist the Saudi Government in the repression of the Yemeni people. That exchange happened two days after Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi promised to strike at the heart of America after a "failed" assassination attempt. We should note that this was the American's sole "contribution" to support the legitimate, secular government of Syria. America has otherwise continued funneling weapons to terrorists in Syria thru the Saudi regime.

Obama's spokesmen and Democratic media propagandists are tight lipped about these developments, but this is clearly a coordinated effort to destabilize the government. It's difficult to determine who is involved but unnamed officials indicate that this is the opening act for simultaneous coup and counter-coup, timed to take place during a terrorist attack in another location. We can't confirm if that first terrorist attack is a false flag attack or if American intelligence agencies chose to sit on the information.

This story will update as more details become available.

(It's Russia Times so you know it's not close to being true. But I wanted to make sure the game had something like an epilogue.)

# ? Sep 28, 2016 06:13

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 2, 2024 14:35

Loel: Jun 4, 2012; "For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.

Ruh roh

# ? Sep 28, 2016 06:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Constitutional Convention PbP (MOD APPROVED)

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